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Old 2010-04-05, 21:14   Link #7661
Marion
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
I'm finding it hard to imagine a reveal any huger than two of the characters being each other
I don't see it as amazing. A little shocking but not incredible. Shkannon has been a theory since EP 1, and this isn't the first time Ryukishi did a twin stunt switch (not on this level per se, but still)
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Old 2010-04-05, 21:37   Link #7662
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
I don't see it as amazing. A little shocking but not incredible. Shkannon has been a theory since EP 1, and this isn't the first time Ryukishi did a twin stunt switch (not on this level per se, but still)
Except Shkanon (or at least, my version of it) has nothing to do with twins or a switch. And it isn't the simple fact of how it was done, but why something like that would happen in the first place. That's something that no one has given a good answer to until recently.

It's easy to say "Oh right, Shannon and Kanon are the same person", but unless you can explain why, it means nothing.
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Old 2010-04-05, 21:39   Link #7663
Judoh
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
I'm finding it hard to imagine a reveal any huger than two of the characters being each other
What about a reveal that Natsuhi is really Battler's mother with Rudolf as the Surrogate father? DUN DUN DUN!!~~~~

Same person theories aren't really all that amazing. And after episode 5 I want to think that his Birth is something central to the plot. I don't think he would just gloss over it. That's why I came up with the Jessica = Actual Battler theory. It should already be established by episode 4 that Battler isn't who we think he is there is no way the red could refer to him as the actual person when we know that he's not.
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Old 2010-04-05, 21:47   Link #7664
Renall
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
I'm finding it hard to imagine a reveal any huger than two of the characters being each other
That's not really a huge reveal considering everyone saw it coming but nobody wanted something so ridiculous to be true.

It certainly doesn't impress me.
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Old 2010-04-05, 21:50   Link #7665
chronotrig
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That's not really a huge reveal considering everyone saw it coming but nobody wanted something so ridiculous to be true.

It certainly doesn't impress me.
And yet, if my interpretation of the Shkanon theory does happen to be true, no one managed to think of it until I did a few weeks ago (well, I'm sure several people did, but I didn't hear about it). And even I needed EP6 to reach that conclusion. And even I probably missed several important clues. So it seems more like the answer was, if anything, too hard instead of too easy

In other words, no one saw it coming. What everyone saw was only a small part of the answer, which doesn't make sense unless you know the rest. Of course, this is only if my theory happens to be close to the truth.
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Old 2010-04-05, 21:51   Link #7666
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I could just imagine Battler saying after the it's useless all useless line in episode 5. (While crying)

That baby is me!...and...You never killed me Natsuhi.... I'm here for you right now... and your not the culprit...!

I mean why protect her in episode 5 anyway? Maybe there was something important about her that he found out that wasn't shown to us.
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Old 2010-04-05, 21:56   Link #7667
chronotrig
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I could just imagine Battler saying after the it's useless all useless line in episode 5. (While crying)

That baby is me!...and...You never killed me Natsuhi.... I'm here for you right now... and your not the culprit...!

I mean why protect her in episode 5 anyway? Maybe there was something important about her that he found out that wasn't shown to us.
Well, we know from EP1 that he would stick up for Natsuhi if she was in a tough spot. I don't think a person like Battler needs a special motive for that, especially if he knows (or strongly suspects) that Natsuhi didn't do it. And in EP5, there's a good chance that he was behind the fake murders.
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Old 2010-04-05, 21:57   Link #7668
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
And yet, if my interpretation of the Shkanon theory does happen to be true, no one managed to think of it until I did a few weeks ago (well, I'm sure several people did, but I didn't hear about it). And even I needed EP6 to reach that conclusion. And even I probably missed several important clues. So it seems more like the answer was, if anything, too hard instead of too easy
No, people still got the idea. They didn't need to know the deeper meaning to fear it as silly. Because it's inherently silly. No amount of explanation makes it a good reveal.
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In other words, no one saw it coming. What everyone saw was only a small part of the answer, which doesn't make sense unless you know the rest. Of course, this is only if my theory happens to be close to the truth.
It was feared coming, people just had more faith in the story than that. Sorry for exceeding expectations.
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Old 2010-04-05, 21:59   Link #7669
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@Chronotrig: Well I get the feeling with Ange's death in episode 5 that Ryukishi likes being over dramatic. I also think he likes to embellish really small plot points.

I'll wait to see what happens, but I'm expecting a really cool reveal about Battler's birth. I don't think it's a mystery he put in there for no reason at all.
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Old 2010-04-05, 21:59   Link #7670
chronotrig
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No, people still got the idea. They didn't need to know the deeper meaning to fear it as silly. Because it's inherently silly. No amount of explanation makes it a good reveal.It was feared coming, people just had more faith in the story than that. Sorry for exceeding expectations.
Heh, so you don't really care about the backstory? You keep calling it silly but have never given a logical reason for calling it that. Every time you have so far in the past, you pick something that doesn't apply to my version of Shkanontrice.
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Old 2010-04-05, 22:02   Link #7671
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Heh, so you don't really care about the backstory? You keep calling it silly but have never given a logical reason for calling it that. Every time you have so far in the past, you pick something that doesn't apply to my version of Shkanontrice.
If your version of the backstory is the backstory of Umineko - and I still believe it isn't, but let's pretend - then Umineko is a terribly-written story.

No amount of dressing up Evil Twins and Split Personalities makes a third-rate mystery a first-rate one. If you do not believe that this is the case, I can't really argue with you about it, because we're arguing over your taste.

EDIT: And please stop calling it "the backstory" unless you append "that I made up," because it hasn't been proven to be the backstory yet.
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Old 2010-04-05, 22:07   Link #7672
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No amount of dressing up Evil Twins and Split Personalities makes a third-rate mystery a first-rate one. If you do not believe that this is the case, I can't really argue with you about it, because we're arguing over your taste.
Well, my theory involved neither Evil Twins nor split personalities in the normal sense of the word, so we're good. You need an argument that actually addresses my theory instead of ignoring it.

And again, this is a matter of taste, but if you think a story is "terribly written" just because of a certain plot element, you're drastically oversimplifying. Sure, you might think it a bad mystery, but that doesn't mean it fails as a story or a puzzle.
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Old 2010-04-05, 22:10   Link #7673
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Well, my theory involved neither Evil Twins nor split personalities in the normal sense of the word, so we're good. You need an argument that actually addresses my theory instead of ignoring it.
No, you dress it up funny, but that's basically what it boils down to. Crazy maids, people who are other people for silly reasons, cult brainwashing with no basis whatsoever in anything, ignoring 3/4 of the cast because they're inconvenient, blaming murders on a character who doesn't even appear in the story, you've mentioned many of these things in essence. Mixing them together the way you have, I have absolutely no faith in the story if your construction of it is correct. No offense meant, but if you were writing Umineko, I wouldn't want to read it.
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And again, this is a matter of taste, but if you think a story is "terribly written" just because of a certain plot element, you're drastically oversimplifying. Sure, you might think it a bad mystery, but that doesn't mean it fails as a story or a puzzle.
If I can't read it because it expects me to accept something moronic, I can't enjoy any aspect of it.
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Old 2010-04-05, 22:16   Link #7674
chronotrig
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No, you dress it up funny, but that's basically what it boils down to. Crazy maids, people who are other people for silly reasons, cult brainwashing with no basis whatsoever in anything, ignoring 3/4 of the cast because they're inconvenient, blaming murders on a character who doesn't even appear in the story, you've mentioned many of these things in essence. Mixing them together the way you have, I have absolutely no faith in the story if your construction of it is correct. No offense meant, but if you were writing Umineko, I wouldn't want to read it.If I can't read it because it expects me to accept something moronic, I can't enjoy any aspect of it.
See, none of the things you've mentioned here are actually a part of my theory. If you don't like it, there's no need to complain about it on this board. There's no need to call me moronic and stupid all the time. Just keep it to yourself, okay?

And again, I've yet to see you make any theory with a realistic motive that is actually based on evidence from the game. If you want to act so annoyed at everyone else's theories, I suggest that you find one for yourself.
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Old 2010-04-05, 22:19   Link #7675
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See, none of the things you've mentioned here are actually a part of my theory. If you don't like it, there's no need to complain about it on this board. Just keep it to yourself, okay?
Well, you refuse to post any of it here and insist on pressing it on me in private, so I guess you can say whatever you want is or isn't in your theory. I won't violate the privacy of our conversations, but I think you should put all your "theory" up here, because it's unfair to me to suggest something and then tell me you never said it when I bring it up.

But I stand by it. All the things you said were communicated to me in one form or another. And let's not forget Nanjo Fatsuit from a few months back. Whatever happened with that?
Quote:
And again, I've yet to see you make any theory with a realistic motive that is actually based on evidence from the game. If you want to act so annoyed at everyone else's theories, I suggest that you find one for yourself.
I am not required to present my own answer to declare another answer wrong, unfounded, badly-written, unsatisfying, or stupid. That is quite possibly the worst argument on the internet. I don't have to do better than you. You don't "win" by default just because you have a theory and I don't. I'm also sick of trying, because you interrupt me at every turn, direct things back to your pet theory, and talk my ear off about them. I never once got the answers I asked for.

EDIT: I've taken steps to ensure this won't happen again. Thread's gotten derailed too many times lately and I'm one of the reasons for it. I'll make sure to avoid this in the future even if I have to ratchet down my own posting. Sorry folks.

Last edited by Renall; 2010-04-06 at 01:28.
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Old 2010-04-06, 01:32   Link #7676
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
@Chronotrig: Well I get the feeling with Ange's death in episode 5 that Ryukishi likes being over dramatic. I also think he likes to embellish really small plot points.

I'll wait to see what happens, but I'm expecting a really cool reveal about Battler's birth. I don't think it's a mystery he put in there for no reason at all.
I'm expecting Episode 7 to reveal some things which will make us go... "WHAAAAT?!" ... but at the end, we'll realize that even if they do exist it doesn't actually contribute to being the culprits or the truth behind Umineko. *cough*Shkannon*cough*


Pretty much in the same way that Natsuhi and the others pretending Kinzo was alive would've seemed very suspicious at EP4 and people did assume that it was associated with being the culprit, but EP5 destroyed that.

Although... it seems like there's someone else other than Natsuhi who wants to keep pretending Kinzo was alive.
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Old 2010-04-06, 01:48   Link #7677
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Pretty much in the same way that Natsuhi and the others pretending Kinzo was alive would've seemed very suspicious at EP4 and people did assume that it was associated with being the culprit, but EP5 destroyed that.

Although... it seems like there's someone else other than Natsuhi who wants to keep pretending Kinzo was alive.
When you say that, Nanjo immediately comes to mind. I wonder what he does during the scenes where we see him with Kinzo. Of course, he always dies sometime well after the second twilight.

I think Kinzo's ring is a mystery. Why is Krauss and Natsuhi not hiding this ring in a secure hidden location after his death?
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Old 2010-04-06, 01:52   Link #7678
Kaisos Erranon
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I think Kinzo's ring is a mystery. Why is Krauss and Natsuhi not hiding this ring in a secure hidden location after his death?
The ring was never mentioned by either of them after his death in Ep5. Who says they even laid hands on it? Most likely, it was taken by the first person to discover his body, whoever that was.
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Old 2010-04-06, 01:59   Link #7679
Judoh
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When you say that, Nanjo immediately comes to mind. I wonder what he does during the scenes where we see him with Kinzo. Of course, he always dies sometime well after the second twilight.

I think Kinzo's ring is a mystery. Why is Krauss and Natsuhi not hiding this ring in a secure hidden location after his death?
I also think that Kinzo didn't have the ring at the time of his death.

Either Shannon and Kanon have it. Or George proposes to Shannon with it (or vice versa).

Those are the two dominant theories I see so far. But it's pretty much guaranteed that whoever does have it made the letters or made a replica of it like Eva suggested. Unless of course the letters were prepared in advance.
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Old 2010-04-06, 02:04   Link #7680
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Actually, if that scene in Ep5 is any indication, Genji should have the ring. Shannon/Kanon don't appear to have been on the island that day, if memory serves.
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