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Old 2010-04-10, 20:38   Link #7881
chronotrig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
You see, the core of the illusion is not that nobody saw a dead Kinzo. Wouldn't be much of an illusion then. It's that everyone hears random daily eyewitness reports and observes physical evidence of a living one, who continues doing things he was always doing -- taking walks, arguing with family through the door when a bad mood rolls in, eating meals in his room, playing chess with his doctor and butler, and any decrease in the frequency or length of these activities is due to his slowly failing health rather than any abrupt change in it. Closing the door forever and pretending Kinzo is alive in there is only going to work for a couple of weeks tops if none of this happens.
As far as I know, this only happens during the family conference. Remember that Kinzo's study is like a separate house. We even hear from Jessica that "he's so wrapped in his black magic that he never even comes to eat dinner with us" (Natsuhi scolds her shortly after, interestingly). So yes, there's absolutely no need to set up a complex fake schedule to fool Jessica or Gohda. Both of them just assume that Kinzo refuses to come out of his study for anything, and both of them claim that they believe this is the case. It's not like Jessica really cares that much.


@Kaisos Erranon:
Can you point to a line that actually proves it? Remember that she never likes going anywhere near Kinzo's room because of the smell, so she's probably heard all the details about him from Natsuhi and Krauss.
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Old 2010-04-10, 20:47   Link #7882
Oliver
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
As far as I know, this only happens during the family conference. Remember that Kinzo's study is like a separate house. We even hear from Jessica that "he's so wrapped in his black magic that he never even comes to eat dinner with us". So yes, there's absolutely no need to set of a complex fake schedule to fool Jessica or Gohda. Both of them just assume that Kinzo refuses to come out of his study for anything, and both of them claim that they believe this is the case.
Complex - probably not. Some kind of fake schedule definitely has to be there, or Gohda would notice the master of the house never eats anything he cooks, even separately from the rest of the family. I expect Gohda would be very annoyed if he had any suspicion of that.

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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
@Kaisos Erranon:
Can you point to a line that actually proves it? Remember that she never likes going anywhere near Kinzo's room because of the smell, so she's probably heard all the details about him from Natsuhi and Krauss.
I don't think there is one, I've just read those particular scenes specifically looking for something like that. What Jessica seems to say about Kinzo is just the result of the illusion working - retransmission of eyewitness reports as if they are firsthand truth, because they are, to the limit of her knowledge, truth.
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Old 2010-04-10, 20:51   Link #7883
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Complex - probably not. Some kind of fake schedule definitely has to be there, or Gohda would notice the master of the house never eats anything he cooks, even separately from the rest of the family. I expect Gohda would be very annoyed if he had any suspicion of that.
The games make a point of showing us that Kinzo "gets fed" in his own room. All the servants have to do is carry the food there and eat or dispose of it. Since there's already the rule that only servants with the crest can enter that room to feed Kinzo, this is a pretty easy trick, and it doesn't involve anyone other than a couple servants for a few minutes a day.
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Old 2010-04-10, 21:01   Link #7884
Oliver
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
The games make a point of showing us that Kinzo "gets fed" in his own room. All the servants have to do is carry the food there and eat or dispose of it. Since there's already the rule that only servants with the crest can enter that room to feed Kinzo, this is a pretty easy trick, and it doesn't involve anyone other than a couple servants for a few minutes a day.
Yes, that is precisely what I mean - but I'm sure it doesn't quite stop there since Natsuhi also mentions a 'daily report to the head', which is a part of her personal schedule. It doesn't have to be elaborate, nor does it have to involve complex acting in front of the door, but conspirators do have to enter this room, spend some time inside and then leave.

And that includes Nanjo 'examinations' at regular, medically reasonable periods - if someone gets the idea to ask any of the island's inhabitants and Nanjo himself about when did the visits occur and whether Nanjo did in fact come to examine Kinzo's health, and the statements don't match, the illusion is busted.
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Old 2010-04-10, 21:08   Link #7885
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Yes, that is precisely what I mean - but I'm sure it doesn't quite stop there since Natsuhi also mentions a 'daily report to the head', which is a part of her personal schedule. It doesn't have to be elaborate, nor does it have to involve complex acting in front of the door, but conspirators do have to enter this room, spend some time inside and then leave.

And that includes Nanjo 'examinations' at regular, medically reasonable periods - if someone gets the idea to ask any of the island's inhabitants and Nanjo himself about when did the visits occur and whether Nanjo did in fact come to examine Kinzo's health, and the statements don't match, the illusion is busted.
Right, but spending a few hours a month isn't that much of a burden for Nanjo. He doesn't need an insanely strong motive to do that. Also, we hear from the EP1 prologue that he recommends that Kinzo write a will so that those who outlive him can help settle his regrets. I think a friend that close to Kinzo would be willing to help settle Kinzo's regrets himself if at all possible, especially is the only cost is for a retired guy to give one day every month up to preserve the memory of a good friend.

But again, that's obviously not the only possible motive for Nanjo.
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Old 2010-04-10, 21:14   Link #7886
Judoh
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Nanjo doesn't have much to do. His job is just to sit in a closed room and pretend a dead person is there. The only time Kinzo comes up in conversation with him around is at dinner on October 4th and in the parents meetings. He hasn't been known to socialize much with the adults, but I think he likes talking to the kids.

I also think he feels the most guilty about keeping this secret and that's why he has to stay in that room most of the time. He'd be the easiest to crack if he was there all year.
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Old 2010-04-10, 21:41   Link #7887
Oliver
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On a completely unrelated note. Shannon apparently either has precognitive abilities, telepathic abilities, is inhumanly meticulous, or runs very very fast. One of those four, surely.

Ep1, after dinner. Adult discussions are heating up, the cousins, chased out, have finally reassembled, and Rosa comes out to check on Maria. Shortly before, preparing rooms in the mansion itself is mentioned so as not to make everyone go back to the guesthouse in the rain, and Jessica says one is prepared for the cousins as well and asks for a consensus decision.

George suggests they go to the guesthouse anyway, Battler supports, Rosa, hearing about that, asks to take Maria with them. The whole exchange can't take more than five minutes with no mentiooned observers. Rosa gets called back. There is no time to notify anyone that they are leaving for the guesthouse, and having prepared the rooms, servants should, in theory, expect they will stay in the mansion.

Shannon shows up immediately as they enter the entrance hall, asking if they need guiding to the guesthouse. Very perceptive of her, but probably expected.

But the very moment they enter the guesthouse and she folds her umbrella, Shannon says, "Has anyone gotten their garments wet? I prepared a towel..."

She could have called Genji or Kanon who were there at the time to do that, if the internal phone line is still working, but did she have the time? She is not seen doing that. Assuming she did that herself, she would need to be very, very fast about it. But failing the precognition of the cousins eventually deciding on the guesthouse anyway despite orders to prepare rooms in the mansion, the telepathic message to Genji or Kanon, or running through the pouring rain at inhuman speeds, it would require going to the guesthouse well in advance to prepare that towel on the off chance it would be required.

Something's not right here.
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Old 2010-04-10, 21:47   Link #7888
Marion
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Or maybe she knew it was going to be raining, which everyone knew, and they had towels and umbrellas ready just in case. Rooms in the mansions were prepared before dinner, according to Kumasawa and Shannon. Plus with the family fighting behind close doors, they might have expected that the cousins would be chased to the guest house against their will.
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Old 2010-04-10, 21:48   Link #7889
Judoh
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I think you can keep a towel in your pocket or even in another room she had a lot of time BEFORE all that to prepare a towel. And all of the servants probably did because of the rain.

I also don't get why the servants should "expect" them to stay in the mansion. Why even prepare their rooms in the guesthouse then?
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Old 2010-04-10, 21:49   Link #7890
chronotrig
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@Oliver:

Geh, this is why I'm always wanting to redo the first half of EP1. The line more or less reads "I can get you some towels if you want". Anyways, I don't see what's so weird here, since all she has to do is find a towel and it was pretty obvious that it would be raining sooner or later.
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Old 2010-04-10, 21:52   Link #7891
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Or maybe she knew it was going to be raining, which everyone knew, and they had towels and umbrellas ready just in case.
Quite likely, but would she say "I prepared a towel." then, though?

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I think you can keep a towel in your pocket she had a lot of time BEFORE all that to prepare a towel. And all of the servants probably did because of the rain.
I think we mean very different things by the word 'towel' if the one you think about fits in a pocket in a maid uniform.
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Old 2010-04-10, 21:55   Link #7892
Oliver
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Geh, this is why I'm always wanting to redo the first half of EP1. The line more or less reads "I can get you some towels if you want".
Duh, evidence evaporated. You probably should, I'm definitely not the only one reading into every single letter. Should have checked the source text before posting it.
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Old 2010-04-10, 21:56   Link #7893
Judoh
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I think we mean very different things by the word 'towel' if the one you think about fits in a pocket in a maid uniform.
Maybe she was going to crack a joke where she would use her maid hat as a towel? to lighten things up after being chased out? And really She could have easily have prepared towels inside their room on the beds as consideration for the weather report. It's Battler's first return in 6 years everything has to be perfect right?
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Old 2010-04-10, 21:58   Link #7894
chronotrig
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Duh, evidence evaporated. You probably should, I'm definitely not the only one reading into every single letter. Should have checked the source text before posting it.
Unfortunately, the first half of EP1 is somewhere around 50,000 words long, so we'd have to delay the translation of EP6 by more that a month to do it right. Most people wouldn't like that too much
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Old 2010-04-10, 22:04   Link #7895
Marion
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Quite likely, but would she say "I prepared a towel." then, though?
C'mon, that's just being picky now :P Preparing towels might not have been her idea but Natsuhi's, so taking credit like that may be against her conduct.
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Old 2010-04-10, 22:07   Link #7896
Judoh
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Well regardless of the words The way I see it was that Shannon was trying to cheer them up a bit. I really don't think this is supposed to be a complicated mystery...

Maybe if they asked she could have retrieved a towel I think. It's not like people haven't made contradictory statements half jokingly in episode 1 before just look at Rudolf...
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Old 2010-04-10, 22:18   Link #7897
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Maybe she was going to crack a joke where she would use her maid hat as a towel? to lighten things up after being chased out?


The point about bringing up this line is that there very probably is a plot involving the first twilight victims playing dead for a currently unknown reason, that plays out correctly in most if not all of the games. If the line in question were actually uttered as written, this would imply, though not very strongly, that Shannon is aware of the cousins getting separated off the adults in advance even in this episode, when such a plot is not apparent otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Unfortunately, the first half of EP1 is somewhere around 50,000 words long, so we'd have to delay the translation of EP6 by more that a month to do it right. Most people wouldn't like that too much
Meh.
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Old 2010-04-10, 22:30   Link #7898
RockReborn
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The line about the towel seems less important to me than the fact that Shannon was there to guide them to the guesthouse. It seems more natural to ask them, who've been out in the rain, if they need any towels, in comparison to knowing that they were headed to the guesthouse. The bit about the towel just seems too casual a line.
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Old 2010-04-10, 22:31   Link #7899
Judoh
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The point about bringing up this line is that there very probably is a plot involving the first twilight victims playing dead for a currently unknown reason, that plays out correctly in most if not all of the games. If the line in question were actually uttered as written, this would imply, though not very strongly, that Shannon is aware of the cousins getting separated off the adults in advance even in this episode, when such a plot is not apparent otherwise.

Well this isn't as apparent in other episodes as it is in the earlier ones. Episodes 3 and 4 for some reason have the adults talking for the entire night without taking a break. If this is true I wonder why the positions of the adults constantly change in the earlier episodes with them loafing around, but not in the later ones. While the cousins don't loaf around for some reason.
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Old 2010-04-10, 22:35   Link #7900
Oliver
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The line about the towel seems less important to me than the fact that Shannon was there to guide them to the guesthouse.
Well, without the towels it's just less suspicious.

Mind you, I'm re-reading with the explicit intent to find at least something to suspect about everyone, particularly including my memory of future episodes, so anything said or done when it does not follow perfectly naturally is fair game.
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