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Old 2010-04-18, 16:43   Link #8361
LyricalAura
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Join Date: Jun 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Bern hates love stories in mysteries?

Bye bye trap Kanon theory we'll miss you.~
Erika in EP6: "Battler, when are the killings going to start? All this lovey-dovey crap turns my stomach."
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Old 2010-04-18, 16:44   Link #8362
Judoh
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These are the main Van Dine rule Ryukishi makes fun of I think

Quote:
3. There must be no love interest. The business in hand is to bring a criminal to the bar of justice, not to bring a lovelorn couple to the hymeneal altar.
Quote:
13. Secret societies, camorras, mafias, et al., have no place in a detective story. A fascinating and truly beautiful murder is irremediably spoiled by any such wholesale culpability. To be sure, the murderer in a detective novel should be given a sporting chance; but it is going too far to grant him a secret society to fall back on. No high-class, self-respecting murderer would want such odds.
Chronotrig and me would hate this one. I'm partial to George and Hideyoshi being Yakuza myself and it is kind of admitted I think.

Quote:
7. There simply must be a corpse in a detective novel, and the deader the corpse the better. No lesser crime than murder will suffice. Three hundred pages is far too much pother for a crime other than murder. After all, the reader's trouble and expenditure of energy must be rewarded.
If this was a Dine story fake corpses would be out then.


Quote:
Originally Posted by some extra stuff in rule 20
(f)The final pinning of the crime on a twin, or a relative who looks exactly like the suspected, but innocent, person. (g) The hypodermic syringe and the knockout drops. (h) The commission of the murder in a locked room after the police have actually broken in. (i) The word association test for guilt. (j) The cipher, or code letter, which is eventually unraveled by the sleuth.
Broke a bunch of rules there didn't you Ryukishi?
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Old 2010-04-18, 16:48   Link #8363
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Tjfarmer View Post
Ya, right! A male Dine in Umineko? It's gonna be a girl!
Please no. Umineko has enough pointless women. Furthermore, the name "Wright" is obviously masculine.
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Old 2010-04-18, 16:51   Link #8364
Renall
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Then the fact that no "light" was ever mentioned before isn't a good point. Featherinne, Zepar and Furfur are no different.
Except they actually appear in ep6, so the context for their existence is... their existence. If a character corresponding to LIG existed in ep6, we wouldn't have to discuss who they "should" be, because they'd be mentioned already. There's also no actual ambiguity with their character assignations.

By contrast, we're speculating on a character who apparently does not exist in any episode. It's possible it was someone pulled out of thin air, but there is at least evidence of a character with a similar name.

I suppose the easiest thing would be to just have somebody like chrontorig ask them. But I don't know if that contact is still as tight after BT's death, and he might not want to say since it was cut (or delayed, or incomplete) content.

The only other thing I can think of is that it refers to some intended special effect, but since it's calling image files that don't exist at all, that's unlikely. Plus effects go in /efe/.
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Old 2010-04-18, 16:52   Link #8365
Raiza Sunozaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Please no. Umineko has enough pointless women. Furthermore, the name "Wright" is obviously masculine.
Kaisos, he made Virgil, who if I'm right was originally male, into a female. He took both names of the fallen male angel and turned them into the names of some interestingly clothed girls. Ryuukishi loves to play to his otaku fanbase's pervertedness, so I'd be more surprised if we got another male fantasy character beside Ronove and one of the trap twins. Unless it was Dlanor's father.
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Old 2010-04-18, 16:53   Link #8366
Jan-Poo
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The Sumadera are quite clearly a sort of Yakuza group. So the 13rd rule has been broken already, unless it only works in the limit of Beatrice's story.

Quote:
Except they actually appear in ep6, so the context for their existence is... their existence. If a character corresponding to LIG existed in ep6, we wouldn't have to discuss who they "should" be, because they'd be mentioned already. There's also no actual ambiguity with their character assignations.

By contrast, we're speculating on a character who apparently does not exist in any episode. It's possible it was someone pulled out of thin air, but there is at least evidence of a character with a similar name.
Well I give for granted that this "RAITO" is a character that was either cancelled forever or that is bound to appear in EP7.

In the first case we will never know. In the second case the probability of it being Light is the same as being Wright. there is no rule saying that new characters need to have been hinted before.
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Old 2010-04-18, 16:54   Link #8367
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
Unless it was Dlanor's father.
Dlanor gave him the death sentence so I doubt he escaped that.
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Old 2010-04-18, 16:55   Link #8368
SeagullCrazy
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The only other thing I can think of is that it refers to some intended special effect, but since it's calling image files that don't exist at all, that's unlikely. Plus effects go in /efe/.
There's code for it having a TIPS screen, so unless a special effect gets two pages of TIPS then that possibility is out.
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Old 2010-04-18, 16:58   Link #8369
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Dlanor gave him the death sentence so I doubt he escaped that.
I'm still suspicious around the concept of death in the meta-world. Both Battler and Beato got death-sentence'd pretty nicely at the end of Episode 5, but Battler revived himself and (sort of) brought back Beato.
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Old 2010-04-18, 17:00   Link #8370
Renall
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Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
Kaisos, he made Virgil, who if I'm right was originally male, into a female. He took both names of the fallen male angel and turned them into the names of some interestingly clothed girls. Ryuukishi loves to play to his otaku fanbase's pervertedness, so I'd be more surprised if we got another male fantasy character beside Ronove and one of the trap twins. Unless it was Dlanor's father.
I think, on balance, another male character would be interesting. Well, I say that, but we have enough damn meta characters already.
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The Sumadera are quite clearly a sort of Yakuza group. So the 13rd rule has been broken already, unless it only works in the limit of Beatrice's story.
Depends. The secret society thing has to apply to the culprit. If the Sumadera family has no real connection to the crime, it doesn't really break the rules.

I mean, it's a common mystery technique to hint at the involvement of secret societies that aren't really involved. The victim being a Freemason or something, when he was really killed by a jilted lover, that sort of thing.
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Old 2010-04-18, 17:03   Link #8371
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
I'm still suspicious around the concept of death in the meta-world. Both Battler and Beato got death-sentence'd pretty nicely at the end of Episode 5, but Battler revived himself and (sort of) brought back Beato.
Oh of course. I know death in the meta world is not the same kind of thing, but who says that her father was killed in the same meta world we know? It may not even have the same death rules or even the red text rule.

Besides Bern said in episode 5 that Beatrice was already dead in episode 4. Her body exists in a comatose doll like state due to Lambda's shackle rule, but she's still described as being dead.
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Old 2010-04-18, 17:05   Link #8372
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Well, I say that, but we have enough damn meta characters already.
Can't really disagree with this, considering there's 40+ total characters in Umineko, but only 27-ish without the metas.
Still, I won't be surprised if there's two or three new meta characters in Episode 7.
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Old 2010-04-18, 17:08   Link #8373
Renall
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Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
Can't really disagree with this, considering there's 40+ total characters in Umineko, but only 27-ish without the metas.
Still, I won't be surprised if there's two or three new meta characters in Episode 7.
That was a problem I was having with the "fan episode" exercise I'm working on. It's like, do you really want to put in even more characters? It's a mess. I managed to compress everything as best I could by making Virgilia and Ronove prominent, having an excuse for Bern/Lambda/Erika to not be present, and using Meta-Kinzo (whom I'm not even sure is actually supposed to exist independent of Beatrice conjuring him up), but even then I still had to add five characters. No wonder he does it every time.

Plus he probably just wants to draw new outfits. That's the only explanation for Zepar and Furfur I can come up with because jeez.
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Old 2010-04-18, 17:08   Link #8374
goldenlove27
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All I can say is that if we can see how Asumu looks like along with the history with Battlers story then I'm fine with 1 additional character in the meta world.
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Old 2010-04-18, 17:10   Link #8375
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Oh of course. I know death in the meta world is not the same kind of thing, but who says that Wright was killed in the same meta world we know? It may not even have the same death rules or even the red text rule.

Besides Bern said in episode 5 that Beatrice was already dead in episode 4. Her body exists in a comatose doll like state due to Lambda's shackle rule, but she's still described as being dead.
At the same time, who says he wasn't killed in the same (or a similar) meta-world? Ryuukishi enjoys being too vague on the contruct of the meta-world. I'm just thinking along the line of, if Bernkastel brought Dlanor to the game board, it would make sense, if Wright is still "alive," to bring a higher level of furniture to the gameboard to solve the mystery.
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Old 2010-04-18, 17:11   Link #8376
Judoh
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If Sayo disguises as two people (Kanon and Shannon) I want a damn Sayo sprite. Or vice versa if it's Yoshiya. It helps things make sense at least.
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Old 2010-04-18, 17:19   Link #8377
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
At the same time, who says he wasn't killed in the same (or a similar) meta-world? Ryuukishi enjoys being too vague on the contruct of the meta-world. I'm just thinking along the line of, if Bernkastel brought Dlanor to the game board, it would make sense, if Wright is still "alive," to bring a higher level of furniture to the gameboard to solve the mystery.
Or maybe he's like Ange and Featherine and he doesn't intereract with the characters at all. I thought it was kind of funny that there was meta ange still when she supposedly turned into hamburger meat.
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Old 2010-04-18, 17:21   Link #8378
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Or maybe he's like Ange and Featherine and he doesn't intereract with characters at all. I thought it was kind of funny that there was meta ange still when she supposedly turned into hamburger meat.
Yeah, I could kinda see that. Or, he "exists" in Ange and Featherine's meta-world, and acts as another point of view while they analyze the gameboards.
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Old 2010-04-18, 17:22   Link #8379
Renall
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The consistency of the meta and magic world is not something to take too seriously, I think. Remember, the magic world is blatantly contradictory, and the meta-world seems to play fast and loose with character relationships. I wouldn't be able to say whether that's a writer issue or a narrative issue.
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Old 2010-04-18, 17:38   Link #8380
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The consistency of the meta and magic world is not something to take too seriously, I think. Remember, the magic world is blatantly contradictory, and the meta-world seems to play fast and loose with character relationships. I wouldn't be able to say whether that's a writer issue or a narrative issue.
There wasn't any transition into it either. One minute your at a tea table thinking your going to see the characters have an after game session where the talk about the pros and cons of it being a witch's curse or not. Next thing you know everybody, but you believes in the witch and your the sole rational person in this witch's world. Now you have blond haired beauty throwing reds swords at you and Beelzebub is stealing your croissant. It must be torture to be Battler man.
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