AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-04-03, 10:08   Link #7581
Ronove
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Hmm.... this may be odd..... but if we're referring to similarity of Sprites used, would that mean:

Gaap = Shannon? (Breast size).

Unless the Traps are meant to be for someone else, if anyone has another clue.
__________________
Ronove is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-03, 12:00   Link #7582
chronotrig
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
But that's precisely where we are now, we can't really find any argument to prove the fallacy of anyone's theory, pretty much anything is possible. How can a discussion can even be interesting with such premises?
Easy. If you're trying to build a theory based solely on red text, you have no chance of solving the game. Like Ryuukishi said in EP4 over and over again, it's impossible to solve Umineko unless you first understand witches and magic. In other words, you must figure out the premises and the rules of the game before moving forward.

Anyways, who says we need to be able to "prove a fallacy in anyone's theory"? Isn't the whole point of Umineko using a shotgun instead of a rifle? Ryuukishi has been hinting about this for years. The goal is not to find the only theory that can possibly work, it's to find a theory that explains the most in the most satisfying way.

When I was first trying to find my solution theory, I rarely needed to look at any red text, or even most of the murders in EP1-4. Part of the reason I was so confident is that my theory just happened to match up with more or less all of the magic scenes and murders with very little tweaking. I think the red text and the murders are there for us to test pre-existing theories, not to create theories from scratch. Umineko is just like Higurashi: the important thing is finding out what each Kakera has in common, then figuring out why they're all different.

I think starting from the red text is closer to Battler's anti-fantasy style of play: solving each puzzle closed room by closed room. At best, you have Erika's style of play: solve each game by itself and ignore all non-red scenes that disagree with your theory.
__________________
"The only moral it is possible to draw from this story is that one should never throw the letter 'q' into a privet bush. But, unfortunately, there are times when it is unavoidable."
--Hitchhikers


www.witch-hunt.com Theory page
chronotrig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-03, 13:38   Link #7583
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Anyways, who says we need to be able to "prove a fallacy in anyone's theory"? Isn't the whole point of Umineko using a shotgun instead of a rifle? Ryuukishi has been hinting about this for years. The goal is not to find the only theory that can possibly work, it's to find a theory that explains the most in the most satisfying way.
That's not what the shotgun metaphor means. It actually means quite the opposite; Battler's use of the metaphor essentially suggests he will solve the mystery by throwing out one crackpot blue theory after another with no regard for sensibility until one of them is correct. Disregarding whether this would actually work (in theory it would, for some unreasonable large number of blue texts), it's clearly stupid (it gives rise to his "small bombs" theory) and Battler eventually realizes that.

Not to be humorous, but "the theory that explains the most in the most satisfying way" is less like a rifle and shotgun and more like... a bomb. Wraps it all up with a single traceable cause. Everything points back to a single thing.

Which, incidentally, I completely reject. We don't know if the goal is to find a theory that "explains the most." We don't know that the goal is to find an answer that is "satisfying." He has gone so far as to speculate that the ending may not be as happy and resolute as he's done before. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean anything. He hasn't written it, and besides, he might just mean the ending is bittersweet for someone, or that the main culprit dies, or that the family survives and is happy but goes broke.

I mean, look at Author Theory. I doubt it's true, it's a little too hyper-meta to be digestible to anyone but the most intense literary critics, and it's probably just there as a metaphor to help some readers who are struggling with the whole multiple episodes and Game Master dynamic understand what's going on. But suppose it winds up being the answer. It doesn't "explain the most" of any theory, certainly not. It isn't particularly "satisfying," especially if a lot of the characters are really dead. However, there is no particular literary reason why it could not be a perfectly valid ending. I'm almost certain it won't be, of course, because I think ryukishi knows his audience and his audience is not a bunch of people who like bittersweet self-revelations, grossly unreliable narrators, and narratives that exist only to enforce the narrator's own inner conflict. But there are books which are written that way, and I'm sure he is aware of that.

Or, to be silly, imagine if some goofball thing like Gohda Accident Theory were true. It "explains the most" of a lot of theories (because it takes ridiculous stretches to make things fit), but it's not "satisfying" at all, because it's stupid.

But imagine the opposite for a moment: Somehow in ep7 or 8 or whatever he ends at, he gives us an answer. Compared to our theories, this answer is... incomplete. It leaves many things to wondering, it doesn't clarify every mysterious event, and it even goes so far as to leave some character's motives in the dark. But what if this answer, after everything that's led up to it, is "satisfying?" What if it's just right? It feels like the appropriate way to end things. It's certainly hard to imagine such a thing, but it could exist.

So why, precisely, must the ending be anything at all? If he has been one thing in interviews, it's evasive about his ultimate goal. He often speaks of what the characters "must" do, but not so much what he'll do as the author. He seems to like playing around with the mysteries, but at the same time, he seems to think it's possible to solve them as well. At other times, he acts like solving the mystery isn't the primary thrust of the tale at all. Who really knows where he's going with this?
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-03, 15:21   Link #7584
Marion
The Great Dine
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronove View Post
Hmm.... this may be odd..... but if we're referring to similarity of Sprites used, would that mean:

Gaap = Shannon? (Breast size).

Unless the Traps are meant to be for someone else, if anyone has another clue.
I still think Gaap is Jessica. Whether a crest or not is on doesn't matter - Furfur and Zepar don't have a crest, while their implied human counterparts do. Virgilia has the crest, but Kumasawa doesn't.

Plus with people going for Shannon being Beatrice, Jessica as Gaap is a good counterpart.

-Gaap and Beatrice are best friends. Jessica says she thinks of Shannon as her best friend.
-Both Gaap and Jessica have a fun, teasing side to them.
-Gaap kills George in EP 4. Jessica is aware that George is dead, when she shouldn't be.
-Although Gaap is suppose to be a visitor to the island, isn't everyone that doesn't live on the island a visitor in a way? In that case, that part shouldn't really be used in determining Gaap's counterpart.
-Nanjo is more closer to Kinzo than to Beatrice, so him being Gaap doesn't make sense. I can understand Zepar or Furfur being Kanon, because it says one of them is a male. But there is nothing implying that Gaap isn't a female - the giant breasts don't help either.
__________________

Sig by nocco
Marion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-03, 18:11   Link #7585
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Ah someone that understand "metagaming"! My "Witches & Woodlands" parody revolves around that.

Anyway the problem with red text is the fact that once you allow a single dirty trick there is no way to trust any red at all, because you don't know which other dirty trick could there be.
It's easier to come up with motives if you ignore the red at first. I like to take it into account though. If you look at it another way obsessing only over red text is probably what gets most people to stop thinking even though it is meant as a guide. A lot of people forget that a majority of the games aren't taking place in the meta world so even without that perspective you should be able to come up with a who, why, and how dunnit without violating the red. I think red is interesting color to choose anyway. He could have chosen a bunch of colors. Even gold would've made sense since we're fighting a golden witch. But he chose red? When in mysteries we have a concept called a red herring?

When I came up with the idea that George could be the mastermind there wasn't any red saying I was wrong. I had found out that bribery and ordering servants were possible ways for him to manipulate people. You can come up with a lot of motives too. It also satisfied Natsuhi's closed room in episode 2 because he was stabbed in a less than fatal spot. And Shannon has relatively the same kind of wound to the head that Jessica does in episode 4.

I think the red is a good guide some of the time, but it's not all of the time

Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Easy. If you're trying to build a theory based solely on red text, you have no chance of solving the game. Like Ryuukishi said in EP4 over and over again, it's impossible to solve Umineko unless you first understand witches and magic. In other words, you must figure out the premises and the rules of the game before moving forward.
There was another thing he said too. He said that people often are satisfied when they find what they think is the truth, but they never think about how there might be an "ultimate truth" that you'll find out about later on.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-03, 22:47   Link #7586
chronotrig
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
Anyways, a few more of my thoughts on the game. This isn't directly related to my theory, but it'll probably become important in the later core arcs. This is all just a theory, but I think it's a very likely one.

Spoiler for chrono:
__________________
"The only moral it is possible to draw from this story is that one should never throw the letter 'q' into a privet bush. But, unfortunately, there are times when it is unavoidable."
--Hitchhikers


www.witch-hunt.com Theory page

Last edited by chronotrig; 2010-04-03 at 23:15.
chronotrig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-03, 23:38   Link #7587
Kylon99
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
The question then becomes: does Lambda have a piece on the board that she controls in all games? Every other player (Battler, Beatrice, Erika/Bern) has a character that they are associated with, but we're never told about Lambda.
I remember hearing that as soon as Shannon admitted her name was Sayo, that the 2ch boards instantly picked up on Sayo == 34 == Lambdadelta (== Miyo). So that seems kinda obvious.

I've wondered about Lambda's piece as well since it seems all the others have their own pieces. Then I was thinking, what if Lambda has more than one piece?


This is kind of a stretch though...

George's name is actually 譲治 which is given the pronunciation, Jyo-ji. ジョージ essentially. I always thought it was kind of close to the on-yomi (Chinese reading) of 3 and 4 in Japanese.

3 can be 'zou'
4 is 'shi'

It definitely is a bit of a stretch. But what Gaap says about George's certainty during his battle seems to me that he's been 'blessed' by Lambdadelta to carry out his plans. Actually, lemme start another post about him...
Kylon99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-03, 23:55   Link #7588
Kylon99
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
When I came up with the idea that George could be the mastermind there wasn't any red saying I was wrong. I had found out that bribery and ordering servants were possible ways for him to manipulate people. You can come up with a lot of motives too. It also satisfied Natsuhi's closed room in episode 2 because he was stabbed in a less than fatal spot. And Shannon has relatively the same kind of wound to the head that Jessica does in episode 4.
I'm starting to finger George and Shannon as well. I've been going through EP1 again and I've just reached dinner; a few chapters in. This is what I've compiled on George and Shannon so far:

Oct 4, 1986 10:30am - The family arrives at the rose garden
- George is the one to call Maria over to look at the roses
- George has and uses a candy wrapper to mark the rose

Oct 4, 1986 1:30pm - The cousins talk on the beach.
- Shannon and George are the ones to talk about the Epitaph being human sacrifices.
- Shannon is the one to tell the story about Beatrice of Legend. Jessica says she doesn't know it. George says he also knows and heard it from his mother.
- Shannon says Kanon saw something like butterflies. She says he heard foot steps before.
- George asks Maria for a good luck charm for Jessica and Battler. "Some kind of amulet?" he says.
- Shannon verifies Maria's idea about the scorpion being protective
- George says, "It's true. The snake wraps around the emerald and protects it." (How the @#$! does he know?) He could be merely placating Maria.. or...
- Shannon has to hurry back first, George 'gives' her permission, essentially first voices that she should go.
- George is the one who says Maria "doesn't want us to be here now." (When Rosa was slapping her.)


So far the only source of information and magic has been George and Shannon. I'm sure the parents know the stories but it's only George who backs up Maria's idea of which magic works or not. This is highly suspicious if you add them together. "Information" and "Verification." It's interesting to note that Shannon knows the stories but Jessica does not.

Also, Maria so far has initiated nothing at ALL, except for two things: Noticing the torii shrine is gone and want to go find the rose again. The scorpion charm, the talk about magic, the talk about Beatrice, the talk about the Epitaph and the gold... all George and Shannon.

This is what I've gathered only up to 6pm of the first day in EP1! I should keep on going... I wonder how long the list will be.
Kylon99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-04, 00:37   Link #7589
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Something else I've noticed

Episode 1 Maria delivers letter. (George is the first to notice her take it out)

Episode 2- Maria doesn't deliver letter (George contributes in halloween convo and Jessica didn't seem to care, but then again Battler and the parents were talking too.)

Episode 3- Maria delivered a letter. Hideyoshi expected more letters to come, and he thought they were a prank from Kinzo but none came after Kinzo was found dead. (Which makes me think that the letters were intended to be seen as a prank by Kinzo.)

Episode 4- Completely different letters (sees kinzo?)

Epsiode 5 No letters (unless you think Erika represents them since they share the same purpose of challenging the epitaph)

Episode 6- ???

Originally I was thinking that odd numbered episodes have Maria delivering the letters and the even numbered ones don't, but that doesn't seem to be the case in episode 5 unless you count my theory of Erika being represented by the letters in episode 5.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-04-04 at 03:34.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-04, 03:51   Link #7590
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
George's situation is highly suspicous, and it is why I personally would consider him one of the strongest choices for "handler." We know he can't be the killer for most - if not all - of the murders in most of the games. Of course, the mere fact that someone isn't the killer and cannot be the killer doesn't mean they aren't involved in some way, and indeed preventing other survivors from bumping into the killer more or less necessitates that the killer either be able to perfectly determine where everyone is going to go and what they are going to do (which is frankly ridiculous), or to have someone "on the inside" who is going to suggest and herd the survivors.

I think part of the problem for the killers in ep1 and ep2 arises when one of the mothers (Natsuhi, whom we know is essentially innocent, and Rosa, whom I would suspect is) hijacks the group of survivors. It's possible these people are being somehow forced into acting as handlers (Natsuhi by the "man from 19 years ago," Rosa perhaps by Suit-Beatrice), but they would seem to have no clear means of communication.

On the other hand, if someone were acting as the "handler" who were part of the plan from the very beginning, it would be easier for them to influence events based on a predetermined plan. We would expect that the mother-hijacks would marginalize the amount of herding that is possible by this person.

Maria seems very likely - at least in the first two episodes - to act as a pawn of the handler, being manipulated into making noisy displays or creepy proclamations to draw suspicion from the handler. For instance, we know someone planted a letter in the study in ep1. Natsuhi claims George was free from suspicion because she was watching him. Does that mean he wasn't involved? Just because Natsuhi believes a person couldn't have planted the letter doesn't mean they couldn't have been the one who made someone else do it. In fact, it would be beneficial to the handler to not be kicked out of the study (otherwise it will be difficult to get the people who are still inside to leave), and thus to ensure that he or she is not suspicious to Natsuhi.

The question is more, who is the handler, how are they able to manipulate people, and how do they communicate or coordinate with the actual killer? If there isn't a handler, how does the killer predict what the survivors are going to do?
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-04, 03:59   Link #7591
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
I agree that he doesn't kill people most of the time.

I always thought Natsuhi's argument for why the cousins couldn't have put the letter there was stupid. Her argument was basically that all of them were in front of the portrait therefore they couldn't have placed that letter there that she never saw before. The problem is that it is possible. All they would have to do is place it on that table as they were walking toward the epitaph on the portrait. Natsuhi never saw the letter there before when she put the can of food down, but she was probably distracted by the portrait herself too later. So I had thought it was possible for Jessica or George to take a letter out of their pocket and place it on the table for a long time.

As for Rosa's keys. I've been thinking that George and Rosa exchanged a key at the time she received them. He was the closest to her at the time. But it's not even really necessary if the only key that they used was Natsuhi's key. And it's kind of strange that George had the key according to the red when Shannon is shown to take it from Natsuhi's Pocket. But then again I think the whole chapel scene is a hassle. I'd much rather George have the key before that by taking it when they discovered the first twilight. Then he has 2-3 hours to kill Nanjo and Kumasawa (Who I think faked their deaths that time) and do the whole thing with Natsuhi's room. Genji could possibly mark the door also.

If we're talking about handlers though think about the king piece. The king peice doesn't have that much fire power. He might be capable of killing maybe one or two pawns, but he doesn't have to kill anyone, and he's very vulnerable.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-04-04 at 04:25.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-04, 04:32   Link #7592
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
It seems probable that whoever had Natsuhi's key (which was almost certainly Shannon or George) had it already. The whole thing about going to the chapel just for the key seems ridiculous. But if it were in Natsuhi's pocket, why would Shannon or George have taken it? If it wasn't in her pocket, why did one of them have it, and when did they get it?
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-04, 05:26   Link #7593
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
It seems probable that whoever had Natsuhi's key (which was almost certainly Shannon or George) had it already. The whole thing about going to the chapel just for the key seems ridiculous. But if it were in Natsuhi's pocket, why would Shannon or George have taken it? If it wasn't in her pocket, why did one of them have it, and when did they get it?
I think it's safe think that the key was originally in Natsuhi's pocket. I was thinking the same way. George going back to the chapel only to get a key is just ridiculous unless there was some other motive for going there like maybe to get the murder weapon or the gold bars or something, but that's unlikely too.

Like I said that whole chapel scene is a hassle. It's over the top just to do all that for a single key. I'd much rather George take the Key from Natsuhi at the first twilight while He, Rosa, and Battler are talking about the contents of the letter. We don't know what happens at all during that period of time because the story switched it's focus onto Jessica, Kanon, Shannon, and Genji.

Explaining why they have the key when Natsuhi doesn't would bring too many weird conclusions. It's easier just to say that scene with the chapel happened at a different time, or the key was retrieved before that at a different time.

I thought that the scene in Natuhi's room provided a lot of potential murder weapons though. The mirror itself could be a potential murder weapon. The fountain pen or the letter opener they find could be used for that too. I was thinking that Shannon's bleeding was caused by a severe blow to the head and she was staked afterwards. The cause of the bleeding should be something else besides the stake. So I thought maybe she hit her head on a table or the corner of a bed because it seems she hit her head pretty hard.

I guess smashing her head with a mirror would work too. The container they have to pry open doesn't make the mirror seem all that large though.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-04-04 at 05:42.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-04, 09:09   Link #7594
Murderous Detective
Snarky Butler
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Canada
Just out of curiosity, does anyone NOT think Sayo is the culprit? In my opinion (and that's all I have) Ep. 2 makes her look like a bit of a red herring. It just seems as if everyone has decided conclusively that she's behind it and I keep wondering if this isn't a trick laid by Ryukishi07 to get everyone caught in one theory without considering others. I rarely see anyone discuss Jessitrice or Kyrietrice anymore because everyone says they've been jossed by the later episodes. IMO, Shannontrice would be just as jossed if people didn't spend so much time trying to make it fit into said episodes. So does anyone still support alternate theories? George, Jessica, and Kyrie all seem more suspicious than Sayo to me.

Edit: I do agree that Shannon probably played a part though. If George or Jessica is the culprit they'd almost certainly manipulate Shannon into aiding them.
__________________
"Thank you, Lord!" *Typhoon* "I take that back!"

Murderous Detective is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-04, 10:22   Link #7595
Marion
The Great Dine
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
I personally think Shannon/Kanon/Sayo/whatever we're calling her now is being used by the mastermind, rather than being the actual culprit. If Battler is suppose to be the white king on the board then the true mastermind should be the black king. However, Bern moved what she called 'a garbage piece' into the black queen position. If you believe in Shkannon then that piece is very likely them, because the piece was described as being 'anything the placer wished it to be'. A piece that can do that is a pawn when promoted.
__________________

Sig by nocco
Marion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-04, 10:41   Link #7596
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronotrig
Second, the Game Master can show the story using the gold text. Like the blue text, the complete gold text must tell the entire story from start to finish, but it is possible to contain falsehoods in it. This is the story that the Game Master "shows" to her opponents. The gold text is related to Beatrice, since the illusion of magic, which she represents, is considered "true" because someone believes in it. In Umineko's case, Battler is the person who "believes" these scenes are true by the end of the game. In other words, the magic scenes are patterned after the way Battler would tell the story just before he dies if he'd had a chance to write it down. However, the Game Master is able to interpret these "magic" scenes however she wants, so the greatest limitation is that these scenes must provide enough clues to satisfy the Knox rules.
I've felt that this theory is wrong for a long time. It just doesn't feel right to me. I just don't like the idea that the gold is simply a lie or a and that's why it can defeat the red.

So I'm going to create a theory that might contradict yours Chronotrig. It's not an attack on your theory, but I think I've come up with a different answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronotrig
What is "magic"? EP5 explained this. Magic=lies.
It's funny, but when I started rereading the question arcs I found out that the definition of magic was flat out given to us! Episode 5 isn't needed to come to the the conclusion that magic= ignorance/false impression.

Spoiler for Judoh:


I think a better term for it may be "illusion"

Furthermore we have this quote from Bernkastel's letter

Quote:
She opened up a world that I, that girl and you didn't know.
The rule Y that makes it into the source of the magic.
It seems Lambda-Delta touched it a bit but too, but she can't possibly reach her level.
If we call this very thing as magic, except for Beatrice, certainly not one of us can be called a witch.
Apparently Bern was wrong Because Lambda seems to be capable of figuring it out according to this interview.

Quote:
Gold Text:
If you know the "answer", you should be able to understand what gold text is, what conditions it can be used in, and whether it's stronger than red text or not.

If someone knows the answer of the game, they can use the gold even if they aren't the Game Master.

Erika does not know the truth, but Lambdadelta can probably still use the gold.



With this interpretation I can create a theory for the colored texts using the judicial system as an example since that is now how this game works.

Spoiler for colored texts:


Spoiler for evidence supporting my interpretation:


Also could you all please read my interpretation on how it can be used I think the gold's wording is obviously important.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=6312

I also think Rule Y may be that multi layered world contraction concept that Ronove talks about.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=5413

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-04-04 at 11:03.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-04, 10:55   Link #7597
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I think red is interesting color to choose anyway. He could have chosen a bunch of colors. Even gold would've made sense since we're fighting a golden witch. But he chose red? When in mysteries we have a concept called a red herring?
I think you shouldn't forget that this is a story written by a japanese author, the concept of "red herring" only exists in english speaking countries. So the association of red=misleading most probably never crossed Ryukishi's mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Murderous Detective View Post
Just out of curiosity, does anyone NOT think Sayo is the culprit? In my opinion (and that's all I have) Ep. 2 makes her look like a bit of a red herring. It just seems as if everyone has decided conclusively that she's behind it and I keep wondering if this isn't a trick laid by Ryukishi07 to get everyone caught in one theory without considering others. I rarely see anyone discuss Jessitrice or Kyrietrice anymore because everyone says they've been jossed by the later episodes. IMO, Shannontrice would be just as jossed if people didn't spend so much time trying to make it fit into said episodes. So does anyone still support alternate theories? George, Jessica, and Kyrie all seem more suspicious than Sayo to me.

Edit: I do agree that Shannon probably played a part though. If George or Jessica is the culprit they'd almost certainly manipulate Shannon into aiding them.
I strongly believe that "Shannon" or whatever is her name is Beatrice, however I think there is a 50% chance that Beatrice isn't killing anyone.
__________________

Jan-Poo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-04, 10:56   Link #7598
Marion
The Great Dine
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
You're using a tarot card as evidence 9_9

Can you explain Oldersis-Beato's gold truth in EP 6 then? There was no 'trial' to determine that the magic Lilsis-Beato did was 'splendid magic'.

The coloring of the text probably refers to the three witches, as chronotrig mentioned before. Red is certain truth (Lambda), Blue is something that can become the truth (Bern) and Gold is something that becomes the truth if believed in (Beato)
__________________

Sig by nocco
Marion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-04, 11:01   Link #7599
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
In the spoilers I had to make a couple of my images as links since they were too big and image shack resized them. You have to click on the links and zoom in to get what I mean unfortunately.

The tarot card is only part of it.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-04, 11:07   Link #7600
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
I dunno about the witches associations but I do believe that gold is "what you believe in". It can only be defeated by red, i.e. a hard fact shown that denies it, however gold is somehow superior because doesn't need to be based on anything. We know that red can be used only if you already know your stuff. A GM can use red simply because he's the one that made the story, so of course he knows, and the detective can only use red if he's got detective authority or an unquestionable proof (such as severing someone's head).
__________________

Jan-Poo is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 23:14.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.