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Old 2010-04-19, 18:09   Link #8421
Marion
The Great Dine
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Am I the only one here who thinks Nanjo would make a cool detective? I'd like to know what's going on with him.

Also why can't Battler be the detective in episode 7?
What would be the point of him being the detective when he claims to already understand a direct answer. The point of the detective is to solve the game, but Battler has done that. That's why he upgraded to a GM after all - why downgrade back to detective?
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Old 2010-04-19, 18:17   Link #8422
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
Starting when Maria’s key was received, and until the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day, the letter passed through no one’s hands.

After Maria put the letter in her bag, no one touched it until Rosa opened it in the morning.
What does "passed through no one's hands" actually signify?

Couldn't it mean "it didn't leave Maria's possession"?
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Old 2010-04-19, 18:18   Link #8423
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
What would be the point of him being the detective when he claims to already understand a direct answer. The point of the detective is to solve the game, but Battler has done that. That's why he upgraded to a GM after all - why downgrade back to detective?
Um... to not prolong the story unnecessarily and actually solve the game? Duh? Besides Piece Battler doesn't have that knowledge. Or he shouldn't IMO. So far the detective hasn't solved anything in game anyway. He's only given us clues. It doesn't seem like the detective is actually supposed to solve this by himself.
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Old 2010-04-19, 18:29   Link #8424
Marion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Um... to not prolong the story unnecessarily and actually solve the game? Duh? Besides Piece Battler doesn't have that knowledge. Or he shouldn't IMO. So far the detective hasn't solved anything in game anyway. He's only given us clues. It doesn't seem like the detective is actually supposed to solve this by himself.
There is more than one answer. This is obvious enough - Battler's version of the answer was sabotaged by Erika, so we didn't see what happened next. But you can't say that what he was planning is wrong because of that. Featherinne has her own version of the answer as well, as she stated in the end of EP 6.

As for not solving everything in the game - at the end of EP 6 the Stakes stated that Erika solved all the mysteries but the logic error by the time the duel came along. So yes, the detective's job is to solve everything. Who else will solve it in the game.
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Old 2010-04-19, 18:43   Link #8425
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I think the gold about Kinzo's corpse pretty much disproves it, but that's just me. I also think the personality thing would make the count 19 people again with Erika as the 19th person, but that's just me too.
Ahh, here we go.

No murders occurred before midnight. From midnight until the following morning, Kinzo remained in the same room. At midnight, all living people not specifically named were in the dining room, and they remained there until 1:00am. Therefore, Kinzotrice participated in the family conference and was murdered in the dining room after everyone left. The body was never discovered because no one ever returned to the dining room on October 5th. This does not conflict with any red or Battler's gold about the existence of Kinzo's corpse.

Furthermore, under this theory, the person limit counts bodies rather than personalities. Therefore, Erika would not affect the limit. Shkannon and Kinzotrice are four personalities, but only two bodies, so the total number of bodies is seventeen.

IT LIVES.
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Old 2010-04-19, 18:44   Link #8426
Oliver
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Join Date: Apr 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
What does "passed through no one's hands" actually signify?

Couldn't it mean "it didn't leave Maria's possession"?
I would expect it means "wasn't touched by anyone", including Maria, who carries the bag and doesn't need to touch the letter itself.

I noticed something interesting upon reread of Ep2, though.

Upon discovering the bodies, it is not clear if, after leaving, Rosa definitely locked the door. But later, in a magic scene, when George and company are going there for Natsuhi's key, Gohda claims she did, so they have to break a window to enter. That they do soon after. And then, they leave, running from Suit-Beatrice.

Through the door. Which gets stuck. George even narrates, "I can't leave it to strength, it needs the right angle or some trick." Eventually he succeeds.

What if the lock is simply broken and the door just sticks on the slightly extended bolt? It only gets opened a few times a year anyway and nobody even comes near all the other time. Either the red It is umpossible to unlock the lock to the chapel without the chapel's key. does not deny the chapel door having a handle on inside, or it does not deny that it is impossible to lock or unlock the chapel door even with the chapel's key because the lock doesn't work. It may prevent all entry and exit if it's locked - it just never is.
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Old 2010-04-19, 18:51   Link #8427
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
IT LIVES.
In my opinion, this most excellent bit of insanity is the best argument against the concept of 'personality death can be proclaimed in red' that there ever was.
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Old 2010-04-19, 19:08   Link #8428
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Ahh, here we go.

No murders occurred before midnight. From midnight until the following morning, Kinzo remained in the same room. At midnight, all living people not specifically named were in the dining room, and they remained there until 1:00am.
When was this red stated? I can't find it anywhere. I see a red about the dining room at 1:00 Am, nut no red this specific about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Therefore, Kinzotrice participated in the family conference and was murdered in the dining room after everyone left. The body was never discovered because no one ever returned to the dining room on October 5th. This does not conflict with any red or Battler's gold about the existence of Kinzo's corpse.

Furthermore, under this theory, the person limit counts bodies rather than personalities. Therefore, Erika would not affect the limit. Shkannon and Kinzotrice are four personalities, but only two bodies, so the total number of bodies is seventeen.
Explain this then

[Since he's confirmed not to exist, please exclude him.] I acknowledge that all other people are in the cousins' room.

Why was Kinzo excluded? And Where is his Beatrice personality if she is not one of the "all of the other people in the cousin's room". Under your theory Beatrice personality uses Kinzo's body so it is impossible for his body to be excluded and for all other people to be in the cousin's room.
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Old 2010-04-19, 19:11   Link #8429
Renall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Explain this then

[Since he's confirmed not to exist, please exclude him.] I acknowledge that all other people are in the cousins' room.

Why was Kinzo excluded? And Where is his Beatrice personality if she is not one of the "all of the other people in the cousin's room". Under your theory Beatrice personality uses Kinzo's body so it is impossible for his body to be excluded and for all other people to be in the cousin's room.
I don't see anything in that red statement that says he did exclude Kinzo.
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Old 2010-04-19, 19:15   Link #8430
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I don't see anything in that red statement that says he did exclude Kinzo.
But that's absurd. None of the "I acknowledge it" reds make any sense via context in that case. And there is no other canon character he could be referring to as "he doesn't exist".

Furthermore for him to be in the cousin's room he would have to be seen by many people.
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Old 2010-04-19, 19:21   Link #8431
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
When was this red stated? I can't find it anywhere. I see a red about the dining room at 1:00 Am, nut no red this specific about it.
I combined a couple of separate statements to make my point:
At the stroke of midnight, besides Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji in the 2nd floor hallway and everyone in the dining room, absolutely no other humans existed inside the mansion.
At the stroke of midnight, the only people who exist outside the mansion are Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa!
At the stroke of midnight, Natsuhi, Krauss, and Genji were on the 2nd floor of the mansion. The others were all in the family conference in the dining room. Of course, at this point no murders have taken place. Genji is also alive and well.
Of the people who were in the dining room, not a single one of them left until 1am…!
From midnight until the following morning, Kinzo remained in the same room.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh
Explain this then

[Since he's confirmed not to exist, please exclude him.] I acknowledge that all other people are in the cousins' room.

Why was Kinzo excluded? And Where is his Beatrice personality if she is not one of the "all of the other people in the cousin's room". Under your theory Beatrice personality uses Kinzo's body so it is impossible for his body to be excluded and for all other people to be in the cousin's room.
Certainly. Erika stated that she was interested in the locations of bodies, regardless of whether they were living or dead. Taking this into account, Battler initially objected to Erika's "everyone else" request because it would place Kinzo's body in the cousins' room. Therefore, what Erika requested he exclude from the check was Kinzo's body, which would naturally include any personalities residing in it. This is the same trick used to repair the logic error with Shkannon.
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Old 2010-04-19, 19:23   Link #8432
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Ahh, here we go.

No murders occurred before midnight. From midnight until the following morning, Kinzo remained in the same room. At midnight, all living people not specifically named were in the dining room, and they remained there until 1:00am. Therefore, Kinzotrice participated in the family conference and was murdered in the dining room after everyone left. The body was never discovered because no one ever returned to the dining room on October 5th. This does not conflict with any red or Battler's gold about the existence of Kinzo's corpse.

Furthermore, under this theory, the person limit counts bodies rather than personalities. Therefore, Erika would not affect the limit. Shkannon and Kinzotrice are four personalities, but only two bodies, so the total number of bodies is seventeen.

IT LIVES.
I doubt that nobody returned to the dining room in october5 because Erika had to make a search of the whole first floor in order to let Bern say: "no living Kinzo exists in the first floor". Of course this red doesn't goes against a dead Kinzo in the dining room, but it kinda proves that the dining room was checked.

just nitpicking, you could still say that they found Kinzo's dead body and pretend they didn't see him.
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Old 2010-04-19, 19:23   Link #8433
Renall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Certainly. Erika stated that she was interested in the locations of bodies, regardless of whether they were living or dead. Taking this into account, Battler initially objected to Erika's "everyone else" request because it would place Kinzo's body in the cousins' room. Therefore, what Erika requested he exclude from the check was Kinzo's body, which would naturally include any personalities residing in it. This is the same trick used to repair the logic error with Shkannon.
At the risk of defending Shkanon, are you sure of that? How do they equivocate exactly?
Quote:
just nitpicking, you could still say that they found Kinzo's dead body and pretend they didn't see him.
"Nothing in here but dad's corpse in a blonde wig."

"I wouldn't put it past Father."

EDIT: Now I'm imagining Kinzo walking into the dining room in a dress and a blonde wig and just randomly killing himself for no reason.
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Old 2010-04-19, 19:29   Link #8434
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Lol... that or...

Gohda: Miss Erika I just come from the dining room and... oh my God... oh my God!

Erika: Gohda-san, calm down please, did you find a living Kinzo there? ^^

Gohda: No, but that's the point...

Erika: Good! Then let's search on the next room.

Gohda: No you don't understand!

Erika: I understand that there is no living Kinzo in the dining room! Is there any misunderstanding?

Gohda: No...

Erika: Then I can't see the problem!

Gohda: but!

Erika: Shut up! Go back to the kitchen!

Gohda: Yes ma'am!

*runs away*
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Old 2010-04-19, 19:30   Link #8435
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
What if the lock is simply broken and the door just sticks on the slightly extended bolt? It only gets opened a few times a year anyway and nobody even comes near all the other time. Either the red It is impossible to unlock the lock to the chapel without the chapel's key. does not deny the chapel door having a handle on inside, or it does not deny that it is impossible to lock or unlock the chapel door even with the chapel's key because the lock doesn't work. It may prevent all entry and exit if it's locked - it just never is.
So when Rosa went to unlock the door, she just happened to turn it at the right angle in order to get it open? I guess that works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Furthermore for him to be in the cousin's room he would have to be seen by many people.
So? Erika's perspective is unreliable in Ep6. He could have been playing chess with Nanjo the whole time and she wouldn't have noticed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Now I'm imagining Kinzo walking into the dining room in a dress and a blonde wig and just randomly killing himself for no reason.
I wouldn't put it past him.
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Old 2010-04-19, 19:34   Link #8436
LyricalAura
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Join Date: Jun 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I doubt that nobody returned to the dining room in october5 because Erika had to make a search of the whole first floor in order to let Bern say: "no living Kinzo exists in the first floor". Of course this red doesn't goes against a dead Kinzo in the dining room, but it kinda proves that the dining room was checked.

just nitpicking, you could still say that they found Kinzo's dead body and pretend they didn't see him.
Someone necessarily managed to get away from the main group and murder the first twilight victims after 7:00am. During this period, they could also have also moved Kinzo's body. Its location is only specified up until morning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
At the risk of defending Shkanon, are you sure of that? How do they equivocate exactly?"Nothing in here but dad's corpse in a blonde wig."

"I wouldn't put it past Father.".
I don't have the script handy, but this is what I have in my notes:

Erika: Request: “All other people are in the cousins’ room!”
Battler hesitates at the word “all people”; he gets a gut feeling that he shouldn’t answer that immediately
Battler: I refuse. Repeating it would mean Kinzo’s corpse is in the cousins’ room.
Erika: Kinzo was already shown not to exist, so consider “all people” to exclude him

This explains why everyone accepted that he could have jumped out the study window, doesn't it? If I found out my father had faked his death for two years and then he showed up crossdressing at the family conference, I wouldn't put anything past him either.
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Old 2010-04-19, 19:37   Link #8437
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
I combined a couple of separate statements to make my point:
At the stroke of midnight, besides Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji in the 2nd floor hallway and everyone in the dining room, absolutely no other humans existed inside the mansion.
At the stroke of midnight, the only people who exist outside the mansion are Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa!
At the stroke of midnight, Natsuhi, Krauss, and Genji were on the 2nd floor of the mansion. The others were all in the family conference in the dining room. Of course, at this point no murders have taken place. Genji is also alive and well.
Of the people who were in the dining room, not a single one of them left until 1am…!
From midnight until the following morning, Kinzo remained in the same room.
None of these red say nobody was murdered before midnight. So I think you can leave that out. In fact I'd prefer that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Certainly. Erika stated that she was interested in the locations of bodies, regardless of whether they were living or dead. Taking this into account, Battler initially objected to Erika's "everyone else" request because it would place Kinzo's body in the cousins' room. Therefore, what Erika requested he exclude from the check was Kinzo's body, which would naturally include any personalities residing in it. This is the same trick used to repair the logic error with Shkannon.
I'm not sure about the initial rejection either.

So since Battler objected to it to and Erika requested he to exclude Kinzo's body. Does that intitially suggest he only excluded the dead body of the old man or the living body with an alternate personality? So isn't it possible that he excluded a dead Kinzo and left it open for a living Kinzo to exist in the cousin's room? or were they all dead before that?

If both are excluded. Where does the living body of Kinzotrice initially exist?
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Old 2010-04-19, 19:47   Link #8438
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
None of these red say nobody was murdered before midnight. So I think you can leave that out. In fact I'd prefer that.
At the stroke of midnight, Natsuhi, Krauss, and Genji were on the 2nd floor of the mansion. The others were all in the family conference in the dining room. Of course, at this point no murders have taken place. Genji is also alive and well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh
I'm not sure about the initial rejection either.

So since Battler objected to it to and Erika requested he to exclude Kinzo's body. Does that intitially suggest he only excluded the dead body of the old man or the living body with an alternate personality? So isn't it possible that he excluded a dead Kinzo and left it open for a living Kinzo to exist in the cousin's room? or were they all dead before that?

If both are excluded. Where does the living body of Kinzotrice initially exist?
Well, based on the context that Erika was asking about body locations, I would interpret it to mean that "the body of Kinzo, regardless of whether it was alive or dead" was excluded from the check. You could probably make an argument for a different interpretation depending on your beliefs though.

Just to be clear, I don't actually believe in this theory. I'm just pushing it as far as I can as a thought experiment attacking the "dead personalities" thing.
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Old 2010-04-19, 19:50   Link #8439
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
So? Erika's perspective is unreliable in Ep6. He could have been playing chess with Nanjo the whole time and she wouldn't have noticed.
Doesn't matter

Nobody would mistake Kinzo by sight Knox's 7th and Knox's 9th don't matter here. If a living Kinzo was in that room there is no way we can deny a person's perspective because they are seeing Kinzo. In other words if anybody sees a living Kinzo detective or not it cannot be mistaken for something else due to the red truth. And the red truth can't lie about him being in the room if you don't exclude him.

This is true even if he had a Beatrice personality. I don't care if you argue that he had a personality either. However I think it's absurd because we're turning off and on who counts now. Either that or the personalities never counted in the first place and we have a bunch of different bodies that are counted that are being possessed by different personalities.

EDIT: If Kinzo is alive. I'd assume he's going through Delirium and everybody wants to hide him. He wouldn't be playing chess in that case. Maybe he's reliving old war memories.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-04-19 at 20:05.
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Old 2010-04-19, 20:05   Link #8440
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Nobody would mistake Kinzo by sight Knox's 7th and Knox's 9th don't matter here. If a living Kinzo was in that room there is no way we can deny a person's perspective because they are seeing Kinzo. In other words if anybody sees a living Kinzo detective or not it cannot be mistaken for something else due to the red truth. And the red truth can't lie about him being in the room if you don't exclude him.
Well then, Kinzo was hiding in the closet. Playing chess with himself. And no one ever bothered to look because the Ushiromiyas have an aversion to looking inside closets.
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