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Old 2010-04-14, 21:46   Link #8101
Shiro Kaisen
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Ryuukishi did say that we could "drown in a sea of clues" if we looked at everything. I agree it's a dead end at this time.
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Old 2010-04-14, 21:46   Link #8102
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
If Rudolf was the one to discover the corpses, then he could easily be a suspect right?
Yeah, he's a suspect, but why would Hideyoshi suddenly decide to attack him? If he suspected Rudolf, he'd have been smarter to say something before letting himself be all alone with Rudolf and Kyrie.


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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Dlanor says in the Ep5 tea party that Kinzo bought them from some American con artist. It's not in red, but they were going to deny the stakes with that information, so...
Actually, Dlanor never mentions Kinzo. It's Erika who assumes Kinzo bought them. And as we know, she doesn't have a good record of being right on things.
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Old 2010-04-14, 21:49   Link #8103
Laserworm
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But is certainly seems possible. I mean most people get staked by the same stake, if they get staked. Nanjo, Kumasawa, Kanon.

Quote:
Although then you have some weird choices that don't make sense at all (Hideyoshi was staked by Lucifer in EP 5 for example). Also, the order of staking =/= order of death either (Kinzo died before everyone there, but in EP 1 he was staked 4th). It could be a red herring after all in the end.
Maybe that means we don't know as much about Hideyoshi as we think we do.
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Old 2010-04-14, 21:53   Link #8104
rogerpepitone
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As for Ep 3 T 2, I've suggested this before but:
1) Rosa's death was probably an accident / manslaughter. Trying to deliberately kill Rosa by spiking her like that is extremely chancy.
2) It probably wasn't the same person / group who was behind the first twilight. Those six were all neat and deliberate and required weapons; these two could have been done unarmed; there weren't even stakes used.
3) Rosa probably died first. She had a gun and had to be taken unawares.

To me, these points suggest that a person went to talk to Rosa. At some point, tempers flared and the other person gave Rosa a good shove, accidentally knocking her onto the spikes. Maria saw this and Rosa's killer had to kill again to keep her mouth shut.

And why not Eva? Sometimes, the killer is the obvious one. (But I don't think she was behind any of the later murders, except maybe Battler.)
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Old 2010-04-14, 21:58   Link #8105
Judoh
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Yeah, he's a suspect, but why would Hideyoshi suddenly decide to attack him? If he suspected Rudolf, he'd have been smarter to say something before letting himself be all alone with Rudolf and Kyrie.
How about we turn it around then? What would make Rudolf suddenly attack Hideyoshi? I think they were in a duel which means they were in some kind of argument or they were already fighting. Whether Rudolf or Eva Killed Rosa was the reason or something else was the reason one of them was angry at the other and they decided on a duel. Coincidentally both of them died from gun shot wounds and were staked afterward. I mean being shot in the head is really the most likely cause of death for Rudolf. I think you could survive a shot to the chest for a little while, but not long.
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Old 2010-04-14, 21:58   Link #8106
SeagullCrazy
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Yeah, he's a suspect, but why would Hideyoshi suddenly decide to attack him?
Well, this might be bad logic, but who else could have killed Rudolf?

Heck, maybe it is Nanjo after all. But I still wonder how he could move like a ninja despite his age.
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Old 2010-04-14, 22:06   Link #8107
Judoh
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Old 2010-04-14, 22:09   Link #8108
SeagullCrazy
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I think you just stopped thinking
Probably. I've been thinking this whole time up until now, so my brain finally went out.

Last edited by SeagullCrazy; 2010-04-14 at 22:28.
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Old 2010-04-14, 22:29   Link #8109
SeagullCrazy
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Ok, how about this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh
Whether Rudolf or Eva Killed Rosa was the reason or something else was the reason one of them was angry at the other and they decided on a duel.
Rudolf killed Rosa and Maria, accidental or not. But Rosa told him about Eva finding the gold. That was why he and Hideyoshi had a duel. Hideyoshi believed in Eva, because he was never told about the gold. So to him, it was the truth. Hideyoshi won the duel, but Kyrie was upset and killed Hideyoshi in response.
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Old 2010-04-14, 22:49   Link #8110
Judoh
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I'm not worried about Hideyoshi in that case as much as I am about who stabbed Kyrie. So I think that was Hideyoshi that did that maybe? It certainly wasn't Rudolf.
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Old 2010-04-14, 23:10   Link #8111
Kaisos Erranon
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In episode 4. And he's only held maybe one or two at a time. He's never gathered all seven together, which makes me think that only a few actually exist if any of them do exist at any given time.
In the manga, the stakes are inscribed with their names. I really don't see any indication to doubt their existence, also.

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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Although then you have some weird choices that don't make sense at all (Hideyoshi was staked by Lucifer in EP 5 for example).
I think we should treat this as an indication that he wasn't even dead to begin with. It's never confirmed.

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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Actually, Dlanor never mentions Kinzo. It's Erika who assumes Kinzo bought them. And as we know, she doesn't have a good record of being right on things.
Hmm, I'll have to think more on that, I guess.

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I mean being shot in the head is really the most likely cause of death for Rudolf. I think you could survive a shot to the chest for a little while, but not long.
From what I know, being shot directly in the heart would kill you pretty much instantly, and even if he remained alive for maybe a minute or two, I don't think he'd be an accurate enough shot at that point to shoot Rudolf in the head.

As for Rudolf being shot to begin with, something's been bothering me for a while: Those are high-power rifles, correct? Wouldn't a bullet fired from a gun like that go THROUGH someone's head? Thus creating a lot more blood than we normally see for the fourth twilight?

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It certainly wasn't Rudolf.
Why not? They aren't exactly the happiest couple in Umineko.
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Old 2010-04-14, 23:28   Link #8112
Renall
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
As for Rudolf being shot to begin with, something's been bothering me for a while: Those are high-power rifles, correct? Wouldn't a bullet fired from a gun like that go THROUGH someone's head? Thus creating a lot more blood than we normally see for the fourth twilight?
Dramatic license. Consider all the other weird issues:
  • Why is there so little blood at the site of most killings? They can't all have been moved after death, and even if they were, there must be blood somewhere, right? Or...
  • Many of these murders require someone to leave one of the buildings for the other. It's raining outside, why aren't they noted to be soaking, tracked in mud, or having squeaky shoes?
  • Why does the killer never seem to get his or her clothes bloody? Are they changing? Do they have a raincoat?
  • If people were shot in some episodes (2/3/4 especially), why are there no bullet holes? Did the killer never miss? Did no bullets ever escape the victim's body and embed in the wall? If as Battler theorized, a shotgun or high-powered weapon blew the heads apart in ep4, why are there no marks or damage to the building?
I can see two possibilities here:

Dramatic license. Some things just can't be displayed, or it's not worth it to show them. Or it would cheapen the mystery (though Erika might insist on such pathetic details).

Alternately...

The killer is in fact taking precautions somehow. Change of clothes, some kind of covering they discard, or the use of "clean" killing methods such as poison and mutilation after the fact with something less likely to cause the killer to get marked up.

If it were me I'd just go with the first one. Some things just aren't worth going into intimate detail about, even if they matter. The rain is only important for mood most times, so I won't get too torn up over people not noticing somebody is soaked.
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Old 2010-04-14, 23:29   Link #8113
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
From what I know, being shot directly in the heart would kill you pretty much instantly, and even if he remained alive for maybe a minute or two, I don't think he'd be an accurate enough shot at that point to shoot Rudolf in the head.

As for Rudolf being shot to begin with, something's been bothering me for a while: Those are high-power rifles, correct? Wouldn't a bullet fired from a gun like that go THROUGH someone's head? Thus creating a lot more blood than we normally see for the fourth twilight?
We're talking about a duel here. So both of them are going to shoot and it's possible they both were shot at the same time. And really for all we know they might be using pistols.

And I said he was shot in the chest I never said he got his heart directly.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Why not? They aren't exactly the happiest couple in Umineko.
Their not the unhappiest couple either. Besides Rudolf is the most likely dead at that point. What's the point of having him attempt to kill Kyrie if he's already shot dead before that? Point blank between the eyes even?

I also don't see a motive for him to kill his wife. They argue sometimes, but i don't see Rudolf stabbing her.
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Old 2010-04-14, 23:36   Link #8114
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Dramatic license. Some things just can't be displayed, or it's not worth it to show them. Or it would cheapen the mystery (though Erika might insist on such pathetic details).

Alternately...

The killer is in fact taking precautions somehow. Change of clothes, some kind of covering they discard, or the use of "clean" killing methods such as poison and mutilation after the fact with something less likely to cause the killer to get marked up.
It might be some combination of the two. The witch's darkness gives the game master a lot of leeway regarding how events play out. As long as the pieces behave in a rational and in-character manner from their own perspectives, it's alright for Beatrice to have their plans go off with out a hitch (or otherwise, fail in ways that are convenient for her).

Note that this means she can arrange for gunshot wounds to "coincidentally" correspond to epitaph locations without the culprit having explicitly planned for that to happen.
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Old 2010-04-15, 00:11   Link #8115
chronotrig
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As for the blood and the bullet holes, I think it's fair to say that no one on the island really gets into playing detective in the crimes scenes. It's not a sure thing that any bullet holes would be immediately noticeable, and there's no real reason to mention the amount of blood every time someone dies (in fact, we don't even see the "crime discovery" scenes in EP3, just the aftermath and Virgilia's vague report).

However, blood getting on the murderer's clothes is an important point. If someone was planning the murders in advance, they would obviously have set a change somewhere, but getting to it might be hard.

If Shkanontrice is true, then we never have to worry about this in EP1, 2, and 4, oddly enough. Even if you look through every single murder from the perspective that Sayo did it, there's always a way she can change from Kanon to Shannon or vice versa to clean her clothes. The only exception is the first twilight of EP2, but she should have had plenty of time to get a new pair from her room or whatever before the morning.
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Old 2010-04-15, 00:27   Link #8116
Renall
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Well, we have no idea how many sets of clothes anyone has, but my guess is it really doesn't matter that much. I'm willing to accept "they used a gun and coincidentally didn't get splattered" or "they poisoned them and were careful." We can hardly even be sure any of the killings themselves were bloody.
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Old 2010-04-15, 00:55   Link #8117
Kaisos Erranon
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And I said he was shot in the chest I never said he got his heart directly
The stake is embedded directly where his heart should be.

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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I also don't see a motive for him to kill his wife. They argue sometimes, but i don't see Rudolf stabbing her.
I don't see a motive for most people killing most people, to be honest.

What if Rudolf found out what kind of person his wife really is, though? Does he know that Kyrie is, well, kind of evil?

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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Note that this means she can arrange for gunshot wounds to "coincidentally" correspond to epitaph locations without the culprit having explicitly planned for that to happen.
I don't like this. I don't like the idea of relying on narrative coincidence in a murder mystery. Ryukishi's a Christie fan, he should know about the flak she got for pulling stuff like that.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Well, we have no idea how many sets of clothes anyone has, but my guess is it really doesn't matter that much. I'm willing to accept "they used a gun and coincidentally didn't get splattered" or "they poisoned them and were careful." We can hardly even be sure any of the killings themselves were bloody.
Tearing off someone's face with what is probably some kind of power sander isn't bloody?

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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
However, blood getting on the murderer's clothes is an important point. If someone was planning the murders in advance, they would obviously have set a change somewhere, but getting to it might be hard.
What about a raincoat? They're never explicitly mentioned, but I find it hard to believe someone considering murder wouldn't have thought of one.
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Old 2010-04-15, 01:06   Link #8118
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
The stake is embedded directly where his heart should be.
Stake? What stake? I don't see a stake. All I see is fake blood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I don't see a motive for most people killing most people, to be honest.

What if Rudolf found out what kind of person his wife really is, though? Does he know that Kyrie is, well, kind of evil?
I think he's seen a few hints considering the convo in episode 5. That means that talk probably happened in advance. And really I don't see suddenly discovering your wife is evil as a reason to stab her. Or as a reason for murder at all. I'd much rather her be stabbed by somebody else or have Rudolf help her fake her death or something. And considering his wife is evil maybe we should think that Rudolf might be evil too. He did MARRY her and he does collaborate with her a lot in the parent conference.

Also Why doesn't that allow for Hideyoshi to kill her if his wife is evil?

Hideyoshi: "Ha ha ha! I just stabbed your wife"

Rudolf: "You have sullied my honor! we must duel to the death!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I don't like this. I don't like the idea of relying on narrative coincidence in a murder mystery. Ryukishi's a Christie fan, he should know about the flak she got for pulling stuff like that.
Really? I like it a lot. And I think him being a Christie fan supports it.
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Old 2010-04-15, 01:07   Link #8119
Oliver
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Well, we have no idea how many sets of clothes anyone has, but my guess is it really doesn't matter that much. I'm willing to accept "they used a gun and coincidentally didn't get splattered" or "they poisoned them and were careful." We can hardly even be sure any of the killings themselves were bloody.
Actually, with guns, most of the blood would not have a chance to stain the killer unless the body is moved.

But with guns another issue comes up which seems to be never mentioned or described in the text. Almost all of the shots that had to have happened in Umineko would be point blank in terms of forensics, and those normally involve extensive powder burns on clothes and skin, and if you shoot someone by directly putting your weapon to their skin, a very visible 'stamp' will remain.

I'm afraid artistic license is the only reasonable way out here.
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Old 2010-04-15, 01:23   Link #8120
chronotrig
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Actually, with guns, most of the blood would not have a chance to stain the killer unless the body is moved.

But with guns another issue comes up which seems to be never mentioned or described in the text. Almost all of the shots that had to have happened in Umineko would be point blank in terms of forensics, and those normally involve extensive powder burns on clothes and skin, and if you shoot someone by directly putting your weapon to their skin, a very visible 'stamp' will remain.

I'm afraid artistic license is the only reasonable way out here.
Unless the wounds are just covered in blood and no one tries to poke around in there...

Plus, we can't really be sure about the range the shots were fired at. If someone is a good enough shot, it shouldn't be impossible to hit someone in the chest from across the room, even with a sawed off.
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