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Old 2010-04-18, 17:46   Link #8381
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
Kaisos, he made Virgil, who if I'm right was originally male, into a female. He took both names of the fallen male angel and turned them into the names of some interestingly clothed girls. Ryuukishi loves to play to his otaku fanbase's pervertedness, so I'd be more surprised if we got another male fantasy character beside Ronove and one of the trap twins. Unless it was Dlanor's father.
Which is why he named her "Virgilia". She isn't actually Virgil. I'll give you the stakes, certainly, but I just don't want to think that he'd make someone who's clearly supposed to actually BE Van Dine into a woman, but, then again, perverted fanbase, so...

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I think, on balance, another male character would be interesting. Well, I say that, but we have enough damn meta characters already.
I'd agree with this, but I don't think Ryukishi will ever stop introducing meta-characters. It kind of supports what Beatrice said about Rokkenjima sliding further and further into the magic world, as well.

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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
There wasn't any transition into it either. One minute your at a tea table thinking your going to see the characters have an after game session where the talk about the pros and cons of it being a witch's curse or not. Next thing you know everybody, but you believes in the witch and your the sole rational person in this witch's world. Now you have blond haired beauty throwing reds swords at you and Beelzebub is stealing your croissant. It must be torture to be Battler man.
Ep1 is one big troll for Higurashi players, and the Tea Party is the biggest troll of all.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The consistency of the meta and magic world is not something to take too seriously, I think. Remember, the magic world is blatantly contradictory, and the meta-world seems to play fast and loose with character relationships. I wouldn't be able to say whether that's a writer issue or a narrative issue.
How is the magic world exactly 'contradictory' again?
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Old 2010-04-18, 17:59   Link #8382
Marion
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Introducing meta characters is easier than introducing human characters. With the human characters you're restricted to either characters from the past, which probably don't hold much value to the overall plot (Asumu is the only exception to this so far, but she's dead 6 years before the game opens) or characters in 1998 - which has most likely run its overall course, considering when Ange dies.

Although I wouldn't mind more male characters being introduced. Seriously the female to male ratio is so unbalanced
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Old 2010-04-18, 18:05   Link #8383
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Although I wouldn't mind more male characters being introduced. Seriously the female to male ratio is so unbalanced
Though not really, considering the genre...
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Old 2010-04-18, 18:15   Link #8384
Renall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
How is the magic world exactly 'contradictory' again?
Aw gee this one's tough. Remember, I mean magic - the board-narrative provided by the GM - not meta-world inconsistencies:
  • Kinzo's mental state changes completely between episodes. He's weepy in 1-2, calculating and in control in 3-4, cackling and insane in 4-5. This is not including Natsuhi's Kinzo, whom I consider an entirely different magic Kinzo (and a consistent one, strangely).
  • Beatrice's attitude is very different at times. She shifts between being halfway benevolent, mischevious, and as twisted as Meta-Beatrice as the story necessitates.
  • The abilities and limitations of the witch's furniture change. Sometimes humans are completely helpless, other times humans - even completely non-magical humans (Rudolf and Kyrie) - can defeat them.
  • The powers possessed by Kanon, Shannon, and Genji vary in effectiveness.
  • Characters don't always recognize people in some episodes, then do in others, or characters from the Meta-World appear in the magic one without explanation (Virgilia and Ronove summoned to the board by Kinzo in ep4, yet Virgilia is "sleeping" in Kumasawa in ep3 and Kumasawa is still very much alive in ep4 at that time).
  • The "rules" of magic differ, and how it works also differs. Beatrice is unable to even enter Kinzo's study in ep2 yet can force her way in in ep3. Beatrice is not yet powerful to manifest in ep2 yet can appear from the start in ep3 and doesn't even appear at all until an odd point in ep4.
  • The absence of things on the game board (such as magic circles) which were stated to be necessary parts of the ritual in episodes where they did appear are not particularly problematic to the magic narrative in the self-contained episode.
  • EDIT: Oh, how can I forget? Jessica and George need protection from Kanon/Shannon in ep2 yet are capable of fighting demons and witches on their own in 4 and 6.
  • A rare meta-world contradiction: Battler can be easily harmed in ep2, yet has perfect magic resistance in ep3 and 4, then doesn't again in ep5.
I'm sure there's other stuff, but I can't think of anything offhand.
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Old 2010-04-18, 18:17   Link #8385
Raiza Sunozaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Now you have blond haired beauty throwing reds swords at you and Beelzebub is stealing your croissant. It must be torture to be Battler man.
I found this line highly amusing. Thanks for my daily laugh, Judoh.
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Old 2010-04-18, 18:33   Link #8386
Jan-Poo
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All I can say is that if we can see how Asumu looks like along with the history with Battlers story then I'm fine with 1 additional character in the meta world.
That, and Kinzo's wife name.
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Old 2010-04-18, 18:43   Link #8387
Renall
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I'm going to laugh when Kinzo's wife and Asumu turn out to be the culprits, mad because they didn't get portraits (or a name in the case of Grandma).
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Old 2010-04-18, 18:46   Link #8388
goldenlove27
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
That, and Kinzo's wife name.
Agreed. But that would be only to satisfy our curiosity.

I wonder who will be Bern's new piece on the board. I bet Kryie just because she love smart females to play her role out for her.
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Old 2010-04-18, 18:49   Link #8389
Jan-Poo
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But with Bern as the gamemaster does she really need a piece?
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Old 2010-04-18, 19:05   Link #8390
goldenlove27
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
But with Bern as the gamemaster does she really need a piece?
Well she needs someone to be the detective to show how "evil" the family is so I figured a smart witch needs a smart piece.
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Old 2010-04-18, 19:07   Link #8391
Judoh
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I love how even before the Knox's rules were introduced Evatrice denied a witch could be the culprit although maybe by accident since they were talking about nonhuman culprits.

Absolutely no factors other than humans participate in this game board
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Old 2010-04-18, 19:14   Link #8392
Jan-Poo
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Hmmmmm... a game is not a game if there isn't a challenge... unless Featherinne is planning to change Beato's game into a solitaire Bern needs to have an opponent.

Of course the opponent of a gamemaster can only be the detective.

I wonder... do I need to expect a paradoxical game where the gamemaster tries to make all mysteries become apparent while the detective tries to find "holes" in the explanations so to keep the catbox closed?
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Old 2010-04-18, 19:22   Link #8393
ameskitty
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Originally Posted by Renall
I'm sure there's other stuff, but I can't think of anything offhand
I've mentioned this before, but it's worth adding here. I think the "magic butterfly brooch" gained a ton of random importance levels between EP2 and EP6. In EP2 Shannon throws it off to Kanon because she didn't want "too much of a good thing" (an analogy about how tea steeped too long becomes bitter or something like that), and in EP6 they can't be successful without it and they're fighting to the death over it. "Furniture" in general is kind of going in an inconsistent/dualistic direction.

A few of yours' can be attributed to the dual nature of Beatrice and the "increase in magical disorder" from EP1 onwards, but your point remains. There are a lot of things that "don't fit" even considering that. (such as how characters like George and Jessica should definitely not be remembering who Gaap and Ronove are, at least to the point that they can summon them for help - only Shannon and Kanon appear to remember previous episodes and act fairly consistently in that regard)
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Old 2010-04-18, 19:23   Link #8394
Raiza Sunozaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Hmmmmm... a game is not a game if there isn't a challenge... unless Featherinne is planning to change Beato's game into a solitaire Bern needs to have an opponent.

Of course the opponent of a gamemaster can only be the detective.

I wonder... do I need to expect a paradoxical game where the gamemaster tries to make all mysteries become apparent while the detective tries to find "holes" in the explanations so to keep the catbox closed?
I was under the impression that Episode 7 was going to be Bernkastel ripping open the catbox, but if she has to play to the Illusion of the Witch, I suppose Featherine will play the detective for her. Either that or Featherine will get lazy and get Ange to do it. Which would be something of a sweet revenge, in my opinion.
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Old 2010-04-18, 19:24   Link #8395
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I wonder... do I need to expect a paradoxical game where the gamemaster tries to make all mysteries become apparent while the detective tries to find "holes" in the explanations so to keep the catbox closed?
If I were to choose a detective for such a paradoxical game I would choose either Maria or Beatrice (maybe Nanjo too). Although I don't see why Battler wouldn't be a good opponent since he switched sides.

I've been expecting something like this though. I'm hoping for an infinite game end for Battler. Sounds bitter sweet to me.
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Old 2010-04-18, 19:30   Link #8396
Jan-Poo
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I hope not Maria, it's kinda sad but in EP6 she failed miserably and only a "diplomat" intervention saved her from total defeat...
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Old 2010-04-18, 19:44   Link #8397
ameskitty
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Furude Rika, complete with nipaa~.

Joking aside, it doesn't really sound like this game will need a meta-detective. It sounds like Featherine will be plenty, along with Ange's comments.

What it probably will have is a different main character, especially with what Ryu's been saying. I'd say Kanon only because he's probably not Beatrice and he seems to know at least some of what's going on, but given that there was almost a bit too much of him in EP6, I doubt it. I can't think of any other characters that would make sense, at least of the non-culprit variety, so maybe it really will just be floaty-ghost-Ange or something.

(Maybe she'll choose Beatrice herself/*cough* Shannon for irony/humiliation's sake?)
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Old 2010-04-18, 20:27   Link #8398
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Hmmmmm... a game is not a game if there isn't a challenge... unless Featherinne is planning to change Beato's game into a solitaire Bern needs to have an opponent.

Of course the opponent of a gamemaster can only be the detective.

I wonder... do I need to expect a paradoxical game where the gamemaster tries to make all mysteries become apparent while the detective tries to find "holes" in the explanations so to keep the catbox closed?
Whatever Bern and Featherinne plan to do, I think we can definitely expect heavy interference from Battler and Beato, especially if they can still exert some influence over the board. Since there's apparently a mechanic for the players switching sides mid-game depending on who poses mysteries to who, it could end up as a huge mystery-writing duel to control interpretation of the board.
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Old 2010-04-18, 20:27   Link #8399
Marion
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Kanon is probably the most suspicious character in the entire game. You can pretty much blame the entirety of EP 1 on him for instance. I can't see such a highly suspected character being the detective. The reason Battler is the detective is because he is coming to Rokkenjima after 6 years, wanting a fun vacation. He has been out of touch with pretty much his entire family in that time span, so plotting a murder is impossible.

With that being said, if there is a new detective the next character I would pick would be Rudolf. No, I'm not kidding. Rudolf is probably the least suspected person after Battler. He dies almost as fast as Rosa does, especially in the question arcs where he only makes it up to the 4th twilight overall before kicking the bucket. Not to mention he has that incredibly harmless asshole personality, similar to Battler's own. Plus this would actually be a good way for him to have character development, which is much needed, and possibly get the entire baby switching nonsense cleared up. No matter what you tell me I can't see him as being a culprit. He might attack some people to protect his family, but plotting to kill seems out of it.

I would pick Kyrie, just because she's as well versed in mysteries as Battler and is the one who introducing the flipping chessboard mentality. But at the same time, she's also very suspicious.
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Old 2010-04-19, 00:14   Link #8400
Dlanor .A. Nox
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I agree that Rudolph is one of the least suspicious characters in Umineko, not because he is just Battler's father but also because he seems to be honest. Rudolph went on his hands and knees to ask for his forgiveness if we can believe Battler's words.
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