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Old 2010-03-29, 20:16   Link #7281
Renall
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Is she in fact a hack writer though? Supposedly, she thinks she's close to the truth, and if we buy her claim to be the author of 3-6, she's managed to avoid any major plot holes that we know of. A hack wouldn't even care about that kind of thing.
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Old 2010-03-29, 20:25   Link #7282
Kylon99
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Well, self-insertion is kind of a cheezy thing to do. 8) Ok, but if not hack then... a troll writer? Maybe she's intentionally obfuscating the truth then?
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Old 2010-03-29, 20:33   Link #7283
Jan-Poo
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It just occurred to me a possible solution to the EP3 first twilight.

this theory assumes shkanon theory is true.

In that case the Chapel door was left open since the beginning.
Shannon made it so that the first one to be most likely discovered was her own corpse. And that's why she faked her death in the parlour in the first floor. That was one of the most easily rooms to break into.

Once they have found her body obviously they would all go on that trip she set up to look for the rest of the corpses. That means she had all the time to go out from the broken window, close herself inside the chapel and disguise as Kanon.

This kind of trick would have a chance of going wrong, but it was repeatedly said that this is how Beatrice acts.
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Old 2010-03-29, 20:51   Link #7284
Kaisos Erranon
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Actually, speaking of that, I've been considering the plausibility of Shkannon... and have concluded that it is extraordinarily implausible, simply because of the number of people that would have to know about Shkannon and be lying about it.

Let's think for a minute, and ignore all scenes that are obviously magical and thus unreliable.


-Natsuhi and Krauss would have to know their secret, since they're the ones that write up the schedules. Kinzo would also have to know, since he was the one who hired them.
-Genji has seen the two of them together, and as the head servant, he'd have to know. Gohda and Kumasawa, although I don't believe either of them saw them together in Ep1, were definitely all in front of the chapel in Ep2, and may have been together at other not-obviously-magical times.


Excluding Jessica for a minute, that's everyone who lives or works on the island. But what about all the others?


-Rosa sees the two of them together in Ep2, at the same time that Gohda and Kumasawa do.
-I believe Hideyoshi and Rudolf see the two corpses in Ep3, but I suppose it's at least somewhat plausible that Shannon managed to run to the chapel without being seen. I don't believe Eva and Kyrie are with that particular search party, but I could be wrong and need to read Ep3 again.
-In Ep4, we hear over the phones that Kyrie, Nanjo, Shannon and Kanon are all in the same room at the same time... so those two would have to be lying, as well.


This leaves only Battler, George, Jessica, Maria, and Eva who have definitely never seen Shannon and Kanon together as of Ep4, if my count is correct. But what about Ep5 and 6?


-In Ep5, Shannon and Kanon appear in front of Eva, Hideyoshi, Rudolf, Kyrie, and Rosa (and Battler, but he doesn't count anymore). I don't know how reliable you'd consider this scene, but let's just say it clears Eva. There may have been other times she's witnessed them together as well.
-Erika must also be in on the secret, as, being the detective, her reliable perspective would see them as one person.
-I've been told that Ep6 features a flashback with George and Jessica alongside Shannon and Kanon... if, of course, you consider that scene reliable.


This means that, if my memory is serving correctly, every single person on Rokkenjima must be part of a vast conspiracy to keep either Battler or Maria from learning the truth about Shannon and Kanon. And if you want to count in Battler as being a part of the secret, thanks to chrono's theory about fake scenes and the gold truth, everyone is doing this to keep it from Maria, and I don't need to say how pointless that would be.

What do you think, everyone?
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Old 2010-03-29, 21:03   Link #7285
Marion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
It just occurred to me a possible solution to the EP3 first twilight.

this theory assumes shkanon theory is true.

In that case the Chapel door was left open since the beginning.
Shannon made it so that the first one to be most likely discovered was her own corpse. And that's why she faked her death in the parlour in the first floor. That was one of the most easily rooms to break into.

Once they have found her body obviously they would all go on that trip she set up to look for the rest of the corpses. That means she had all the time to go out from the broken window, close herself inside the chapel and disguise as Kanon.

This kind of trick would have a chance of going wrong, but it was repeatedly said that this is how Beatrice acts.
Shannon can't be faking her death - Beatrice confirms her dead in red right after the discovery and says it was instant.

Beatrice was trying to make EP 3 a lot easier for Battler than EP 2, so I see no reason for her to be tricky with the red. Unless you're suggesting she goes into the chapel and just suddenly dies.
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Old 2010-03-29, 21:26   Link #7286
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Spoiler for size:
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Old 2010-03-29, 21:51   Link #7287
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Spoiler for size:
If that's true shkanon really is a dirty trick in episode 5. For a majority of the episodes shkanon relies on fantasy scenes to point how they could be the same person by using the Sakutarou definition of furniture. In episode 5 you have to use Battler's perspective not being reliable as an excuse, which is the opposite pattern of the question arcs.

After rereading the study scene though I think it might just be a pure meta scene. One could claim it's written from Dlanor's perspective since her and the rest of Eiserne Jungfrau take up a majority of the screentime.
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Old 2010-03-29, 22:19   Link #7288
LyricalAura
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Is she in fact a hack writer though? Supposedly, she thinks she's close to the truth, and if we buy her claim to be the author of 3-6, she's managed to avoid any major plot holes that we know of. A hack wouldn't even care about that kind of thing.
I wonder. EP1 and EP2 shared a characteristic middlegame that almost totally vanished when Tohya took over the writing. EP3 does a pretty lousy job of setting up a witch illusion and only has one locked room -- and that one is really mechanical compared to the previous two games. EP4 has only one locked room and doesn't even bother trying with the stakes. And EP5 and EP6 don't explore past the second twilight at all.

Maybe Tohya's avoiding proper mid-game twilights because she never really understood them completely? I mean, obviously she got something out of them, but I wonder if she really reached the motivations underneath the tricks.
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Old 2010-03-29, 22:23   Link #7289
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And how many locked rooms do 1-2 have, really? Think about it.
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Old 2010-03-29, 22:34   Link #7290
Kaisos Erranon
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@chrono:

I must have missed it earlier... so your theory is that the games are presented as "the truth as Battler understands it"?

Uh. That directly contradicts how Ep2, 3 and 4 play out, that is, as Beatrice and Battler watching, say, a play, one which they are able to pause at will to discuss and argue about. The anime takes this VERY literally, what with the meta-frames being replaced a paused, black-and-white world.

I mean, it's an interesting theory, but all it really does is allow you to say that "every scene that Battler doesn't see is automatically fake", which allows you to easily dismiss details that don't agree with your version of events. Poirot would have a field day making fun of your method.

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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Kinzo was probably in charge of the schedules for the -on servants until he died, and Genji probably took over that part of the illusion of Kinzo for Natsuhi.
Also, remember that there are usually only 2-3 servants on the island at a time, even though there are 5 on duty during the family conference and several others mentioned at other times. The odds that both Shannon and Kanon would be selected for the same shift are fairly low until the time of the family conference, so there's no reason Krauss and Natsuhi need to know.
Nope. Krauss is the one who makes the schedules for all the servants. If not outright stated, I KNOW it's suggested in Ep1.

You're saying that Natsuhi and Krauss wouldn't know who their own servants are? That's ludicrous. Besides, even if I can't present evidence for it, I doubt that Shannon and Kanon haven't had the same shift before.

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It makes perfect sense that she would claim both Shannon and Kanon were together at certain times when Battler isn't looking.
I don't see why she'd tell him that at all. Battler never suspected that they weren't two people. Why would she specifically say YES, THEY ARE REALLY TWO PEOPLE, THIS IS THE TRUTH, ALSO, I KILLED EVERYONE WITH MAGICAL GIRLS.

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For EP3, no one was fooled by the corpses. Everyone realized they were fake, but since Nanjo had proclaimed all of them dead, they decided to play along for the time being.
...Where is your evidence that this happened? If they were, indeed, playing dead, it's more likely that Nanjo injected them with some toxin while he was examining them, since Beato declared their deaths in red almost immediately after they were found. And if they WERE faking up until such and such a time, how were they killed?

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All of the women thought it was a joke until Rosa's corpse was found, at which time Kyrie says "I thought it was all a prank, but I guess not".
Does she actually say this? Refresh my memory, please.

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The next scene we see her, she tells Rudolf that she wants to go to the mansion, and they take all witnesses of the fake corpses except Natsuhi and Krauss, whom they don't trust. In other words, it's possible that Shannon's corpse was just a dummy or someone else's corpse. Since it was the first one everyone saw, if they realized it was a fake, they would assume that all the rest of the corpses were fakes.
Weren't fake corpses specifically denied by red? The no body double tricks exist bit? I mean, sure, Beato didn't say the red applied to all games, but... I don't think we should be relying on dummy corpses or Erika's washed-up body at this point.

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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
In EP4, we can't trust any words said over the phone. Eventually, Kyrie claims all kinds of magic occurred while presumably someone is shooting a gun all around her. If they were at gunpoint the entire time, they would have gone along with the story.
Again, I don't see why the culprit has to specifically draw attention to the point that Shannon and Kanon are different people... how is it important that Battler keeps thinking this? He has no reason to doubt that fact at all.

And trusting words said over the phone has nothing to do with my point anyway.

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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
As I've mentioned before, Battler learns of Sayo's secret in EP5 and decides to help keep it. Since all scenes are "the story Battler would tell at the end of the game", it makes sense that he would "tell" anyone that he saw both of them together.
I've outlined my problems with this interpretation above.

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In other words, the only surviving people who have to know about Shkanon are Genji, Kumasawa, Sayo, and sometimes Battler.
Great way to cut down all my objections, there. The ability of an author to say "it never happened, so it doesn't matter" is the entire danger behind fake scenes, like I've said before.

Let's assume that your Battler-centric theory isn't true for a minute, and let's take the structure of the games at face value. How, then, do you explain how practically everyone knows about about Shkannon and yet feels the need to keep it a secret?
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Old 2010-03-29, 23:03   Link #7291
LyricalAura
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And how many locked rooms do 1-2 have, really? Think about it.
It's not so much the number of locked rooms as an observation about Toyha's middlegame style. Both 1 and 2 presented a second twilight room constructed by hearsay. EP1 followed up with a fake death, confirmed by hearsay, and EP2 followed with another locked room, also constructed by hearsay. There seems to be a common factor at work, but Tohya never explores that in any of the following games.

If I were to speculate a bit, Genji seems to always be at the center of those incidents. But Tohya always kills him off in the first twilight or ends the game before he can do anything. In the latest game she barely even gave him any lines. So even if she understood the basic mechanism of the 1-2 tricks and incorporated it into later games, I have to wonder if she really figured out the reason the tricks took place. If she doesn't get Genji's motivations, that would explain why she writes him as Roboservant and barely involves him in anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erannon
...Where is your evidence that this happened? If they were, indeed, playing dead, it's more likely that Nanjo injected them with some toxin while he was examining them, since Beato declared their deaths in red almost immediately after they were found. And if they WERE faking up until such and such a time, how were they killed?
Beato didn't pronounce the victims dead until everyone got back to the guesthouse, so there was a period of about half an hour to kill them in. IIRC, Kyrie and Rosa were unaccounted for during that time, and someone in the search party could have lagged behind and stabbed the victims as well (coughNanjocough).

I do clearly remember that someone voiced a suspicion that the servants were faking, but I don't remember who it was.
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Old 2010-03-29, 23:04   Link #7292
CainSonozaki
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Shannon can't be faking her death - Beatrice confirms her dead in red right after the discovery and says it was instant.

Beatrice was trying to make EP 3 a lot easier for Battler than EP 2, so I see no reason for her to be tricky with the red. Unless you're suggesting she goes into the chapel and just suddenly dies.
But it never said when exactly they died. And remember Beato brought her back and she was killed again with George. I'm actually working on a theory which uses the possibility that shannon faked her death to try and solve episode 3. i got pretty much everything except the first twilight, and Nanjo.

I just need help trying ti figure where people were around whe the first twilight happened. i know the adults were together and the cousins were together adn i dont remember about nanjo.
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Old 2010-03-29, 23:04   Link #7293
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Speaking of people having to lie in order to keep Shkannon from being exposed, do you guys realize just how much lying there is going on in the series? (Of course I don't think the entire family is capable of concentrating on one lie; groups within everybody concentrating on several different ones, ok...)

When I was compiling my faction list, this is what I observed. This is a list of suspicious actions taken in front of Battler in EP1-4.

Krauss - Lying about Kinzo
Natsuhi - Lying about Kinzo
Genji - Lying about Kinzo
Shannon - Lying about Kinzo
Kanon - Lying about Kinzo
Maria - Lying about Beatrice, Lying about seeing magic
Nanjo - Lying about Kinzo, Lying about First Twilight, Lying about Ring
Kumasawa - Lying about Kinzo, Lying about seeing magic
Gouda - Lying about Kinzo, Lying about seeing magic
Kyrie - Lying about seeing magic
Rosa - Lying about Kinzo, Lying about seeing magic
Jessica - Lying about seeing magic
Eva - Lying about finding the gold, killing Battler


There's probably more examples. I'm thinking Battler is the only one who doesn't lie at this point. 8)
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Old 2010-03-29, 23:12   Link #7294
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
I do clearly remember that someone voiced a suspicion that the servants were faking, but I don't remember who it was.
That was me! 8)

The suspicion being that in almost every episode people were faking their deaths and then they were killed afterwards. Sometimes they are found after they have been killed *and* moved, so it doesn't preclude the possibility of a fake.


Also that this might be a way to discover new motivations and conspiracies behind some of the actions. That if it happened for one, two, three episodes that maybe it would've happened for all the episodes, except maybe something got in the way. Like circle painting, body moving, kinzo burning or kanon faking. 8)
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Old 2010-03-29, 23:29   Link #7295
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Shannon can't be faking her death - Beatrice confirms her dead in red right after the discovery and says it was instant.

Beatrice was trying to make EP 3 a lot easier for Battler than EP 2, so I see no reason for her to be tricky with the red. Unless you're suggesting she goes into the chapel and just suddenly dies.
I said this before,but when Kanon was found he had a gunshot wound to the stomach Shannon's wound was to her chest. So if they are the same person Shannon should have two different wounds, but when Battler finds her dead with George this isn't shown.

There is a red about each of the people being shot too. the red doesn't only say they all got killed instantly it also says each of them were shot. I don't think faking works here.
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Old 2010-03-29, 23:46   Link #7296
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Spoiler for insane size:
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Old 2010-03-29, 23:53   Link #7297
Judoh
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Spoiler for insane size:
The dirty trick is that it's possible to claim that any scene not narrated by Erika is narrated by Battler therefore those scenes are not reliable. It's as dubious as the devil's proof. This simply isn't true though. We have 5or 6 different narratives in episode 5. Erika narrative. Man from 19 years ago narrative, everyone narrative, Natsuhi Narrative, and Battler narrative, with a possibility in the study scene of a meta narrative. The dirty trick is you can claim that Battler is narrating when Erika isn't and your theory can be seen as true because you can deny the entire scene.
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Old 2010-03-29, 23:59   Link #7298
chronotrig
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The dirty trick is that it's possible to claim that any scene not narrated by Erika is narrated by Battler therefore those scenes are not reliable. It's as dubious as the devil's proof. This simply isn't true though. We have 4 or 5 different narratives in episode 5. Erika narrative. Man from 19 years ago narrative, Natsuhi Narrative, and Battler narrative, with a possibility in the study scene of a meta narrative. The dirty trick is you can claim that Battler is narrating when Erika isn't and your theory can be seen as true because you can deny the entire scene.
Wait a second. Remember that EP5 is a core arc. It is very possible (and I did most of it) to reach something like my Battler-centric theory in the question arcs. So, in a sense, EP5 is a test of your EP1-4 answer. And it just so happens that the Battler-centric theory, which is needed to make Shkanontrice work in EP1-4, solves the problem in EP5 perfectly, and in fact, it explains several things that don't make sense otherwise.

Also, you can't deny entire scenes with my theory. If something isn't true in a scene, there must be a clear reason why. Otherwise, Knox would be violated. There is a clear indication that Sayo gave Battler the head's ring at about midnight, which explains why Battler would know her secret and try to keep it. And this happens the first time that Battler sees them together, which can't be a coincidence.

In other words, it's only a dirty trick if you haven't figured out the true rules of the game.
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Old 2010-03-30, 00:05   Link #7299
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
That was me! 8)

The suspicion being that in almost every episode people were faking their deaths and then they were killed afterwards. Sometimes they are found after they have been killed *and* moved, so it doesn't preclude the possibility of a fake.
No, I meant actually in the story. I think it was Rosa, but it's been a while since I read it.

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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Also that this might be a way to discover new motivations and conspiracies behind some of the actions. That if it happened for one, two, three episodes that maybe it would've happened for all the episodes, except maybe something got in the way. Like circle painting, body moving, kinzo burning or kanon faking. 8)
To elaborate on what I said a couple posts back, I strongly suspect that most of the middlegame events in EP1 and EP2 can be explained by the servants trying to catch the culprit. Something like this, although I've probably got some details wrong:

Spoiler for Episode 1 middlegame:

Spoiler for Episode 2 middlegame:
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Old 2010-03-30, 00:08   Link #7300
Judoh
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You haven't written much about Battler centric theory right? So I don't really know much about what it is. What I was talking about is mostly the scenes where Shannon and Kanon are seen together. And how if Battler is narrating you can deny they are together because Ryukishi says his perspective is not reliable.

What I'm pointing out is that there are certain narratives that are not Battler's and not Erika's that he never said weren't reliable.

For example when Erika is introduced in episode 5 the person narrating isn't Battler and it isn't Erika. It's possible that it's narrated from the perspective of everyone in the room that's why the narration can say that if you count everyone there it makes up 18 people.

As another example in the closet scene the narration switches from Natsuhi saying I did this I did that to she did this she did that. So the people narrating are Natsuhi and whoever is watching her and it switches back and forth between these narratives.

But for some reason only Battler's perspective is unreliable according to the interview. Does that mean none of the other people who narrate the episode are reliable? or are there some reliable narratives in episode 5 that aren't Erika's?
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