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Old 2010-04-06, 02:04   Link #7681
Kylon99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
When you say that, Nanjo immediately comes to mind. I wonder what he does during the scenes where we see him with Kinzo. Of course, he always dies sometime well after the second twilight.

I think Kinzo's ring is a mystery. Why is Krauss and Natsuhi not hiding this ring in a secure hidden location after his death?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
The ring was never mentioned by either of them after his death in Ep5. Who says they even laid hands on it? Most likely, it was taken by the first person to discover his body, whoever that was.
Well, what I noticed was that it's more than just Nanjo. Look at Rosa in EP2. If it was just Natsuhi and Krauss who were putting up the appearance, once they died the servants and Rosa should have exposed the truth. "Look, Natsuhi was trying to cover up Kinzo's death to help Krauss, but since all the siblings are dead, it doesn't matter anymore. We don't need to worry about Kinzo." Instead we get a Rosa that comes back down lying to Battler and the kids. She's the one holding the gun too, so I don't think she's being coerced with violence. Either way the servants need to pretend Kinzo is dead too, it seems.

So the possibilty is:

1. Rosa was in with servants from the beginning, like pre-Oct 4th.
2. Rosa was coerced (by something that goes beyond violence) or bribed afterwards.


As for the ring... I suspect the magic scenes of telling us directly that Kinzo DID hand it over to 'Beatrice,' whoever that is. Or whoever the leader of that group is.

Actually, I suspect Rosa of being in with the servants from the beginning. It seems like she also knows where the gold is in EP3. I think she and the servants (i.e. "Beatrice") knew in EP2 as well. She also was the one who made the cousins play dead in EP5.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...BA&output=html
As you can see from the First Twilight chart, all episodes start the first twilight with people available in the mansion unless they keep talking to like 3am or later like in EP5. In that case the person or group that makes people play dead had to go through Rosa to reach the others. So it's probably Genji or it's Kumasawa and she had some kind of contingency plan worked out ahead with Genji. But that's less likely than Genji simply being the originator.
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Old 2010-04-06, 02:08   Link #7682
Kaisos Erranon
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Rosa dies too early to be in on anything with the servants in most games. In my mind, Ep2 is the exception rather than the rule.

You know, if it weren't for Dlanor's 'there are no indications that someone was disguising as Rosa' bit in Ep5, I'd suspect her of having been replaced after she went to Kinzo's study. It'd explain a fair bit, I think.
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Old 2010-04-06, 02:08   Link #7683
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Actually, if that scene in Ep5 is any indication, Genji should have the ring. Shannon/Kanon don't appear to have been on the island that day, if memory serves.
Huh? I remember seeing them in that scene.The only servant I don't remember seeing there was Gohda.

Besides that doesn't mean that Genji has the ring.
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Old 2010-04-06, 02:11   Link #7684
Renall
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If Kinzo gave away his ring before he actually died, it could be in that person's hands for quite a while, and it would be less unusual that its disappearance wasn't really a factor for Krauss right after Kinzo died.

If he'd had the ring up until his death, Krauss would be ballistic over someone having taken it from his corpse. If, on the other hand, the ring disappeared some time before, he might make less of a deal about it. I'm sure he'd still want to know where it is... but he couldn't really pin anyone as a potential thief if Kinzo himself disposed of the ring somehow.

This is somewhat reasonable given the reaction when Battler has it in ep5. Everybody seems to have a "whoa, where'd you get that?" reaction to it. So it's very possible the ring's been missing a while. Counterpoint to this is the letters in previous episodes; everyone acknowledges that having Kinzo's ring allows the letters to be sealed, but nobody remarks that the ring hasn't been seen in a while. Suggesting that the adults don't know Kinzo doesn't have it, at least.
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Old 2010-04-06, 02:15   Link #7685
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Huh? I remember seeing them in that scene.The only servant I don't remember seeing there was Gohda.

Besides that doesn't mean that Genji has the ring.
If they do show up in that scene, it's after Natsuhi and Krauss have their chat about how screwed they are. Lemme check.

I'm pinpointing Genji because he was the one most likely to have discovered the body, and I can see him kind of developing a "must carry on Master's wishes" complex... bah.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
If he'd had the ring up until his death, Krauss would be ballistic over someone having taken it from his corpse. If, on the other hand, the ring disappeared some time before, he might make less of a deal about it. I'm sure he'd still want to know where it is... but he couldn't really pin anyone as a potential thief if Kinzo himself disposed of the ring somehow.

This is somewhat reasonable given the reaction when Battler has it in ep5. Everybody seems to have a "whoa, where'd you get that?" reaction to it. So it's very possible the ring's been missing a while. Counterpoint to this is the letters in previous episodes; everyone acknowledges that having Kinzo's ring allows the letters to be sealed, but nobody remarks that the ring hasn't been seen in a while. Suggesting that the adults don't know Kinzo doesn't have it, at least.
I'll need to check myself, but what were Natsuhi and Krauss' reactions to seeing it in Ep1-4?
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Old 2010-04-06, 02:17   Link #7686
Ssol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Well, what I noticed was that it's more than just Nanjo. Look at Rosa in EP2. If it was just Natsuhi and Krauss who were putting up the appearance, once they died the servants and Rosa should have exposed the truth. "Look, Natsuhi was trying to cover up Kinzo's death to help Krauss, but since all the siblings are dead, it doesn't matter anymore. We don't need to worry about Kinzo." Instead we get a Rosa that comes back down lying to Battler and the kids. She's the one holding the gun too, so I don't think she's being coerced with violence. Either way the servants need to pretend Kinzo is dead too, it seems.

So the possibilty is:

1. Rosa was in with servants from the beginning, like pre-Oct 4th.
2. Rosa was coerced (by something that goes beyond violence) or bribed afterwards.
I suppose a third option could be that Rosa just choose to maintain the illusion that Kinzo was still alive to keep everyone calm.

Considering all the murders that had just occurred anything extra would just make things worse.
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Old 2010-04-06, 02:27   Link #7687
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If Rosa were "let in on it" it would also potentially explain the lack of the body burning in ep2. The issue is explained to her, and she's asked what to do; unlike in other episodes, she decides to do nothing and just keep the body intact until things get sorted out. Since Rosa usually isn't in this position, this normally doesn't happen. Rosa would lack the desperation over the matter that Krauss and Natsuhi might, and now that she's the last sibling alive, it really seems kind of pointless to worry about Kinzo being dead. Likewise, explaining that to the kids would be pointless as well. Exactly why she covers for Genji and Shannon though, I couldn't say, given how distrusting of the servants she is otherwise.
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Old 2010-04-06, 02:37   Link #7688
Kylon99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
If he'd had the ring up until his death, Krauss would be ballistic over someone having taken it from his corpse. If, on the other hand, the ring disappeared some time before, he might make less of a deal about it. I'm sure he'd still want to know where it is... but he couldn't really pin anyone as a potential thief if Kinzo himself disposed of the ring somehow.
I think Krauss and Natsuhi would've still raged at the ring being stolen. Unless... I keep coming back to the topic of Kinzo's will because I can't think of anything else that would cause those two to obey. I mean those two thing their essentially master of the island if there isn't anything else like a real Beatrice or Kinzo's will. You could bribe Krauss, maybe but Natsuhi is into that 'pride' thing about Krauss being the head.... Also, I don't think you could get Rosa to obey very easily and you could NEVER get Kyrie to obey if you used coercion. If you used a bribe maybe, but I'm sure she'd suspect something and foil your plans. Yet she lied to Battler in EP4...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
I suppose a third option could be that Rosa just choose to maintain the illusion that Kinzo was still alive to keep everyone calm.

Considering all the murders that had just occurred anything extra would just make things worse.
Yah, that's a possibility for her to keep her silence right there. But in those scenes afterward where she's kicked out the servants and is just arguing with Battler, I would imagine Rosa would've trotted out that idea of the servant's conspiracy to Battler as proof of their 'guilt.'

Also, Rosa may die pretty quickly but if we're talking about her actions up to the first twilight and then include any actions afterwards when she does survive, it seems like there's a lot of hints already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Exactly why she covers for Genji and Shannon though, I couldn't say, given how distrusting of the servants she is otherwise.
By the way, after Natsuhi was proven innocent despite her schemes, I've noticed that I've suddenly been reluctant to finger people as the culprit even if I suspect them of a conspiracy. The servants, George and Shannon (although less for those two now), Rosa, Kyrie... and especially Kanon. It feels like I just do NOT want any of them to be the culprits.

So.. it's Gouda after all. He's a convenient fall guy. 8)
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Old 2010-04-06, 07:11   Link #7689
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
Still, if you're suggesting they were fake corpses, no body double tricks exist. Or what if they were just playing dead? Then wouldn't they just be re-killed before they were discovered? Shannon is the culprit for the EP1 first twilight, regardless of whether the other five were playing a game or not. Then she mixed in with the dead bodies and faked her death.
I don't get it. Why would they be rekilled before being discovered? That's not what happens in EP6 and not what EP5 suggests either.
They were killed after being discovered
Besides, if one of them is the culprit, it goes without saying that they would kill everyone except themselves!
You are entitled to have your own theory of course but how that denies other theories? In other words I have no problem with your blue, but your blue doesn't do anything to other blues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
Krauss, Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa, and Gohda were re-killed at the first twilight.
Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are not murderers
Natsuhi oba-san is pure and faithful!
Battler was with George, Jessica, and Maria.

That leaves only Kanon and Shannon.
Again your blue doesn't do anything to deny other theories therefore
Krauss, Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa and Gohda cannot be ruled out as culprits
and
It is possible that George or Jessica stayed a sec behind when everyone rushed to Kanon and properly killed Hideyoshi and Eva. There is not proof that they have always been under Battler's supervision.
and
It is possible that people were killed much much later, even after the tenth twilight, that means if no one really died before that mark then everyone can be the culprit (except Nanjo, Genji, Kumasawa, Battler, Maria and Natsuhi... and Kinzo)
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Old 2010-04-06, 08:21   Link #7690
Raiza Sunozaki
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Man, this thread moves fast when it wants to move fast. A few full pages in a matter of two days.
On the topic of the ring, I think it's most likely that Beatrice (Shannon) has the ring. Remember, in Episodes 1 and 3, Kinzo goes batshit crazy and throws the ring out the window? It might've not been as dramatic as that, but I think this was supposed to show that the ring moves from Kinzo to Shannon, or in some situations, from Kinzo to Ronove (Genji) to Shannon, like in Episode 3.
This ties in with my theory that Shannon has already found the gold. Why would Genji give the ring to Shannon? Following his orders, he should hold on to pass it on to the next heir, Krauss, or until someone solves the epitaph, like Kinzo willed it. But if Shannon has already solved the epitaph and found the gold, she is the next heir, and would earn the ring.
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Old 2010-04-06, 09:30   Link #7691
ijriims
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As prideful as Krauss, it was believable that if Kinzo died with his ring on his finger, he would certainly keep it himself.

However, when we think about it, Kinzo was supposed to go "missing", according to Kinzo and Natsuhi's plan. And because Kinzo supposedly never remove his ring, the ring should go "missing" as well. Although Krauss and Natsuhi might not want to dispose it just like Kinzo's body, the ring should never come to light.

Turning the chessboard around, Nanjo or Genji should never have the ring right after Kinzo died because once the witch's first letter came, Krauss and Natsuhi would immediately ask Nanjo or Genji for the whereabouts for the ring. And it was not a matter which can be excused for missing it or being stolen by someone.

Nor could it be stolen from Krauss or Natsuhi because the servants would be suspected immediately as well.

The most likely case, then, was Krauss and Natsuhi knew that Kinzo had not the ring anymore before his death, maybe he told them he had given it to Beatrice already, or just threw it outside because he did not want his siblings to get it after his death.
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Old 2010-04-06, 10:44   Link #7692
Marion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
As prideful as Krauss, it was believable that if Kinzo died with his ring on his finger, he would certainly keep it himself.

However, when we think about it, Kinzo was supposed to go "missing", according to Kinzo and Natsuhi's plan. And because Kinzo supposedly never remove his ring, the ring should go "missing" as well. Although Krauss and Natsuhi might not want to dispose it just like Kinzo's body, the ring should never come to light.

Turning the chessboard around, Nanjo or Genji should never have the ring right after Kinzo died because once the witch's first letter came, Krauss and Natsuhi would immediately ask Nanjo or Genji for the whereabouts for the ring. And it was not a matter which can be excused for missing it or being stolen by someone.

Nor could it be stolen from Krauss or Natsuhi because the servants would be suspected immediately as well.

The most likely case, then, was Krauss and Natsuhi knew that Kinzo had not the ring anymore before his death, maybe he told them he had given it to Beatrice already, or just threw it outside because he did not want his siblings to get it after his death.
According to EP 5 it seems like they were planning to put the body in the forest somewhere and just "discover it" at some point after Krauss got his fiancial problems done with. They would just say that he went for a walk in the forest like he usually does and got lost or something while wandering. If that's the case they might have left the ring on Kinzo's hand - Kinzo apparently died in his sleep, so unless he wears the ring to bed then it makes sense that it wouldn't be on his hand.

Heck I can imagine Natsuhi not letting anyone take it off from him, since she does still regard him as 'alive'.
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Old 2010-04-06, 12:08   Link #7693
SeagullCrazy
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I don't get it. Why would they be rekilled before being discovered? That's not what happens in EP6 and not what EP5 suggests either.
They were killed after being discovered
Besides, if one of them is the culprit, it goes without saying that they would kill everyone except themselves!
You are entitled to have your own theory of course but how that denies other theories? In other words I have no problem with your blue, but your blue doesn't do anything to other blues.
I don't see how they could possibly fool Battler that they were dead without actually being dead. Battler sees the corpses of Krauss, Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa, and Gohda. Their identities should be guaranteed!
That means they must have either been dead or playing dead!
You would think Battler would say something suggesting that they were faking their deaths. It's like Erika in EP5. They were covered by blankets, so of course she couldn't suspect anything wrong. Imagine if they weren't covered by blankets. Would you still say Erika could have been fooled?
Quote:
Again your blue doesn't do anything to deny other theories therefore
Krauss, Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa and Gohda cannot be ruled out as culprits
and
It is possible that George or Jessica stayed a sec behind when everyone rushed to Kanon and properly killed Hideyoshi and Eva. There is not proof that they have always been under Battler's supervision.
and
It is possible that people were killed much much later, even after the tenth twilight, that means if no one really died before that mark then everyone can be the culprit (except Nanjo, Genji, Kumasawa, Battler, Maria and Natsuhi... and Kinzo)
They can be ruled out as culprits if you believe Battler's detective authority can't be fooled.

They locked the room as soon as they left. Unless George or Jessica had access to a master key, they couldn't have opened the door.

So you're suggesting that no one died at all?
That's ridiculous. It completely disregards Battler's detective authority.
Battler saw the wounds of Krauss, Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa, Gohda, Genji, Nanjo, Kumasawa, and Natsuhi, which are all fatal.
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Old 2010-04-06, 13:05   Link #7694
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
I don't see how they could possibly fool Battler that they were dead without actually being dead. Battler sees the corpses of Krauss, Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa, and Gohda. Their identities should be guaranteed!
That means they must have either been dead or playing dead!
You would think Battler would say something suggesting that they were faking their deaths. It's like Erika in EP5. They were covered by blankets, so of course she couldn't suspect anything wrong. Imagine if they weren't covered by blankets. Would you still say Erika could have been fooled?


They can be ruled out as culprits if you believe Battler's detective authority can't be fooled.

They locked the room as soon as they left. Unless George or Jessica had access to a master key, they couldn't have opened the door.

So you're suggesting that no one died at all?
That's ridiculous. It completely disregards Battler's detective authority.
Battler saw the wounds of Krauss, Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa, Gohda, Genji, Nanjo, Kumasawa, and Natsuhi, which are all fatal.
What about the fatal wound Battler saw were just:

(Left half of head of Krauss + Right half of head of Shannon + jaw of Gohda/Rosa) * glued and smashed together + a wig

The body was just a dummy dressing up.

You can't just separate the red texts like that. The meaning of body-double depends on its contexts, not your understanding.
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Old 2010-04-06, 13:09   Link #7695
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That sounds pretty elaborate. With the 1st twilight of EP 1 it's the very first group of murders in the entire game. It gives me a feeling that the culprit wanted to really freak everyone out with something so gruesome. If you think about it, all the other murders afterward are pretty clean kills (with the exception of Kumasawa + Genji + Nanjo's murders).

Still I think the fact that the shed was very darkly lit makes me think that Battler could have been fooled by makeup - Knox says the detective authority confirms people as dead, but it says nothing about him being fooled.
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Old 2010-04-06, 13:36   Link #7696
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
That sounds pretty elaborate. With the 1st twilight of EP 1 it's the very first group of murders in the entire game. It gives me a feeling that the culprit wanted to really freak everyone out with something so gruesome. If you think about it, all the other murders afterward are pretty clean kills (with the exception of Kumasawa + Genji + Nanjo's murders).
It may be that the culprit wanted to freak everyone out (Meta-Beatrice certainly did), but that isn't necessarily the only motive for damaging the faces. If I remember correctly, all murders in the Umineko question arcs might have been nothing more that a single shot with a gun and sometimes sticking a stake into the wound, with four general exceptions:

1. The damaged faces of the 1st, 6th, 7th, and 8th twilights in EP1
2. The 1st twilight of EP2
3. Everything after the first twilight in EP3
4. Kinzo's corpse in all Episodes

It's strongly hinted that #3 is done by a different culprit, and the first twilight of EP2 is the only time that "the culprit" openly taunts the survivors over the deaths of their loved ones (the letter that Jessica found was totally unlike any other Beatrice letter in all the games). Unless the first culprit had some kind of special grudge against Natsuhi and Jessica that just doesn't show up in any of the other Episodes (this is actually very possible), this was probably done by a different person. I think it should be noted that whoever the "culprit" in the second part of EP3 is, one of the last magic scenes suggests that they openly mocked and toyed with Jessica before killing her, which is why she was able to escape for a while.

Also, Kinzo's burnt corpse has often been pointed to as having something to do with the explosion (usually by hiding the stench of some kind of gas), an explosion which seems to contradict the first culprit's goal of creating closed rooms and staking people in a ritualistic way.

So, except for the damaged faces in EP1, all murders performed by something other than a simple gunshot (I'm assuming that Maria in EP4 was a suicide or assisted suicide) are in some way connected to the second culprit who takes control in EP3. That makes me think that the murderer had a specific reason for damaging the faces, at least for the 1st twilight. What reason could that be except to hide the fact that one of the "victims" wasn't who or what everything thought it was?
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Old 2010-04-06, 15:29   Link #7697
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...Wait. I'm not sure about the EP1 first twilight, but as for the EP2 first twilight, it is quite possible to fake having your intestines dragged out (for instance, like this). So rather than the bodies being mutilated by the culprit, maybe the victims fake-mutilated themselves, and then were stabbed to death afterward or something. If that's true, then it's possible that at the time of the body discovery, some of the fake death conspirators didn't realize that the victims were really dead. That could explain some of Jessica's behavior, and possibly the weird note in the honored guest room.

Last edited by LyricalAura; 2010-04-06 at 16:10.
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Old 2010-04-06, 15:36   Link #7698
SeagullCrazy
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
What about the fatal wound Battler saw were just:

(Left half of head of Krauss + Right half of head of Shannon + jaw of Gohda/Rosa) * glued and smashed together + a wig

The body was just a dummy dressing up.

You can't just separate the red texts like that. The meaning of body-double depends on its contexts, not your understanding.
What meaning could a body double have other than "a body, real or fake, mistaken for someone else's body"?

Partly why I believe this is because I want to trust Ryukishi as an author. It would be a cheap trick to use body doubles, or have fake corpses lying around. Shkanon, to me, seems like another cheap solution.
Any puzzle in any game that can be solved by Shkanon can also be solved without Shkanon. Likewise, any murder that can be solved with body doubles can be solved without any body double tricks. Or red-text loopholes or a room "not under a closed room definition". Basically, I trust that Ryukishi has written a fair mystery that doesn't rely on word games or cheap tricks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion
Still I think the fact that the shed was very darkly lit makes me think that Battler could have been fooled by makeup - Knox says the detective authority confirms people as dead, but it says nothing about him being fooled.
Turn the chessboard over. Why would the culprit make themselves have a fully smashed face if that meant they would be suspected? The characters in EP1 even think that someone faked their death at the first twilight. But people with only half of their face smashed won't be suspected, because they are identifiable. It's just that Shannon was only seen by Hideyoshi and Kanon. Shannon is dead, and her face is half-smashed.
As long as people on the island would believe that, no one would suspect her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig
It may be that the culprit wanted to freak everyone out (Meta-Beatrice certainly did), but that isn't necessarily the only motive for damaging the faces. If I remember correctly, all murders in the Umineko question arcs might have been nothing more that a single shot with a gun and sometimes sticking a stake into the wound, with four general exceptions:
EP1 and EP2 follow the epitaph the closest. The culprit wanted Beatrice to be set up as the culprit. And Battler believed it in EP2.
EP3 obviously has a different culprit framing Eva, and follows the epitaph just to keep up the illusion her predecessor had.
EP4 set up Kinzo as the culprit, and barely followed the epitaph at all.

So I think there is a connection between gruesome murders and framing Beatrice.
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Old 2010-04-06, 16:05   Link #7699
Judoh
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Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
I don't see how they could possibly fool Battler that they were dead without actually being dead. Battler sees the corpses of Krauss, Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa, and Gohda. Their identities should be guaranteed!
That means they must have either been dead or playing dead!
You would think Battler would say something suggesting that they were faking their deaths. It's like Erika in EP5. They were covered by blankets, so of course she couldn't suspect anything wrong. Imagine if they weren't covered by blankets. Would you still say Erika could have been fooled?
When was the last time you read episode 1? Battler DOES suggest the corpses were faked. He said they're faces looked like they were covered in make up. And beleive it or not make up was central to the plot in And then there were none by Agatha Christie. One of the most popular mystery books and one of Ryukishi's favorites.

After seeing Kinzo's corpse he suggested that any of the corpses could be faked.

The "therefore no body double tricks exist" red was referring to the deaths of Genji Kumasawa and Nanjo to say that they were the real people. NOT the first twilight.

Also you don't have to misidentify a corpse if they aren't really a corpse. They can still be the same person.
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Old 2010-04-06, 16:20   Link #7700
SeagullCrazy
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
When was the last time you read episode 1? Battler DOES suggest the corpses were faked. He said they're faces looked like they were covered in make up. And beleive it or not make up was central to the plot in And then there were none by Agatha Christie. One of the most popular mystery books and one of Ryukishi's favorites.
Well, I meant at the time of discovery, but it looks like he did say it there too.

EDIT: At first I thought you were talking about the time later on when they suspected someone faked their death

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh
The "therefore no body double tricks exist" red was referring to the deaths of Genji Kumasawa and Nanjo to say that they were the real people. NOT the first twilight.

Also you don't have to misidentify a corpse if they aren't really a corpse. They can still be the same person.
I guess it can't be guaranteed by the red then. But read my above post for why I still think they weren't fake.
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