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Old 2010-04-18, 02:53   Link #8261
Uberzaki
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Join Date: Apr 2010
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Before I display my theory/several theories I want to say this:
- You will not like this, and it may be decried as a troll
- It will make for an interesting read
- If it turns out to be ‘true’, it will break the fanbase.
- It is an epileptic tree, very few of my ideas have any real base for them.
- It does not contain a Shkannon.
- It is a major mindscrew, and I don’t quite know quite what to make of it
- An idea on what the trap is, my theory, however, this theory may be the trap itself, and I need to delve yet deeper into this so called ‘Mystery Fiction’.
- It actually answers very few questions and will look very much more like an essay and will therefore be a bit boring possibly, especially if you don’t like it.
- This whole thing is contradictory, but that may be the point.

THIS IS A BIG ONE, set aside at least twenty minutes of your life. I hope you like it though I’ve counted 1,500 words on this. Enjoy

Chapter 1: Who is the detective?

The reader is the detective. That means us. And we fell for it. Hook, line and sinker. We fell for the trap.

Chapter 2: What is the purpose of the witch’s game?

To make the detective believe in witches. I believe the Witch’s game is actually Umineko itself. But it goes deeper than that, Ryukishi07 was trying to make the reader believe in the witch; or more accurately; the existence of supernatural phenomena. How does he do this? By lulling the reader into a false sense of security this allows the author to lead the reader to unwittingly believe in these supernatural phenomena: This is done by, at first, showing Umineko off to be a work of mystery fiction; that is episode 1. Episode 1 follows a general mystery trend, the reader trusts the author that the mystery is solvable. “Without Love it cannot be seen” indeed.

TL;DR the purpose of Umineko was to make us contradict every rule of detective fiction and dig a hole for ourselves by denying the witch while believing the red.

Chapter 3: The build-up

The reader is introduced to the red text in this chapter, and like everyone else, is sceptical of this red truth. They probably think ‘If it suddenly says “Witches exist”, I’ll deny the red text!” But they’ll gladly take any of these other red truths which make the mystery ‘solvable’. This is in itself paradoxical and is symbolised by the fact that several new Demon characters are introduced.

TL;DR Near the end of Episode 3 Beatrice made Battler plug his ears while she used the red text to defeat her. Was it actually the red text?

Episode 4: The North Wind and the Sun strategy

Ryukishi07 takes the reader from both sides, he introduces a relationship between two enemies in Episode 3, this is shown as the Wham episode of the series with the inclusion of a relationship with Beato, and the introduction of Ange, who is the first character to be fleshed out and rounded.

Chapter 5: Without love it cannot be seen

Ryukishi now introduces something called the ‘Blue Truth’ which the detective can use. So begins the ‘Hook’. Importantly, Battler has gained his first useful idea.

That Kinzo is already dead. Battler trusts Beatrice to tell him the red truth. And the demons are now seen by the other characters; they appear and ultimately kill everyone.

Beatrice sends Battler the test, is he willing to love? To believe in the Witch? He has no love, he only wants to kill the so called culprit. I will stop myself there. We then see Ange die and Battler fully embraces the blue truth to cut every single area of Beatrice. Just like the Epitaph.

This Episode teaches us to stop taking the series seriously, and I did, did you.

Chapter 6: The Rules are broken

Ryukishi introduces the Knox rules. Due to Higurashi he has already programmed us to ‘fight’ him. But used a romance story to sucker us in and forget this paradoxical battle.

The Knox Rules are now shown in the red text. The red text is now true, we do not question it, and through the smart use of red herrings, he has desensitised us to these rules and let us dig ourselves a hole. We are no longer the detective unless we throw away these now seemingly contradictory rules:

Knox's 2nd
It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique. We broke this when we started using the red truth to figure out the mystery.
Knox's 6th
It is forbidden for accident or intuition to be employed as a detective technique. The Knox rules are themselves intuition and are now being used as Detective technique. We broke it.
Knox's 10th
It is forbidden for a character to disguise themselves as another without any clues. The Shkanon theory was created as a special red herring to break this rule, the Meta world itself. By us
Knox's 8th
It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented. No clues in either When They Cry novel can be solved with the clues that are presented; essentially we must follow a different route. We break this rule.
By breaking these rules we have to come to understand that either the red truth is false or the Knox rules are broken by the reader, as well as Battler losing his right to let his interpretations be heard.
Knox's 9th
It is permitted for observers to let their own conclusions and interpretations be heard. This rule was broken for Battler by the end of Episode 5, remember? In conventional mystery novels, the reader is technically not allowed for their interpretations be heard, there is no interaction.
Knox's 3rd
It is forbidden for hidden passages to exist.
We broke this when we discovered where the gold was, it was paradoxical at the start.
Chapter 7: The relationship between Erika, the reader and the Author and the reason we hate her.

Battler from the very start does not make accusations because he is good natured on the chessboard. So we like him, he’s not throwing around accusations all over the place.
Erika is.
She was right about the gold. But we believed her to be wrong due to half of the series. And she fingers Natsuhi as the culprit. She breaks the Knox rules and plays around with the red text in order to come up with the correct culprit. We do it too. Now the game master will killer her off.
Chapter 8: Who is Beatrice?

Beatrice is Ryukishi07, the author, the Gamemaster, the one who decides the culprits. We get sucked into these fantastic rules called the red text, blue text and golden text, and then break the Knox rules due to this.
Chapter 9: The breaking of the fourth wall

Ryukishi did a successful job of driving us into a corner in this; it was fun while it lasted. Battler-kun is not the culprit or the detective, we are both.
I never told anyone except Shannon that I like Fall. [By Natsuhi]
Notice how this is the only piece of red text that uses the first person point of view in universe? It contradicts the red. How come that’s the only time a first person view used red, why nowhere else?
When Dlanor looks at the camera and tells us that we’ve been the detective up to now? She’s the only one who breaks the fourth wall, we just never noticed it. We aren’t allowed to talk.
Unfortunately, she just told the omniscient force called the reader as well, and Battler.
So only Shannon and the reader know that she likes Fall. Who is the murderer?
Us, the reader, the Chinaman, a possible murderer. Either way we either destroy the boundaries of the red text or the mystery genre, or both.
So am I trapped? Yes, but I’m confident this is how it’s gonna turn out.

Chapter 10: The Bittersweet Ending, and possibly Battler’s Sin
The new gamemaster called Battler now has to choose between his pride of denying the witch while denying every rule of Knox and the possibility of a happy ending. Or accepting the witch and pointing the finger at us, the witch and the detective, or letting several people die. I’m gonna enjoy that ending, if Ryukishi pulls something like that off.
One thing’s possible.
This is no mystery, and Maria was telling us this from the beginning.
This could be my trap. Maybe Eva and Erika are the murderers, and lied about the sticky tape to pin the murder on Natsuhi? Perhaps there is a pack of wolves on Rokkenjima for real?. The Chinaman did it! Just kill her off!
Battler might have turned When They Cry into a Mystery, so we now have murderers instead of witches.
Chapter 11 The last straw

We have to assume that the Chinaman is allowed then, because this Knox Decalogue is not the same one from our world, I look forward to the reveal later on. We might have a nineteenth person on the island.
I could keep going, but I’ll stop now. I’ve spent way too much time on this, I might be wrong. And I no longer wanna do the writer’s job (I know that sounds arrogant). This is more of a note section than anything.

When I came up with the idea is was roughly 5 hours ago, I couldn't sleep, I think it's a hypomania episode.

If the 7th Knox rule is something different, it points close to Natsuhi being the murderer with several assassins on the island. Goathead butlers indeed

Last edited by Uberzaki; 2010-04-18 at 02:54. Reason: sooo many misspellings, I'm sleepy, okay?
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Old 2010-04-18, 02:56   Link #8262
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Although I doubt it, it is possible for Battler's high survival rate to be coincidental, at least for those factions not directly interested in him. He knows the least about what's going on and appears to pose very little threat, but is sensible enough to stick with other people and is physically intimidating. He doesn't make a good target in general.
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Old 2010-04-18, 02:56   Link #8263
Uberzaki
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In the end, Ryukishi's goal was to break every rule of detective fiction. It worked brilliantly.
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Old 2010-04-18, 02:59   Link #8264
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We only saw a few select fragments, he might have died in all the others...
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Old 2010-04-18, 03:08   Link #8265
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uberzaki View Post
In the end, Ryukishi's goal was to break every rule of detective fiction. It worked brilliantly.
Man, this probably isn't true, but it would be the best troll ever, even if Ryu07'd lose all credibility as an author and never be able to publish anything ever again.

At least Kojima managed to create a game where the Raiden=player relationship was somewhat subtle...
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Old 2010-04-18, 03:08   Link #8266
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Knox’s 1st: It is forbidden for the culprit to be someone not mentioned in the early part of the story.

This means we must have been introduced to the culprit early in the story. (Not broken)

Knox’s 2nd: It is forbidden for supernatural and paranormal agencies to be used as a detective technique.

This means the detective must use facts to solve the crime. (Semi-broken.)

Knox’s 3rd: It is forbidden for more than one hidden passages to exist. (Hidden meaning the reader doesn’t know about it)

The hidden passage can't have anything to do with the crime itself. It doesn't and we were told about the tunnel so this one wasn't broken.

Knox’s 4th: It is forbidden for unknown drugs or hard to understand scientific devices to be used.

So far as we know this one isn't broken either.

Knox’s 5th: It is forbidden for the culprit to be a foreigner who comes in near the end of the story.

If this one is broken so is number 1

Knox’s 6th: It is forbidden for an accident or intuition to be used as a detective technique.

Theories must be based on facts and thoughts. (Semi-broken)

Knox’s 7th: It is forbidden for the ‘detective’ to be the culprit.

Not broken as we know yet.

Knox’s 8th: It is forbidden for the crime to be solved with clues that are not presented.

This means we must have been given clues. We were told we were, and techincally the red text are clues. So, (not broken)

Knox’s 9th: It is permitted for observers to let their own conclusions and interpretations be heard.

This one can't be broken unless the detective outright lies to us.

Knox’s 10th: It is forbidden for a character to disguise themselves as another without leaving clues.

So far as we know this one isn't broken either.

If Battler is the killer what would be the point. Can we trust anything in Umineko anymore.... And this wouldn't be trust in an author. Ryu07 is trying to get us to trust him and look for the clues that are there, and to believe the red, and other things in the story. If Battler was a lie, then instead of 'Without love the truth can't be seen' it should be 'With trust the truth can't be seen.'
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Old 2010-04-18, 03:09   Link #8267
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Originally Posted by Uberzaki View Post
We only saw a few select fragments, he might have died in all the others...
If you believe fragments/kakera/alternate timelines exist at all. There are several ways to imagine the witch's darkness and what it means, and many of them outright contradict the kakera theory. Which is odd at first, since Battler appears to see them outright and Bern and Lambda refer to them. But there's lots of ways around that notion.
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Old 2010-04-18, 03:11   Link #8268
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I don't think you even understand the rules themselves. I can't argue if your theory is fact or not, but I think a huge hole in your theory is your lack of understanding of the knox's rules in their original and in game context. Their not made to prevent things or be unfair to the reader. Whatever though. I'd like the red to be false too, but yeah your right your theory was probably rushed.
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Old 2010-04-18, 03:18   Link #8269
Uberzaki
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The red truth that natsuhi said was the only time in first person. It was in the past tense. It's now not true because this series has repeatedly broken the fourth wall.
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Old 2010-04-18, 03:21   Link #8270
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
Knox’s 5th: It is forbidden for the culprit to be a foreigner who comes in near the end of the story.
Knox 5 is basically supposed to ban culprits that are 'acceptable targets' or cliched culprits, not just foreigners per se. It's about avoiding that "easy way out" a lot of mysteries of Knox's time had.

"Who's the culprit?"
"It's that Chinese dude over there who has nothing to do with the story or characters."
"Oh, okay. Let's live happily ever after."

The way I see it, Knox 5 in the Uminekoverse would restrict the possible culprits to being one of the 18 as they are presented, denying the theories involving Kasumi, a fake Battler, or Nanjo's granddaughter. I'd like to say it also denies the servants, since they're basically the ultimate cliche culprits, as well.

The culprit/mastermind has to be someone who matters to the story and, more importantly, someone whose identity would be a personal blow to Battler. Otherwise, what's the point?

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Originally Posted by Uberzaki View Post
The red truth that natsuhi said was the only time in first person. It was in the past tense. It's now not true because this series has repeatedly broken the fourth wall.
Whether or not this is true largely depends on the identity of the person Bern and Lambda talk to in the hidden tea parties of Ep1 and 2.

Is it Battler, the reader, or someone else entirely?
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Old 2010-04-18, 03:24   Link #8271
Judoh
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The red truth that natsuhi said was the only time in first person. It was in the past tense. It's now not true because this series has repeatedly broken the fourth wall.
So these two reds are not in first person?

when I speak the truth, I will use red.
Everything I speak in red is the truth

how about this one?

I keep my promises


or how about this one used by Ronove?

I was in the room the whole time

or these?

The sin I am now demanding that you remember is not between Ushiromiya Battler and Beatrice

I am the Golden Witch, Beatrice.

Detective's authority. ......The detective has the right to inspect all crime scenes. Stand back, Ushiromiya Battler. This is an official right of this game, which the human side has acknowledged.
Because I am the detective.


ALL of these are in first person


and if you don't expect anyone to break the fourth wall in a story that's theme is about how to write a mystery novel there is nothing that can save you. It doesn't break any rules. In fact it makes it interesting because it's the first mystery novel to do that.
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Old 2010-04-18, 03:25   Link #8272
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Quote:
Knox 5 is basically supposed to ban culprits that are 'acceptable targets' or cliched culprits, not just foreigners per se. It's about avoiding that "easy way out" a lot of mysteries of Knox's time had.
And this was done because almost all mysteries around that time, just threw in a new character at the end to be the killer. And it was stupid.

Quote:
The way I see it, Knox 5 in the Uminekoverse would restrict the possible culprits to being one of the 18 as they are presented, denying the theories involving Kasumi, a fake Battler, or Nanjo's granddaughter. I'd like to say it also denies the servants, since they're basically the ultimate cliche culprits, as well.
Yeah it restricts it to being the 18 people. But the servants haven't been tossed out knox's 5th was because it isn't even a mystery if a new character just gets thrown in to be the killer, the reader doesn't even get the hear about them until the end when they are caught.

Oh yeah, I copied and pasted knox's rules. Well I cleaned it up a bit, fixed the old english.
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Old 2010-04-18, 03:29   Link #8273
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Yeah it restricts it to being the 18 people. But the servants haven't been tossed out knox's 5th was because it isn't even a mystery is a new character just gets thrown in to be the killer, the reader doesn't even get the hear about them until the end when they are caught.
I think people would riot if the ultimate answer to Umineko was "the butler did it". Which is why I'd really like to exclude the servants even if they're the most suspicious characters after George and Kyrie.

But they're the only people who had the opportunity to commit like half the crimes, so...

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I already said something like this, if true, would break his fanbase apart. But then, may be he wants to risk a controversial ending for fame?
Infamy, more like. He'd never sell another VN.
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Old 2010-04-18, 03:34   Link #8274
Uberzaki
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I've hit rush hour with my theory, either I could discard or improve on it. I need time. I'll try to make it more comprehensible later. Natsuhi was in universe, Beatrice was Meta World this is why I consider that red truth wierd.
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Old 2010-04-18, 03:37   Link #8275
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Quote:
I've hit rush hour with my theory, either I could discard or improve on it. I need time. I'll try to make it more comprehensible later. Natsuhi was in universe, Beatrice was Meta World this is why I consider that red truth wierd.
Only the reader sees the red Natsuhi says. And this whole point is a trap I think. It is to make you think that only Shannon could have down the season trick to Natsuhi.
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Old 2010-04-18, 03:39   Link #8276
Kaisos Erranon
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Only the reader sees the red Natsuhi says. And this whole point is a trap I think. It is to make you think that only Shannon could have down the season trick to Natsuhi.
Yeah, it's already been shown here that he only needed to place four different cards in the room to pull the trick off.

The weird bit is Natsuhi using red in the first place. How is she able to do that?
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Old 2010-04-18, 03:42   Link #8277
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Yeah, it's already been shown here that he only needed to place four different cards in the room to pull the trick off.

The weird bit is Natsuhi using red in the first place. How is she able to do that?
It is probably a trick by Miss Witch of Certainty (my mind is blanking on how to spell her name....)
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Old 2010-04-18, 03:43   Link #8278
Kaisos Erranon
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It is probably a trick by Miss Witch of Certainty (my mind is blanking on how to spell her name....)
Lambdadelta.

Actually, Beatrice did say something about Natsuhi having the power to become a Witch of Certainty... I don't know if that means anything, though.
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Old 2010-04-18, 03:43   Link #8279
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Yeah, it's already been shown here that he only needed to place four different cards in the room to pull the trick off.

The weird bit is Natsuhi using red in the first place. How is she able to do that?
Erika did too remember? Erika also knows things from the meta world she shouldn't know. Some people use that as evidence that Erika is a witch and why she shouldn't exist.

Natsuhi said something she was absolutely 100% sure was true. It's not like she's saying X did X with red when she couldn't have known about it. She's saying something in red with knowledge only she could know on the Umineko gameboard.

With Erika she's saying things with Knowledge from the meta world that she shouldn't know about which is way more suspicious than Natsuhi.
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Old 2010-04-18, 03:45   Link #8280
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Erika did too remember? Erika also knows things from the meta world she shouldn't know. Some people use that as evidence that Erika is a witch and why she shouldn't exist.

Natsuhi said something she was absolutely sure was 100% true it's not like she's saying X did X with red when she couldn't have known about it. She's saying something in red with knowledge only she could know on the Umineko gameboard.

With Erika she's saying things with Knowledge from the meta world which is way more suspicious than Natsuhi.
Agreed. The red is like telling the truth only everyone knows it is the truth. I could say, My real name isn't Laserworm. Because I know 100% that it is true.
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