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Old 2010-04-20, 01:51   Link #8481
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Not offended, but curious about why you think Shhanon is so bad. If it just doesn't match your tastes, that's no reason to go bashing the author who wrote it. If Umineko isn't part of a genre you like, it's probably better to move on instead of complaining.
E-excuse me? How does me not liking the sheer ridiculousness of the theory have anything to do with me not liking MYSTERIES?

I think Shkanon is bad because it's improbable, unrealistic, and entirely against the stated themes of LOVE no I don't care what Ep6 says. It also solves absolutely nothing by itself, as it's never the only solution to any given problem.

You also have to make a ridiculous amount of unprovable assumptions to make ANY Shkanon theory work.

It's too SILLY to be true. And yet I wouldn't put it past BrainParasites07. (Just because he admits his mistakes doesn't mean he's incapable of falling into them again.)

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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Point is in Ryukishi's stories lack of character development = suspicious. Getting loads of character development means you are not suspicious.
Ah, no, I wasn't saying that wasn't true. I realize my earlier comment was probably uncalled for. What I meant was that he could have probably balanced the Ange/Maria flashbacks a lot better by, say, interspersing them throughout the episode rather than a huge whackload at once. Nor was the sheer volume of content needed. You can't tell me either of them needed THAT much character development to be considered innocent.

Also, nothing prevents Ange from being directly connected to the murders in some way she might not understand, either.
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Old 2010-04-20, 02:02   Link #8482
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
E-excuse me? How does me not liking the sheer ridiculousness of the theory have anything to do with me not liking MYSTERIES?
Because Umineko does not fit into the normal mystery genre. This should have been apparent ever since magic started showing up in scenes and the meta-world was shown, but Ryuukishi even goes and practically says it at the end of EP6. ("Won't people complain, saying that this isn't 'mystery'?") A mystery novel would rarely spend such huge parts of the openings on character development or story development (most mysteries don't have a very long or compelling backstory), and it wouldn't use things like the colored texts in it.
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Last edited by chronotrig; 2010-04-20 at 02:34.
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Old 2010-04-20, 02:40   Link #8483
Judoh
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Okay I was holding out on this, but I'm going to release the beast now.
  • Shkanon: The origin of Shkanon theory is that the Detective Battler never sees Shannon and Kanon together, and that therefore they could be the same person. Kanon is usually described as a personality or an imaginary friend. These are often used by Shkanon theories as a definition fo furniture. To get around the location check this theory assumes that the blue truth seal was removed later for being unfair. However if you assume this you must also accept another possibility.

  • Kouji: George and Kanon are never seen together. Not only when Battler is around But they are also never seen together in the intros to any of the games. There is no time in any game where Kanon and George have a conversation together. Therefore if you have the assumption above since George and Shannon are both in the neighboring room there is a possibility of George and Kanon being the same person under your theory.

  • Erika's theory: Erika seems to have her own answer separate from Battler's. She made the theory that Kanon's real name could be George. Why George in particular? Why Not suspect Shannon? A form of her theory can be true if her original reason for making this theory was that Kanon and George are not two different people.

EDIT:

More evidence for Kouji theory.
  • Episode 3: Eva is shown to have an alternate personality of a highschool (possibly 16) version of herself . If George and Kanon are the same person episode 3 hints that having multiple personalities of your teenage counterpart is something George inherited GENETICALLY

  • Deaths: Nowhere do George an Kanon ever die together. By this I mean that George and Kanon never died together in the first twilight and they don't die in twilights close to each other either.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-04-20 at 03:07.
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Old 2010-04-20, 03:20   Link #8484
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Because Umineko does not fit into the normal mystery genre. This should have been apparent ever since magic started showing up in scenes and the meta-world was shown, but Ryuukishi even goes and practically says it at the end of EP6. ("Won't people complain, saying that this isn't 'mystery'?") A mystery novel would rarely spend such huge parts of the openings on character development or story development (most mysteries don't have a very long or compelling backstory), and it wouldn't use things like the colored texts in it.
I've read (and enjoyed) mysteries with a primary focus on character development before. Endless Night, for example.

What attracts me to Umineko isn't just the mystery, but the characters... although, to be frank, I don't find Shannon or Kanon (or their relationships) to be particularly compelling. I prefer the adults.

Regardless, I long for the more standard days of Ep1 when things weren't so... bloated. I'm not the only one who feels like that either.

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Kouji
Wait. You're 100% certain of this? That they've never been seen together? I've been looking for something like this forever. Thank you.
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Old 2010-04-20, 03:29   Link #8485
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Wait. You're 100% certain of this? That they've never been seen together? I've been looking for something like this forever. Thank you.
I'm 95% certain.

There are just two scenes that are problematic. The scene where Kanon leaves the chapel and dies in Jessica's room. And the scene where Kanon is introduced in episode 1. Other than that...

EDIT: I can get around episode 2 though.

Since George = Kanon obviously Kanon never left the chapel.

Nanjo pretended to find a master key in Jessica's pocket.

George simply had a stomach wound in Natsuhi's room. After Rosa and Battler left, George, having Ordered Shannon to kill Jessica, mourned over Jessica's body at the end of the game and died in Jessica's room.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-04-20 at 03:44.
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Old 2010-04-20, 03:42   Link #8486
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
But I've never come across a meditation exercise where you create a fictional world in your head where imaginary persons exist. No such thing would help you "find yourself". Which is generally the purpose of such things.
So writing a book on deeply personal things doesn't improve the writer's understanding of them?

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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Because Umineko does not fit into the normal mystery genre.
It nevertheless has to be internally consistent if it wants to be a good story.

There are a few principles in literary criticism that largely remain undeniable as literary criticism evolves, because they are principles of reading itself:
  • The world described is a world measurably, minimally different from the one available to us as an experience, to the limits of author's ability, that is. You can write a book about pet rocks, but unless you assign human-like personality to them it won't be comprehensible. You can write a book about spaceships and laser sword duels, but unless the reader already knows what those might be, even if they don't really exist, they cannot be imagined and the world cannot be completed. All reading of fiction starts with the assumption that the world described is as we know it, and it is author's responsibility to describe where it isn't to point us in the right direction.
  • The text is a possibly inaccurate account of something that occurred in that world. Without assuming that, discussion of characters is simply meaningless.

The problem of Shkanon is not the concept of characters-within-characters, this has been done before, sometimes to great effect. The problem is that in this particular case, assuming that Shkanon exists necessarily involves lots of other things being possible - like perfect disguise, or puzzling acceptance by other characters, or twisting the established rules of red that are presented as a formal logical puzzle, or assuming that magic that can break the laws of physics does exist in the world. On the small list of assumed differences-from-world-as-experienced, Shkanon quickly becomes a cancerous growth which involves adding assumption after assumption just to make the whole thing internally consistent.

There has to be a smoother way for Kanon not to exist.
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Old 2010-04-20, 03:46   Link #8487
siberius
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In the episode 5 Kanon and Shannon are in the same room with Erica. We also know that in ep 5 Erica is the detective. That means it is impossible for Kanon and Shannon to be one person.
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Old 2010-04-20, 03:50   Link #8488
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Originally Posted by siberius View Post
In the episode 5 Kanon and Shannon are in the same room with Erica. We also know that in ep 5 Erica is the detective. That means it is impossible for Kanon and Shannon to be one person.
We've been trying this argument for a while, but since the scene wasn't from Erika's perspective, it's useless. It's all useless.

Unless the detective NARRATES the scene or red validates the scene in question, it might well have never happened, at least not in the way it's presented to us.

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*snip*
You, sir, have a gift with language. Thank you for that post.
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Old 2010-04-20, 03:52   Link #8489
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
The problem of Shkanon is not the concept of characters-within-characters, this has been done before, sometimes to great effect. The problem is that in this particular case, assuming that Shkanon exists necessarily involves lots of other things being possible - like perfect disguise, or puzzling acceptance by other characters, or twisting the established rules of red that are presented as a formal logical puzzle, or assuming that magic that can break the laws of physics does exist in the world. On the small list of assumed differences-from-world-as-experienced, Shkanon quickly becomes a cancerous growth which involves adding assumption after assumption just to make the whole thing internally consistent.

There has to be a smoother way for Kanon not to exist.
Wait, why does this need a perfect disguise? People seem to assume that they're siblings, so they wouldn't take notice if the two looked similar. People used to confuse me with my brother all the time, even though he was more than a year younger than me. "Kanon" only existed for 3 years, was only on the island some of the time, and was ignored by everyone except Jessica (plus several servants, as well as Kinzo, probably knew about his secret). As far as we know, he and Shannon were only on the island at the same time for a couple days each year at the most. This is definitely not impossible to pull off.

And who said anything about magic that can break the laws of physics? There's nothing supernatural about Shkanontrice (though the meta-world itself is clearly not normal). Just because someone believes that magic exists doesn't mean that it actually does.

And furthermore, you say "the established rules of the red text" when there are none. The only rule of the red text is that the red text must be the truth. We have already seen in EP5 that it is a literal truth since "Kinzo" said in red can refer to either a living or dead person. The red means nothing more or less that what it says, and it never says that Shannon and Kanon must refer to separate human beings.
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Old 2010-04-20, 03:53   Link #8490
Oliver
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Originally Posted by siberius View Post
In the episode 5 Kanon and Shannon are in the same room with Erica. We also know that in ep 5 Erica is the detective. That means it is impossible for Kanon and Shannon to be one person.
Unfortunately the problem with that counterargument is that Erika's own existence is questioned and put into major doubt in Ep6.
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Old 2010-04-20, 03:58   Link #8491
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The red means nothing more or less that what it says, and it never says that Shannon and Kanon must refer to separate human beings.
You did not just say that.

You did not just say that "the red doesn't say it isn't true, so it must be."

I can't believe it.
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Old 2010-04-20, 03:59   Link #8492
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
You did not just say that.

You did not just say that "the red doesn't say it isn't true, so it must be."

I can't believe it.
Of course I didn't say that. Try again.
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Old 2010-04-20, 04:08   Link #8493
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Unless the detective NARRATES the scene or red validates the scene in question, it might well have never happened, at least not in the way we see it.
Ok that might be the true. But are there any scenes narrated by Erica in the real world of ep 5?


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Unfortunately the problem with that counterargument is that Erika's own existence is questioned and put into major doubt in Ep6.
So basically the whole real world of ep 5 is useless??


There is some read that suggests that Erica exist:
Furudo Erika only increases it by one person

It was impossible to reach the second floor of the guesthouse without passing through the lounge, and impossible to reach it at all without Erika, who was in the lounge, knowing about it!

Erika was with Nanjo the whole time until 3:00 AM.

Last edited by siberius; 2010-04-20 at 04:23.
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Old 2010-04-20, 04:56   Link #8494
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I begin to question whether or not adding Erika to the game was such good idea... Do you guys think that there's a hidden meaning to her character?
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Old 2010-04-20, 05:12   Link #8495
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I think she was a trap for people who don't understand that the story of the gameboard itself is fiction and will end up confusing the fiction of the story with supposed real events. In fiction you can insert characters that do preposterous things. For example people scoff at how she could have nearly drowned, then got out in a swimsuit to seal the guesthouse. Then stayed up all night without falling asleep (after being 'exhausted' in a swim in the ocean during a typhoon) listening to Battler sleep. But, although this is particularly bad fiction, it is fiction nonetheless.

So people who fall into the trap will hypothesize that 'she never really existed.' Even though that doesn't work. It's like saying Sherlock Holmes doesn't exist. He doesn't really. But within his little world of fiction as written by Sir Conan Doyle, he does.
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Old 2010-04-20, 05:16   Link #8496
Oliver
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Wait, why does this need a perfect disguise? People seem to assume that they're siblings, so they wouldn't take notice if the two looked similar. People used to confuse me with my brother all the time, even though he was more than a year younger than me.
It's not that they look similar, it's that their life in the mansion is not sufficiently private, and three years is a bloody long time not to slip.

If we're bringing up personal stories, people never confuse me with anyone else, including my brother, but they also prefer to not see me whenever possible. I used to walk through guarded checkpoints this way for years, but eventually when my friends started calling my phone while I was standing three meters away, I stopped doing that -- it was too depressing. In the most recent incident, I have received a credit card reissued in my name without actually showing any form of ID, which should normally get the bank teller a severe whack on the head. No, I'm not a TV personality. Can it be said that I don't exist? Then you're talking to someone in your own head.

I'm actually half-ready to describe the theory that would be the basis of a very long treatise in social anthropology, that is slowly simmering until I can write it out in such a manner that it cannot be dismissed. (Then it'll be my second PhD. Failing that, a book that actually brings in some money.) That theory would incidentally be very useful in making sense of Umineko, since as part of a greater whole it describes a mechanism by which a being such as a hypothetical Shkanontrice can emerge and what it can do, why and to what limits exactly `magic` may work, and many other pertinent things. The reason I got so interested in Umineko is that I'm always on the lookout for fiction that is aware of the concept -- scientific research tends to leave the issue to psychology, which studies it from a completely different standpoint.

Problem is, by now I'm pretty sure that Ryukishi07 is aware of the concept, but either does not agree with my positivist limitations on it, or has something completely different in mind as to how it works, which would make applying it pointless. Just bringing it up is a severe derailment of the discussion, since then you'd be arguing with it as it if's an Umineko explanation theory when it in fact isn't. Not to mention that I'm well aware that I have bitten more than I can chew.

Sorry, moving on.

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"Kanon" only existed for 3 years, was only on the island some of the time, and was ignored by everyone except Jessica. As far as we know, they were only on the island at the same time for a couple days each year at the most. This is definitely not impossible to pull off.
While I am thinking there was a statement in a Kanon/Shannon solitary dialogue that implies Kanon existed at least when Shannon was at Fukuin, it can obviously mean that Shannon invented him much earlier, so I guess that's not a counterargument. The issue here is that one of the two must be true: Either the disguise is perfect, or many of the people who treat Kanon as a separate individual when Battler can hear it must collude, and then only a cursory disguise will be sufficient.

Cases of mass collusion in Umineko are obviously not unknown, but in case of Kinzo they're motivated very clearly -- if you remember, earlier in the thread I've proposed two reasons that didn't even require Krauss to be destitute. I can't imagine why everyone who has to collude would be motivated to collude to pretend Kanon exists, yet. I've been looking for it as well, but so far I don't see it -- just numerous indications that Kanon never existed in the first place but no reason for, say, Gohda to say he exists -- or mention him in his letter for that matter. Being ready to accept the penchant to dress in boy's clothing and demands to be called by a different name, and still not ready to accept Shannon's minor mistakes in maid duties doesn't sound plausible.

Find a plausible motive supported in the text even by a single phrase, and Shkanon immediately becomes a much more viable entity.

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And who said anything about magic that can break the laws of physics? There's nothing supernatural about Shkanontrice (though the meta-world itself is clearly not normal). Just because someone believes that magic exists doesn't mean that it actually does.
That mostly refers to 'five master keys, one for each servant' as well as certain timing-location issues. I may obviously be wrong an they might not exist, but the biggest stumbling block is described above -- I see no motive for collusion.

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And furthermore, you say "the established rules of the red text" when there are none. The only rule of the red text is that the red text must be the truth. We have already seen in EP5 that it is a literal truth since "Kinzo" said in red can refer to either a living or dead person. The red means nothing more or less that what it says, and it never says that Shannon and Kanon must refer to separate human beings.
One word: Kinzotrice! If virtual characters can be declared dead in red text, Kinzotrice can also be true and you cannot disprove it for the same reason.

The rules of red text are not declared beyond 'red must be true', obviously, however, they are also naturally assumed to be 'red is otherwise not different from any normal speech'. Otherwise it cannot be used with other speech as it's context. I am saying that assuming that 'personalities can be declared dead in red' is fundamentally no different from assuming that 'numbers in red should be stated in base 13', though less immediately jarring. Both mess up the basic communication protocols.
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Old 2010-04-20, 05:29   Link #8497
goldenlove27
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To be honest I mean something more deeper than that. Like her overall existence On the game board. She is indeed a trap, (I bet she is rolling around laughing in her grave knowing how she raped everyone's minds ), but regarding how she was able to transcend the laws of the game, you can't help but think there is something special about her character.

Sorry for going off topic.
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Old 2010-04-20, 05:36   Link #8498
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
And furthermore, you say "the established rules of the red text" when there are none. The only rule of the red text is that the red text must be the truth. We have already seen in EP5 that it is a literal truth since "Kinzo" said in red can refer to either a living or dead person. The red means nothing more or less that what it says, and it never says that Shannon and Kanon must refer to separate human beings.
There are rules of the red text established in EP5 and 6.

- In EP5 we are shown that there are red text that despite not being qualified as such do end up spanning all episodes. No person would mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo by sight.

- In EP6 we are shown that the context of the red text, if it is given is absolutely essential to the functioning of the red. I acknowledge it.


It doesn't have to be an explicit rule. It is enough for Ryukishi to show it to us in a way that if we contradict these rules it would collapse the red and the entire game.
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Old 2010-04-20, 06:35   Link #8499
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Wait, why does this need a perfect disguise? People seem to assume that they're siblings, so they wouldn't take notice if the two looked similar. People used to confuse me with my brother all the time, even though he was more than a year younger than me. "Kanon" only existed for 3 years, was only on the island some of the time, and was ignored by everyone except Jessica (plus several servants, as well as Kinzo, probably knew about his secret). As far as we know, he and Shannon were only on the island at the same time for a couple days each year at the most. This is definitely not impossible to pull off:.

When did someone inside the story ever assumed that they are siblings? No one did as far I can remember. IIRC Battler was pretty surprised when he heard from George that Kanon was Shannon's younger brother until George corrected himself and explained it. That doesn't sound like they look like each other that much, does it?
Also when talking about personal experience... Every pair of siblings, twins included, that had different genders that I've met might have looked like each other a but they would certainly not be confused with each other.
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Old 2010-04-20, 09:05   Link #8500
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Originally Posted by siberius View Post
Ok that might be the true. But are there any scenes narrated by Erica in the real world of ep 5?



So basically the whole real world of ep 5 is useless??


There is some read that suggests that Erica exist:
Furudo Erika only increases it by one person

It was impossible to reach the second floor of the guesthouse without passing through the lounge, and impossible to reach it at all without Erika, who was in the lounge, knowing about it!

Erika was with Nanjo the whole time until 3:00 AM.


Ihihihi, dame da.

"Furudo Erika increases it by one person" doesn't necessarily have to mean that she's there. Just that the maximum number of people has increased and that Furudo Erika's CORPSE has washed up on Rokken Island.

The second two can be explained by positing Nanjo took Erika's corpse to the lounge to examine it!






And wait, are you assuming that Jessica DOESN'T know about Shkanon? Because that's ridiculous. And that's where I take issue with the entire concept of Shkanon, because by its existence, not only is Kanon's character ruined, Jessica's is too. Either she's the stupidest human being ever, she's crazy, she's trolling everyone, or she's a mastermind, collaborating with "Sayo". Honestly, I can't see any of those things in Jessica's character.
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