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Old 2010-04-22, 04:37   Link #8621
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
In Episode 2, when Battler, Rosa, and Maria are holed up in the parlor, Battler and Maria work on the epitaph, and she doesn't claim to have the solution.
That's not exactly a problem for anyone.

Of course she doesn't. She doesn't claim she doesn't know either. Besides It's a riddle. If you know the answer to a riddle or a cipher why would you claim to know the answer if you want people to figure it out? Duh!

It works the same way if Jessica or Shannon knew the answer.

Plus they were having such a happy conversation talking about it. Why would she want to interrupt that?
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Old 2010-04-22, 05:01   Link #8622
Kylon99
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Actually, I thought in EP2 Rosa knew the solution. Either she figured it out or as I suspect more likely now that she knew it since before she came to the island. So I wonder if she guided Maria to the gold anyways...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Well actually it was Dress Beatrice who threw a tantrum and burned Kinzo when Battler didn't remember his sin not Suit, but the change is kind of out of Battler's sight.
So that's why I'm guessing Long Dress is an amalgam of all the other Beatrices. The other individual Beatrices could pop up but the amalgam is destroyed. (I'm guessing the faction that tries to keep all of them together or is controlling them, etc., is also destroyed too now... the Beatrice Faction.)
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Old 2010-04-22, 06:09   Link #8623
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
EDIT: If Jessica is dress Beato that probably means she has a "Nobody sees me like a girl! I can be girly..!" complex...
She's a tsundere, that would be a perfectly natural one to have.
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Old 2010-04-22, 09:05   Link #8624
Raiza Sunozaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
By the way, Suit Beatrice was the one who wanted Battler to remember his sin. But maybe that particular sin didn't have to do with Long dress or Moetrice's love for Battler. For example if it was Battler running away from taking headship, it could've been a sin against Kinzo... or something.
This is something I thought up that was similar to what you said Kylon. It kinda has to do with how most of us (including myself) are somewhat hypocritical with the red truth. We're told that the red is the absolute truth, but we constantly stretch the boundaries of that truth to suit our means. For example, with the Episode 4 red truth on how Battler's sin has nothing to do with meta-Beato, I stretched it to say because whoever that Beatrice matched on the gameboard was not yet Beato when Battler committed his sin, it could still be a sin Battler committed towards her.
And this is where I've come to a different conclusion now. Suit Beato was the one who wanted Battler to remember his sin, but meta-Beato got very, very pissed off when Battler couldn't. Suit seemed to just get very depressed. If the Beato(s) that fell in love with Battler is someone who's love for him could be reciprocated (which, as we see from Chiru, it is) then there aren't many people who could fit that place. All the males are out, Maria is unlikely, same with Kumasawa, as well as the married women. The only women who remain are Jessica and Shannon, and to a much lesser extent, Rosa. I'm just going to use Jessica and Shannon.
In my opinion, dress/meta-Beato and Suit Beato represent Shannon and Jessica, respectively. Battler's sin was towards Jessica, but we already know he's an idiot and has completely forgotten it. Shannon is the one he's playing the game with, and she wanted him to remember the sin he commited against her closest friend.
From my spoiler memory of Episode 6, I seem to remember a part where a person (a Beato?) asks another person (another Beato?) to take all her feelings for Battler and become the person who can love him and he can love back. I've got a feeling Jessica had a childish crush on Battler when she was younger (from my memory, she seemed to tease him and push him around when she was younger, and since she's a tsundere, that's practically screaming "I love you"), but when Battler committed his sin towards her, she took it as a rejection, and poured all her feelings for him into Shannon.

On the topic of Maria and the gold, running with my favourite theory that Shannon is the dress/meta-Beato, I thought this. The reason Shannon is the dress/meta-Beato is because she's solved the Epitaph riddle before the conference begins. She may have had help from Kumasawa and others, but she's the one who found the gold. In other words, the next head is already decided before the conference begins. Shannon has no interest in becoming the head though. So in Episode 2, she gives Maria the answer to the Epitaph, because as Oliver said, she's honest and pure enough to share it equally among everyone.

Last edited by Raiza Sunozaki; 2010-04-22 at 09:20.
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Old 2010-04-22, 15:27   Link #8625
Oliver
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Ok, let me formulate the Episode 2 theory I proposed above in a more complete form. It is still not a complete theory nor The Answer, and naturally, multiple variants are possible, but the included ideas provide a good motivation for some of the bizarre things done in Ep2.

Spoiler for I should stop that habit of writing ultra-long posts.:


P.S.: Suit-Beatrice vs. Legend-Beatrice. FIGHT!
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Last edited by Oliver; 2010-04-22 at 15:40.
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Old 2010-04-22, 15:39   Link #8626
Kylon99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
This is something I thought up that was similar to what you said Kylon. It kinda has to do with how most of us (including myself) are somewhat hypocritical with the red truth. We're told that the red is the absolute truth, but we constantly stretch the boundaries of that truth to suit our means. For example, with the Episode 4 red truth on how Battler's sin has nothing to do with meta-Beato, I stretched it to say because whoever that Beatrice matched on the gameboard was not yet Beato when Battler committed his sin, it could still be a sin Battler committed towards her.
Very good point... even if I didn't have a little bit of faith in Ryukishi, I would suspect he's the type of author to just bluntly tell you later, "Look, I told it straight to your face, didn't I? You were the one who got yourself into trouble by trying to think around the red text..."

So, I reserve a little bit of thinking space to analyze Umineko as if the things in the game are exactly as it says; no twisting around.
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Old 2010-04-22, 16:03   Link #8627
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
So, I reserve a little bit of thinking space to analyze Umineko as if the things in the game are exactly as it says; no twisting around.
I very much suspect most of it is actually exactly this way. So far, the most commnlyy used misdirection principle seems to be 'you assumed something because it is always so, but it doesn't have to be' and second degree of same - 'you assumed I had to be lying somehow but I actually was explicitly truthful'

The most egregious example is what Meta-Beatrice does to Battler with the people count. First she directs him to think that the 19th person exists. Then, when he built up theories using that, she destroys the 19th person. So Battler starts formulating theories involving 18 people, thinking that 'no more than 18' means '18'. But it actually means '18 or less', exactly what she said, and when the time is right, Beatrice whacks him over the head with it and laughs.

Same about Natsuhi and the receipt in Ep1. We are meant to think that if Natsuhi tossed Kinzo's corpse out of the window of his study, as Eva accuses, she must be guilty of murdering him, but this is by no means necessarily so, and Ep5 eventually explains why she might have done this without being guilty at all.

I suspect the very same thing about the chapel lock (the statements in red about it are not sufficient to state that it works at all, not working fits everything else fine) and I expect much of the trickery relies not on bending the red, but on slipping through the cracks between common sense assumptions about how things work -- but not the common language assumptions about what the words mean.
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Old 2010-04-22, 16:35   Link #8628
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Yeah I also don't believe in twisting the red too much. I think the key is looking at what the red doesn't say, and also why are those particular truths brought to light. The more red is revealed, the easier it is to get to the truth, actually (though this is quite obvious also). Well, a little reading between the lines is required. For example, the very first murder, the shutter case. A very little red is given about the actual murder, making it difficult to choose from all the possible solutions.

More red is about the corpses. I really think there is a significance only half a face is destroyed from Krauss and Shannon. As some sharp-eyed fellow pointed out, when Lambdadelta told that the identities of all unidentified corpses are guaranteed, this might actually mean that the identities of everyone except the "identified" corpses, Krauss and Shannon (they are identified because only half of their faces are destroyed), are guaranteed. With this line of reasoning, it leads to the thought that either Krauss or Shannon (or both) is faking their death. I suspect Shannon the most. I don't like the idea either, but Shannon could have killed Kanon, dressed him in her clothes, and Shannon disguised herself as Kanon. Only Hideyoshi and Kanon (Shannon in disguise) really saw "Shannon's" corpse, and because they look quite alike, there's a good chance Hideyoshi mixed them up, while Shkanon would just keep pretending. Technically it isn't a body double trick, because it is really a different person lying dead in there, who happens to look like Shannon.

Stating Kanon as culprit looks too obvious to me, so I'm trying this line of reasoning for Episode 1. Then Shannon could continue the murders like Kanon would in a Kanon-culprit-theory. This only works if you can counter the red regarding Kanon's "death" in the boiler room by saying "he was already dead by that time, so no-one could have killed Kanon etc."

Oh, and I also like to use Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are not murderers for all episodes. It crops the possible killer list by a few (and especially effective in the later parts, when we know only a couple of people could technically be the killer). But it doesn't say any of them couldn't be an accomplice, possible staker, letter placer or magic circle painter. At least Nanjo is a definite suspect of giving false diagnosis, as he is always staked by Belphegor. Reading from Wikipedia, Sloth also has a meaning of "not using one's skills to their full potential". I'd say this is a sign of false diagnosis, in practice helping people to fake their deaths.
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Last edited by Bluemail; 2010-04-22 at 16:46. Reason: Adding important points!
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Old 2010-04-22, 17:11   Link #8629
SeagullCrazy
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Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
More red is about the corpses. I really think there is a significance only half a face is destroyed from Krauss and Shannon. As some sharp-eyed fellow pointed out, when Lambdadelta told that the identities of all unidentified corpses are guaranteed, this might actually mean that the identities of everyone except the "identified" corpses, Krauss and Shannon (they are identified because only half of their faces are destroyed), are guaranteed. With this line of reasoning, it leads to the thought that either Krauss or Shannon (or both) is faking their death.
One thing I want to mention. Here, Krauss has nearly the exact same wound he has in EP4, just on the other side of his head. If you're going to suspect Krauss here, then you have to suspect Krauss in EP4. But then what about the rest of the people in EP4 with that wound? Were they faking too? Natsuhi, Rudolf, Eva, Hideyoshi, Krauss, Shannon, Genji, Nanjo, and Jessica all faked their deaths in EP4, and were alive even after Battler inspected them?

It gets too ridiculous to set aside Battler's detective authority so often. Remember, as long as he doesn't see it, anything can happen. The only corpse in EP1's first twilight he doesn't see is Shannon's, so there isn't any real proof her head was damaged in the same way. There isn't any proof her head was even damaged. I could even say that there wasn't a corpse there at all, though that might be too much of a stretch. As long as Kanon and Hideyoshi say that a corpse was there, and everyone else believes them, then a corpse was there.

Oh, and for those people who wonder why Hideyoshi would lie about Shannon's corpse:
Hideyoshi knew George was going to propose to Shannon. He saw Shannon's "corpse" and didn't see a ring on her finger. In order to make his son happy, he lied and said she was wearing the ring.
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Old 2010-04-22, 17:40   Link #8630
Oliver
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Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
Hideyoshi knew George was going to propose to Shannon. He saw Shannon's "corpse" and didn't see a ring on her finger. In order to make his son happy, he lied and said she was wearing the ring.
There's one interesting minor bit about that. Who knew George is planning to propose to Shannon?
  • Shannon clearly suspected.
  • Jessica pretty much expected it, she's shipping them.
  • Hideyoshi, possibly, because without his support, or at least neutrality, George is screwed in any conflict with Eva, and his Ep1 words heard by Battler imply support was given.
  • ....Rudolf.

In the morning of at least some episodes, Rudolf overhears George practicing his proposal scene in the men's room, but says nothing pertinent and leaves.

I wonder, if anything changes because he knows.
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Old 2010-04-22, 17:53   Link #8631
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
Oh, and I also like to use Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are not murderers for all episodes. It crops the possible killer list by a few (and especially effective in the later parts, when we know only a couple of people could technically be the killer). But it doesn't say any of them couldn't be an accomplice, possible staker, letter placer or magic circle painter. At least Nanjo is a definite suspect of giving false diagnosis, as he is always staked by Belphegor. Reading from Wikipedia, Sloth also has a meaning of "not using one's skills to their full potential". I'd say this is a sign of false diagnosis, in practice helping people to fake their deaths.
Yeah I like that red too for the same reasons. You don't have to murder anyone to be the mastermind behind the murders though. So the Butler or the doctor did it is still a possibility even though it's cliche.

Actually Nanjo would be a perfect staker IMO, but I'm also suspicious of the stakes anyway.
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Old 2010-04-22, 17:56   Link #8632
SeagullCrazy
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
There's one interesting minor bit about that. Who knew George is planning to propose to Shannon?
Well, the Rudolf bit was interesting, but there aren't many scenes involving Rudolf and George after that, are there?

But that got me wondering: did we find out the results of George's proposal in EP5 and EP6? It may have been stated in EP6 and I missed it, but I'm pretty sure it was completely avoided in EP5.
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Old 2010-04-22, 17:58   Link #8633
Judoh
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I'm beginning to think that whatever was the content in Land of the golden witch wasn't about the characters. So it can't be about Erika or Shkanon. If what Ryukishi is saying means anything the content should be a group of reds and that's definitely not something Shkanon would be admitted with right now.

If that content IS in episode 5 (he didn't specifically say it was he said he couldn't say) It probably has to do with the letter in episode 5 and who was where when it was delivered. That's the only group of reds I haven't seen touched upon until episode 5 and it isn't really necessary content (he said it was venomous, but he also said the content wasn't really necessary). So that might be part of it.
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Old 2010-04-22, 18:00   Link #8634
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Okay, bits from a new Ryuukishi interview translated (the originals are from 2ch, so take everything with a grain of salt). More info whenever the complete interview turns up.

Spoiler for Ryuukishi interview:
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Old 2010-04-22, 18:04   Link #8635
Judoh
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Spoiler:
OO! It seems like I was spot on when I said the gold was best when it's sheathed until the end! This just confirms for me what I've been talking about all along.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-04-22 at 18:34.
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Old 2010-04-22, 18:12   Link #8636
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I haven't delved as deep into the series as a lot of people have, but is it possible that there are two Kanons rather than Shannon pretending to be him sometimes? People have been able to work around the double Battler thing for the fourth game after all. I can't think of any other character at the moment who has had such an impossible body double other than Episode 2's red-eyed Kanon. The fact that his design was slightly different, and his personality was waaay off...

What exactly are the arguments FOR Shkanon at the moment? I haven't read Episode 6, so...D:
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Old 2010-04-22, 18:16   Link #8637
Oliver
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Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
Well, the Rudolf bit was interesting, but there aren't many scenes involving Rudolf and George after that, are there?
There aren't many scenes involving Rudolf in any kind of active capacity at all, and whenever they're together, he readily lets Kyrie have the center stage if he can get away with it. I'm not even sure he ever narrates in first person, when even Nanjo does at least once.
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Old 2010-04-22, 18:20   Link #8638
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Tsuyi View Post
What exactly are the arguments FOR Shkanon at the moment? I haven't read Episode 6, so...D:
FOR Shkanon? Hmm...?

I think I can list them, but you don't need episode 6 to know what those arguments are.
  • perspective: The detective Battler never sees Shannon an Kanon together this started the whole idea that it was possible they were the same person. Erika also rarely narrates the story in episode 5. (arguably you could say the meta world narrates the story in Kinzo's study it doesn't seem to be from either Battler's or Erika's perspective)
  • Missing body: Kanon's body almost always goes missing while Shannon's doesn't. Either he never existed on Oct 4th in the first place and is the same person as somebody else or he dies early before Oct 4th in a duel with Shannon or somebody in some episodes (not all).
  • Furniture: Some furniture (stakes and Sakutarou) are perceived as imaginary people and don't exactly count as people, but they can exist on SOME people's mental game boards. Kanon can be an imaginary person.

tell me if I missed anything.
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Old 2010-04-22, 18:28   Link #8639
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(About Battler's escape)
This part will probably serve as a massive hint regarding the truth about Beatrice.

If you really understand how he was able to escape, it should be possible for you to solve all of the riddles from EP1 to EP4.
Especially after this last game, where we placed several hints that verged on answers, you should be able to explain the riddles of all the closed rooms up until now.
Ssol's explanation for how Battler escaped seemed the best to me. It really did explain how Kanon was able to get there easily.

However I wonder how we could apply that idea to other episodes? Any ideas? Battler's room is more of a sealed room than a closed room. And there is the whole meta world sealing thing.

I also wonder if he could be talking about the duct tape chain lock trick or not.
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Old 2010-04-22, 18:34   Link #8640
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Ssol's explanation for how Battler escaped seemed the best to me. It really did explain how Kanon was able to get there easily.

However I wonder how we could apply that idea to other episodes? Any ideas? Battler's room is more of a sealed room than a closed room. And there is the whole meta world sealing thing.

I also wonder if he could be talking about the duct tape chain lock trick or not.
What was Ssol's answer again... and about the duct tape? Too busy thinking about Kanon's character status...
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