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Old 2010-03-30, 00:10   Link #7301
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I said this before,but when Kanon was found he had a gunshot wound to the stomach Shannon's wound was to her chest. So if they are the same person Shannon should have two different wounds, but when Battler finds her dead with George this isn't shown.

There is a red about each of the people being shot too. the red doesn't only say they all got killed instantly it also says each of them were shot. I don't think faking works here.
No, it says they had signs of what appeared to be fatal gunshot wounds. Nanjo thought they could have also been made by a spear-like object. For all we know, they weren't even really wounded when they were first discovered, just made up to look like they were.
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Old 2010-03-30, 00:14   Link #7302
chronotrig
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@Judoh:
I think I see where the problem is. These games show the story as Battler would tell it at the end of the game. Since Battler didn't see all the scenes, scenes in which he wasn't present would be either in an over-perspective or through the eyes of someone he heard the story from.

In other words, we can finally do away with all of that confusion about whose perspective is active at what time. That would just make the story messy and confusing. With the Battler-centric theory, we know that whatever scene we are seeing, it is something that Battler thinks is the truth for some reason. Part of the puzzle is figuring out what that reason is for each scene.
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Old 2010-03-30, 00:16   Link #7303
Judoh
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
No, it says they had signs of what appeared to be fatal gunshot wounds. Nanjo thought they could have also been made by a spear-like object. For all we know, they weren't even really wounded when they were first discovered, just made up to look like they were.
Regardless: All of them had wounds resembling gunshot wounds which became fatal!

became is the key word here. A fake wound does not become fatal later.

You can also argue that "all of them" refers "to all 5 people". Therefore Kanon and Shannon have different wounds.
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Old 2010-03-30, 00:22   Link #7304
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Regardless: All of them had wounds resembling gunshot wounds which became fatal!

became is the key word here. A fake wound does not become fatal later.
彼ら全員には致命傷となった銃創と思わしき傷痕があったぞ!
All of them had signs resembling (gunshot wounds which became fatal)!

Also, fake wounds can become fatal if someone rams a metal stake through them.
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Old 2010-03-30, 00:25   Link #7305
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
彼ら全員には致命傷となった銃創と思わしき傷痕があったぞ!
All of them had signs resembling (gunshot wounds which became fatal)!

Also, fake wounds can become fatal if someone rams a metal stake through them.
Wouldn't that be a different wound then if the stakes were used after? I guess they can be fatal that way, but it sounds like there are two different wounds and the red can only refer to one of them.
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Old 2010-03-30, 00:35   Link #7306
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
To elaborate on what I said a couple posts back, I strongly suspect that most of the middlegame events in EP1 and EP2 can be explained by the servants trying to catch the culprit. Something like this, although I've probably got some details wrong:
I think that's a pretty good outline. I suspect the servants of further conspiring as well, although not actually commiting any real murders. Who knows... but...

In your theories, why do they go ahead and stake the corpses? It suggests to me that they were going to kill the people if they intended to stake them. Unlike EP4 where someone just put the stake down beside the victim...

I can kind of understand though. I feel it is the servants who actually have the stakes, but that necessitates them murdering or at the very least disfiguring a corpse. I can't reconcile that with them searching for the culprit. Unless both sides are guilty. 8)
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Old 2010-03-30, 00:35   Link #7307
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Wouldn't that be a different wound then if the stakes were used after? I guess they can be fatal that way, but it sounds like there are two different wounds and the red can only refer to one of them.
The point is that you can interpret that red as only saying that the search party thought the victims had fatal gunshot wounds, rather than that they actually did have fatal gunshot wounds at that time. Someone could come along later and stab the victims in a way that wouldn't clash with Nanjo's autopsy, so nobody (read: Eva and Battler) would notice a problem later. As long as the real stabbing/whatever happened before everyone got back to the guesthouse, there's no contradiction.
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Old 2010-03-30, 00:52   Link #7308
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
I think that's a pretty good outline. I suspect the servants of further conspiring as well, although not actually commiting any real murders. Who knows... but...

In your theories, why do they go ahead and stake the corpses? It suggests to me that they were going to kill the people if they intended to stake them. Unlike EP4 where someone just put the stake down beside the victim...

I can kind of understand though. I feel it is the servants who actually have the stakes, but that necessitates them murdering or at the very least disfiguring a corpse. I can't reconcile that with them searching for the culprit. Unless both sides are guilty. 8)
For EP1 I suggested they were responsible for the 2nd twilight stakes only because they were pretty clearly responsible for the ones used in the 4th and 5th twilights. The 6th-8th twilights imply somebody else had access to them though (unless the murderer in that case was Kanon), so I could go either way.

For EP2 it's not really necessary that they be the ones who staked Jessica, so they could have just found her that way. The culprit definitely had access to stakes in this episode because of the situation in Natsuhi's room.

The million dollar question is where the stakes are kept during the game. Carrying more than one or maybe two of them around doesn't seem feasible. I'd say Kinzo's study if not for EP1, but the 6th-8th twilights seem to rule that out. So, I've been wondering if maybe they were already passed out to various people as part of the fake death thing, and the culprit's been picking them up from the bodies.
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Old 2010-03-30, 00:59   Link #7309
Judoh
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
The point is that you can interpret that red as only saying that the search party thought the victims had fatal gunshot wounds, rather than that they actually did have fatal gunshot wounds at that time. Someone could come along later and stab the victims in a way that wouldn't clash with Nanjo's autopsy, so nobody (read: Eva and Battler) would notice a problem later. As long as the real stabbing/whatever happened before everyone got back to the guesthouse, there's no contradiction.
So your theory is basically "the killed people were rekilled in a way resembling the autopsy later" ?

I guess there aren't any problems with this, but I wonder why Kanon was given the same type of wound as Kyrie when he was restabbed then?
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Old 2010-03-30, 01:10   Link #7310
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
So your theory is basically "the killed people were rekilled in a way resembling the autopsy later" ?

I guess there aren't any problems with this, but I wonder why Kanon was given the same type of wound as Kyrie when he was restabbed then?
Coincidence, I guess? Kanon's death is confined to before 7am when Beato confirmed it in red. Kyrie died much later in the day and got staked on top of that, so I don't think there needs to be any particular connection between the two.
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Old 2010-03-30, 03:19   Link #7311
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Maria - Lying about Beatrice, Lying about seeing magicr
Maria isn't lying about seeing Beatrice or seeing magic; she actually did meet with a Beatrice and she never actually SAW the magic, as Ep6 explores, I believe. She is, however, lying about Kinzo.

Just pointing that out.

Spoiler for rebuttal:

There is no way the games are presented based around Battler's interpretation after-the-fact, but rather the Game Master weaving a story of fantasy for their opponent to disprove, in other words, exactly how we assumed it to be in the first place.
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Old 2010-03-30, 03:38   Link #7312
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Maria isn't lying about seeing Beatrice or seeing magic; she actually did meet with a Beatrice and she never actually SAW the magic, as Ep6 explores, I believe. She is, however, lying about Kinzo.

Just pointing that out.
Oh yah, technically she doesn't think she is lying. Although she is...

Wait a second! Speaking about the magic cup thing in EP6. Erika just assumes Maria was the one who put the candy under the cup... but... maybe she really ISN'T lying? What if someone placed it there for her? Quick, who in the room is the most likely candidate?! Jessica? George?

Did everyone realize this but me? heh... heh...

Wow, wait a second. What if Maria has never been lying at all and everything that she claims to have seen or done was done for her? I mean Jessica was the one who gave the scorpion bracelet charm to Natsuhi. Here we were trying to think of 'how can the culprit know there was a scorpion charm there'... but that's not right. I mean, the obvious answer was Jessica let someone else know, on purpose!

Geez... I think you can solve Umineko just by watching Maria, rather than Battler! Maybe this is why he keeps saying, "Without love it can't be seen."

It sorta makes sense. If Battler is the litmus test for seeing the truth then Maria must be the litmus test for seeing 'magic.' Since people thought she was the Black King compared to Battler's White King.

Last edited by Kylon99; 2010-03-30 at 03:44. Reason: More ideas.
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Old 2010-03-30, 03:46   Link #7313
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Oh yah, technically she doesn't think she is lying. Although she is...

Wait a second! Speaking about the magic cup thing in EP6. Erika just assumes Maria was the one who put the candy under the cup... but... maybe she really ISN'T lying? What if someone placed it there for her? Quick, who in the room is the most likely candidate?! Jessica? George?

Did everyone realize this but me? heh... heh...
Nanjo did say everybody in the ushiromiya family and the servants had placed sweets secretly somewhere once or twice. He said this in episode two. If George was there he is a very good candidate. When he was asked if he would he said "who knows" trying not to admit it in front of maria, which implies he's done it at least once.
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Old 2010-03-30, 03:51   Link #7314
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I think both George and Jessica are in on the plots then. Not sure how far they go, although from my first twilight chart it seems those two are fairly involved.

This is both because of the coaching we suspect George of having done and Jessica for being basically the only other girl who can coach Maria when she's there.

I'm going to have to go back through the game again. Sigh.
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Old 2010-03-30, 03:54   Link #7315
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Wow, wait a second. What if Maria has never been lying at all and everything that she claims to have seen or done was done for her? I mean Jessica was the one who gave the scorpion bracelet charm to Natsuhi. Here we were trying to think of 'how can the culprit know there was a scorpion charm there'... but that's not right. I mean, the obvious answer was Jessica let someone else know, on purpose!
The even more obvious answer is that Jessica is the one who scratched up Natsuhi's door.
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Old 2010-03-30, 04:02   Link #7316
Kylon99
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Well, someone mentioned to me regarding the Circle Painter as being Genji, based on analyzing EP1-4 and seeing that the painting stopped once he died. I was assuming that Jessica didn't have that job but someone else did in the Beatrice Faction. I haven't seen or done the necessary analysis to say it's Genji though.
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Old 2010-03-30, 04:04   Link #7317
Judoh
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I'm willing to bet Eva sent Maria playing with red finger paints. No hints for it. I just think that answer would just be so cute~
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Old 2010-03-30, 04:51   Link #7318
chronotrig
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@Kaisos Erranon:

Spoiler for size:
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Old 2010-03-30, 05:09   Link #7319
Kylon99
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Man... if you go back to EP1 Shannon after reading through to EP6 Shannon... EP1 Shannon feels like she had brain damage or something... The character 'development' is quite apparent if you suddenly jump back.

I'm not really believing she has the ability to carry out her duties, never mind masterminding a murder in EP1. EP4, 5, 6 Shannon, maybe.
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Old 2010-03-30, 05:24   Link #7320
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Man... if you go back to EP1 Shannon after reading through to EP6 Shannon... EP1 Shannon feels like she had brain damage or something... The character 'development' is quite apparent if you suddenly jump back.

Eh? Brain damage? what part of the episode are you referring to?
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