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Old 2009-07-20, 00:35   Link #721
Slate
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
I doubt that. Given the fact she was hidden from view unlike the other corpses I will bet on her not being dead at that point.
There's a lot of liquid there for tears...and it is raining...
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Old 2009-07-20, 00:45   Link #722
Marion
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There was no mention of her crying in the VN. And furthermore, even if it was raining she should have been in the shed long enough for the tears to dry up.

If you want to make up theories off from the anime, when it doesn't even correlate to the VN, then good luck with that, but there was no mention of her eyes being teared up through any point of view in that shed. DEEN just likes being Dramatic.

Of course I'm not saying Shannon couldn't be alive. Just that you shouldn't base that idea off her tears.
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Old 2009-07-20, 00:48   Link #723
Ssol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
There was no mention of her crying in the VN. And furthermore, even if it was raining she should have been in the shed long enough for the tears to dry up.

If you want to make up theories off from the anime, when it doesn't even correlate to the VN, then good luck with that, but there was no mention of her eyes being teared up through any point of view in that shed. DEEN just likes being Dramatic
As it has been argued by many others before me, the fact that she is hidden from view is the primary reason why her death at that point is suspicious. The anime pic just adds a little fuel to that fire. Having read all 4 episodes of the VN I wouldn't make up theories based on the anime alone.
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Old 2009-07-20, 01:40   Link #724
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For the "Shannon = alive in the shed" theory:

Isn't it extremely unrealistic for the survivors to not even check who the corpses really were? For "Shannon = alive" to be possible, that would mean that every single person inside the shed were in on the crime (That would mean Eva and Natsuhi working together as well).

If somebody innocent were to insist on checking the status/identities of the bodies, that plan would fall apart right there.

Imagine that it was from an innocent person's POV (let's say Battler).
"OMG Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa, Krauss, Gohda, and 1 more person are dead!!!
UWOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooo.... wait, who's that 1 other person?"
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Old 2009-07-20, 01:53   Link #725
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Someone suggested that the "tears" on Shannon's face could be drops of rain water off of one of the people that found her. Just dramatic placement for effect. However her being alive (or just died) would make the tears being more meaningful, though again, that is "probably nothing".

As for her being alive? Eva and Natsuhi don't seem to enter the shed, only the two servants, the doctor, and Eva's husband (why can't I remember his name?). He is the closest to her so if she is alive, he should know, unless the other five being dead and the makeup or whatever makes him suppose she's dead too. However that would mean that Shannon is a very good actor.

You may find out in August if it means anything.
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Old 2009-07-20, 01:59   Link #726
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rei-Tenshi View Post
For the "Shannon = alive in the shed" theory:

Isn't it extremely unrealistic for the survivors to not even check who the corpses really were? For "Shannon = alive" to be possible, that would mean that every single person inside the shed were in on the crime (That would mean Eva and Natsuhi working together as well).

If somebody innocent were to insist on checking the status/identities of the bodies, that plan would fall apart right there.

Imagine that it was from an innocent person's POV (let's say Battler).
"OMG Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa, Krauss, Gohda, and 1 more person are dead!!!
UWOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooo.... wait, who's that 1 other person?"
Just because multiple people went in doesn't mean each one carefully examined every body. Only one person is needed to identify a body.
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Old 2009-07-20, 02:12   Link #727
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Witch Drugs View Post
Spoiler:
Spoiler for Ep 5 Opening:


Edit: Damn. Looks like someone beat me to it. Guess that's my fault for skipping ahead a few pages.

Also, about the whole No human can kill Kanon and someone else using Kanon's name. Kanon is not his actual name, remember, it could be more of a title that any servant can inherit. Like Shannon's real name being Sayo.
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Old 2009-07-20, 03:10   Link #728
Rei-Tenshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slate View Post
Just because multiple people went in doesn't mean each one carefully examined every body. Only one person is needed to identify a body.
But that means the plan relied too much on the innocent guys not checking on the bodies themselves, which is unrealistic to me. If somebody really INSISTED on checking the bodies, their plan would be exposed right away.
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Old 2009-07-20, 03:24   Link #729
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Originally Posted by Rei-Tenshi View Post
But that means the plan relied too much on the innocent guys not checking on the bodies themselves, which is unrealistic to me. If somebody really INSISTED on checking the bodies, their plan would be exposed right away.
...I just realized that two of the people who checked the bodies were the next ones to be killed...interesting...
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Old 2009-07-20, 04:44   Link #730
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shamisen View Post
Spoiler for Ep 5 Opening:
Spoiler for Red text: Regarding Kinzo...:

That should answer your question...
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Old 2009-07-20, 06:26   Link #731
Lady_Bernkastel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Witch Drugs View Post
I decided to write some of my thoughts on the opening... (Sorry if I repost on a screenshot or a text)
Spoiler for EP5 Opening:
Regarding the first pic...the red thing you marked as 1, is the ribbon on Maria's bag. The other thing marked as 2, isn't a hand...it's Maria's bag.
Just try to pause the scene a sec before, and you'll see for yourself.
Spoiler for saving space:
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Old 2009-07-20, 06:33   Link #732
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
As it has been argued by many others before me, the fact that she is hidden from view is the primary reason why her death at that point is suspicious. The anime pic just adds a little fuel to that fire. Having read all 4 episodes of the VN I wouldn't make up theories based on the anime alone.
Which is why you can also check the manga and see that they added tears there as well
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Old 2009-07-20, 06:50   Link #733
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rei-Tenshi View Post
For the "Shannon = alive in the shed" theory:

Isn't it extremely unrealistic for the survivors to not even check who the corpses really were? For "Shannon = alive" to be possible, that would mean that every single person inside the shed were in on the crime (That would mean Eva and Natsuhi working together as well).

If somebody innocent were to insist on checking the status/identities of the bodies, that plan would fall apart right there.

Imagine that it was from an innocent person's POV (let's say Battler).
"OMG Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa, Krauss, Gohda, and 1 more person are dead!!!
UWOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooo.... wait, who's that 1 other person?"
Not necessarily, Shannon's body was "conveniently" further inside the shed and not everyone actually went inside. In the anime version it was almost completely hidden.

Hideyoshi supposedly is the one who has seen the body more closely, most probably Nanjo as well did it. Kanon was near Hideyoshi, we don't know how closely he looked at his sister body, but he certainly saw it.

As for the rest I doubt they could check if she was alive. Considering that George asks if there are only 5 bodies, it is safe to assume he couldn't see her at all. I don't think he isn't able to count to six. And if he saw the body even from a distance how could he not recognize a maid uniform?


Anyway if Hideyoshi was concealing something (it wasn't shannon, or she was alive oe who know what else), then that could be a good reason for him to tell George to not look.
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Old 2009-07-20, 07:06   Link #734
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Battler knew there were atleast 6 for sure, as he commented on the fact that "there are more corpses than I could count on my hand".
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Old 2009-07-20, 07:17   Link #735
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Well after reading more carefully it appears that in the novel Battler made a few steps inside. So he saw it, but not clearly enough to recognize it, He names instantly Rudolf Krauss Rosa and Kyrie, after a while he names Gohda, but not Shannon, ergo he can't see her well enough. Andt is said that george was standing outside and the sixth body was on a blind spot for him.
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Old 2009-07-20, 07:27   Link #736
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Oh and Kanon looked at Shannon. It was said that "he just stared blankly at her" or something similar
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Old 2009-07-20, 07:32   Link #737
Jan-Poo
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yes he was inside near Hideyoshi.

Kanon, Hideyoshi and Nanjo (most probably) all have seen Shannon closely. Battler has seen it, but not closely, George didn't see it at all.

The rest is unclear, but at best they have seen what Battler has seen.
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Old 2009-07-20, 09:17   Link #738
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Well, look at the people who supposedly witnessed Shannon's corpse close up:
Kanon, her 'brother', who probably wouldn't betray her no matter what.
Hideyoshi, who looked seriously disturbed in both VN and anime, so probably didn't give the corpses anything more than a glance.
Nanjo...well, if he was able to say Kinzo was alive when he was dead, maybe it went the other way around for Shannon...for whatever reason.

And actually, there's some even bigger support for at least one person being alive.
Turn the chessboard over. Why would someone dedicated to making closed rooms kill 6 people at once...but be left with a closed room that's easily broken?

The culprit killed many people at once in order to hide something about one specific corpse.
When people see a crowd of similar things, we automatically search for patterns. This is one of the oldest tricks in the mystery genre.
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Old 2009-07-20, 10:45   Link #739
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Well, look at the people who supposedly witnessed Shannon's corpse close up:
Kanon, her 'brother', who probably wouldn't betray her no matter what.
Hideyoshi, who looked seriously disturbed in both VN and anime, so probably didn't give the corpses anything more than a glance.
Nanjo...well, if he was able to say Kinzo was alive when he was dead, maybe it went the other way around for Shannon...for whatever reason.

And actually, there's some even bigger support for at least one person being alive.
Turn the chessboard over. Why would someone dedicated to making closed rooms kill 6 people at once...but be left with a closed room that's easily broken?

The culprit killed many people at once in order to hide something about one specific corpse.
When people see a crowd of similar things, we automatically search for patterns. This is one of the oldest tricks in the mystery genre.
The only strange thing is that Kanon was upset Shannon was chosen as a sacrifice in kitchen scene. Battler witnessed that, so it should be real.
But I thought something. The servants seem to know a lot about the "roulette", Beatrice and so on, but what if it is something completely different than what it appears? What if those words are a sort of "code" for something we don't know about? "Roulette", "sacrifices" and the like could have a different meaning.
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Old 2009-07-20, 10:46   Link #740
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Originally Posted by Nih View Post
I can't come up with anything to counter your theory, Chrono. And I think I examined all the possibilities. Not really sure what to say here except I love Umineko so much that I was even considering having the orange truth go against the red if the ending was too depressing.

Spoiler for personal thanks and thoughts and off topic:
Orange truth FTW.

About what you ask, it is best to talk with the Mods beforehand before you start posting like that. Many people found it was not so good when it just suddenly appeared without warning when they try to discuss something. I think Klash would be ok to discuss over parody and how to post them in a better way.
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