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Old 2010-04-20, 21:57   Link #8541
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I can't wait for her to reveal that everyone except Battler is Beatrice.
You know my theory.

Battler sins against Maria promising to play with her every year


Battler's sin causes everyone to simultaneously act as Maria's secret (Santa) Beatrice to cheer her up

Each Beatrice is involved in a different group and has a different motive

I can't imagine one person being able to teach Maria everything she knows about the occult. It's extremely plausible that it had to be a group effort.

Kyrie even admits all the women are suspects if you consider the Beatrice disguise.
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Old 2010-04-20, 22:02   Link #8542
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I can't wait for her to reveal that everyone except Battler is Beatrice.
You know, come to think of it, this'd be adding yet ANOTHER Christie novel into Umineko's mix.
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Old 2010-04-20, 22:04   Link #8543
Marion
The Great Dine
 
 
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Actually, shouldn't he have one already? Eva and Shannon are the only ones with that much exposed skin, so they're the only ones with the Eagle that we see, but shouldn't everyone in the family have a tattoo like that? I wouldn't put it past Kinzo to make them all engrave the OWE onto their bodies forever...
I don't see why because the two of them have tattoos mean that everyone has to. Eva clearly has the most devotion to the family - I can only see Natsuhi tattooing an eagle besides her, but she isn't allowed to wear one.

But yeah I see no reason why Eva has to have a tattoo. Interestingly enough, Evatrice doesn't have a tattoo on her arm even though she's suppose to look like a younger Eva. So my guess is that Eva probably put it on later in life.
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Old 2010-04-20, 22:06   Link #8544
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
You know, come to think of it, this'd be adding yet ANOTHER Christie novel into Umineko's mix.
I think it also might be close to Clue since it's a series and not a single book
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Old 2010-04-20, 22:07   Link #8545
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
You know, come to think of it, this'd be adding yet ANOTHER Christie novel into Umineko's mix.
Eh, why not? We've already got a bit of A Murder is Announced, right?
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Old 2010-04-20, 22:17   Link #8546
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I can't imagine one person being able to teach Maria everything she knows about the occult. It's extremely plausible that it had to be a group effort.
Unless it's Rosa who is somehow unaware, though, that would be a stretch.

The real problem with teaching Maria would be that you'd need a few weeks worth of raw time with her to get properly started. It's not possible to do that just during family conferences which are apparently timed to weekends with a single sleepover - there simply isn't enough of them.

Either Rosa is unaware that she's doing it herself, or someone else has or had access to Maria for an extended period. The latter can occur if Rosa shows up on the island not only during conferences, but also during Maria's school vacations - or at least, for the entire Golden Week.

I don't really think such an extended stay is very plausible seeing Rosa's memories of her siblings and the statements that Kinzo did not like Maria. (Though can we trust those? Kinzo would be the perfect teacher here. Kinzotrice!)

Come to think of it, there's one more thing that annoys me about Rosa. Rosa is the president of a company, but the rest of the family and her TIPS call it more of a hobby as her company is unprofitable. But she is not the borrower of her loan, but a co-signer, meaning that she bears the burden of paying it back because the borrower has defaulted on it. Which means that the loan isn't feeding her company.

What exactly is Rosa's source of income?
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Old 2010-04-20, 22:22   Link #8547
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
What exactly is Rosa's source of income?
Mutual funds, bonds, patents for designs, intellectual property. I could list all kinds of income other than earned income. The loan could even be to start a new company if you want to make her suspicious.

Quote:
But she is not the borrower of her loan, but a co-signer
Oh wow I just got an image of Rosa = Kaiji in my head lol. You think she'd get a loan from a yakuza group?
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Old 2010-04-20, 22:34   Link #8548
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Mutual funds, bonds, patents for designs, intellectual property. I could list all kinds of income other than earned income. The loan could even be to start a new company if you want to make her suspicious.
Much of it would be the property of the company she owns though, wouldn't it.

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Oh wow I just got an image of Rosa = Kaiji in my head lol. You think she'd get a loan from a yakuza group?
No, as far as I'm aware, that's how it legally works in Japan, or at least did until a few years ago - I remember seeing foreigners in Japan writing about this with a certain level of dread, as the social pressure incites people to do this for their coworkers. When you co-sign for someone else's loan, you vouch for their ability to repay it, but don't actually get anything for it. Should they be unable to, and declare bankruptcy or run away, you become just as liable as they are.
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Old 2010-04-20, 22:34   Link #8549
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I suspect Maria's father had Rosa use her family credit to secure a loan and then disappeared with the money.
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Old 2010-04-20, 22:38   Link #8550
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Much of it would be the property of the company she owns though, wouldn't it.
Not necessarily. Mutual funds don't anyway. And bonds could refer to just about anything.

And even if the asset is her property for other people use her designs or intellectual property she has to get a cut of the pie. She can get paid for owning something.
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Old 2010-04-20, 22:41   Link #8551
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I suspect Maria's father had Rosa use her family credit to secure a loan and then disappeared with the money.
Definitely something like that.

So, if the company is unprofitable, what exactly keeps it afloat and pays, in particular, Rosa's salary? Money has to come from somewhere, and while startup capital could have been donated by Kinzo, I expect the company would have been founded before Maria was born. If it were such a hobby all that time, the capital would probably run out.
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Old 2010-04-20, 22:46   Link #8552
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
She can get paid for owning something.
It's either Rosa being independently wealthy enough to feed the company, - and then why the loan is so problematic for her, how big did it have to be? - or the company being used to feed Rosa and her loan, and then it's not clear why it hasn't keeled over in nine years.
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Old 2010-04-20, 22:52   Link #8553
Judoh
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If Rosa is the cosigner the loan could be for anyone not just Rosa herself correct? And her husband is not the only possible candidate?

So couldn't she just have bad friends like Krauss?

I also don't see why her company being a hobby automatically means it's unsuccessful. Sure it's a joke to everyone on the island, but she should at least have a middle class income. Then all it comes down to is how responsible do you think she is.
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Old 2010-04-20, 22:57   Link #8554
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
If Rosa is the cosigner the loan could be for anyone not just Rosa herself correct? And her husband is not the only possible candidate?

So couldn't she just have bad friends like Krauss?
For anyone except Rosa herself, but an individual. Yes, she could.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I also don't see why her company being a hobby automatically means it's unsuccessful. Sure it's a joke to everyone on the island, but she should at least have a middle class income. Then all it comes down to is how responsible do you think she is.
That's a good question for which the textual evidence is not very conclusive - she seems to be on both ends of the spectrum at once.
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Old 2010-04-20, 23:03   Link #8555
Renall
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I don't understand why everyone seems to think Rosa had a "husband." Just because Battler thought she should have doesn't mean she did. The fact that he's not around, or spoken of, and that she hasn't changed her name (and it's never been mentioned he was moved to the register like Hideyoshi was), and the reaction Kinzo has to Maria, strongly suggests that Rosa was unmarried.
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Old 2010-04-20, 23:09   Link #8556
Marion
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I don't understand why everyone seems to think Rosa had a "husband." Just because Battler thought she should have doesn't mean she did. The fact that he's not around, or spoken of, and that she hasn't changed her name (and it's never been mentioned he was moved to the register like Hideyoshi was), and the reaction Kinzo has to Maria, strongly suggests that Rosa was unmarried.
Why would Battler say that Rosa's husband co-signed the loan in EP 6 during a fantasy scene if he wasn't sure of it. There doesn't seem to be much merit in doing something like that, since it doesn't help him or hurt him.

Besides, I can easily see Rosa being pressured to marry the man who got her pregnant. Rudolf probably got into a similar situation with Asumu, as Kyrie eluded to (then again, Kyrie is not too reliable when Asumu comes up)
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Old 2010-04-20, 23:13   Link #8557
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I don't understand why everyone seems to think Rosa had a "husband." Just because Battler thought she should have doesn't mean she did. The fact that he's not around, or spoken of, and that she hasn't changed her name (and it's never been mentioned he was moved to the register like Hideyoshi was), and the reaction Kinzo has to Maria, strongly suggests that Rosa was unmarried.
That's not the reason I think she had a husband. She said she was divorced in episode 4 didn't she? And when you divorce I think you return to having your maiden name anyway.
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Old 2010-04-21, 07:03   Link #8558
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In the US at least, divorced women keep their married names.
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Old 2010-04-21, 07:46   Link #8559
Jan-Poo
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in my country women keep their surnames even after being married. It's less of a hassle with all those divorces and remarriages...

but in Japan looks like it's exact opposite. Apparently you can change your surname as easy as changing your residence. For example Battler is said to have used her mother surname when he left home, which is something you'd definitely find it very odd in western countries. But Battler stopped being an Ushiromiya and then came back being an Ushiromiya in the span of 6 years or actually less. I think I've seen a similar scenario in some anime.

So the point here is that the fact that Maria is called "Maria Ushiromiya" given the japanese context can't be used as a proof that Rosa never married... because it's possible that Maria's surname was changed after Rosa divorced... And well it's also possible that Maria was born after the divorce. Anyway Rosa changing back to "Ushiromiya" wa a natural step.
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Old 2010-04-21, 08:33   Link #8560
Raiza Sunozaki
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How Maria learned so much about magic is something I can't quite iron out. I've thought it out a couple times, but the only satisfying answers involve assumptions.
I've got three theories: firstly, that "Beatrice" was teaching magic to Maria before Battler left the island six years ago. If she had the extra time, there might have been enough time to give her the complex knowledge of magic that Maria has. The problem with this is, that Maria was three back six years ago (unless Rosa's lying about her own daughter's age for some reason, and that Maria is a loli). Most kids have a hard time learning complex topics such as the magic circles at nine, let alone three. So Maria's either a super-genius, or she possesses some amazing condition where she consciously remembers everything told to her.
Secondly, that "Beatrice" was in contact with Maria during the rest of the year. I don't just mean on the rare occasion Rosa might visit Rokkenjima besides the family conference, I also mean when Maria was at home. It's shown when Battler calls Jessica to tell her that he's coming to the 1986 conference that the cousins keep in contact with each other over the phone and possibly snail mail as well, considering the time. And since Rosa was rarely ever home for extended periods of time, there would be plenty of time where Beatrice could talk over the phone or send mail (assuming the Ushiromiya fear of looking in closets carries over in Rosa's case to the mailbox), or even visit Maria. We know the servants had vacations (Shannon took a several days-long trip to Okinawa, I think), so if Beatrice knew Maria was alone at home often, it wouldn't be hard to visit her. The biggest problem with this is how it could continue so long without Rosa noticing. It also means Beatrice isn't bound to the island... which goes against what we are told.
Thirdly, that Maria had access to books and other media on magical theory. Once again, we know Rosa was hardly home. If she was, she'd probably find theorized books and destroy them in some fit of rage. With this, Beatice could go over basic magic theory during the conferences, and Maria could extend her learning by reading up on the topics during the rest of the year. The reason I can't quite accept this one is because of the time period. It's 1986. Internet won't be commercially available for two more years, so computer-based information is impossible, assuming Rosa has even bothered to get a computer. Knowledge on Western magic would be incredibly hard to find in Japan, and the only sensible was I can find out of this is that Beatrice smuggled some of Kinzo's books to Maria, who somehow managed to smuggle them into her room without Rosa noticing.
Well, that's all I've been able to come up with, I don't really like any of them, but it's the best I can come up with.
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