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Old 2010-04-22, 18:39   Link #8641
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldenlove27 View Post
What was Ssol's answer again... and about the duct tape? Too busy thinking about Kanon's character status...
Uh... I don't know exactly the way he said it, but I can summarize it for you. I've asked a few people who have read episode 6 and they say it's possible.

Basically Erika freezed time to do the location check, then there was a bit of meta world stuff for a bit, Battler said to advance the game (unpause it). At some point Erika leaves her closed room and then Dlanor announced immediately after that the rooms were sealed. Basically if Kanon leaves in that small amount of time that the game was advanced. (in other words if he left the cousin's room at around the same time Erika left hers) He can escape the location check AND avoid being in a sealed room without having somebody else's name.

If anybody thinks I'm wrong with how I thought the solution worked please tell me. I might be completely wrong about how he said it.
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Old 2010-04-22, 18:58   Link #8642
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chronotrig translated that part and said it wasn't as simple as that.

However, the problem with the Battler escape issue is that it doesn't really answer ep1-4 by any means I can see that is actually possible. Whether Kanon dies or is Shannon or anything, it isn't actually an answer, so I think he's being somewhat roundabout here. It's a clue, nothing more. You'd still have to continue reasoning beyond simply explaining the escape.

EDIT: To be clear, the only mystery for the Logic Error resolution is why Kanon is available to rescue Battler. That's it. There are no other mysteries because everything else is completely possible, and Kanon's disappearance is easily resolved (personality suppression or death or actual, physical death both work).

For Kanon to be available to rescue Battler, he must either not be in the "all other persons" room and able to escape the other room, or he must not be in any of the three sealed rooms. Evasion of the location check and the manner in which it happens is essentially the sole issue.

How you get from that to solving ep1-4 I don't know. I mean, if you believe in a theory that dismantles the validity of the red, then you can start explaining ep1-4 with just about anyone's survival. I'm talking the more plausible concepts.
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Old 2010-04-22, 19:01   Link #8643
SeagullCrazy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Spoiler for Ryuukishi interview:
This goes along with the reasoning I posted a while back regarding EP1.

First, how Battler was able to escape:
For the chain to be set, there must be someone hiding on the inside.

Therefore, since the chain was set, someone was hiding on the inside.
The only way that is possible is for someone to fake their death at the first twilight.
Therefore, since the chain was set, someone faked their death and hid on the inside.
Using the reasoning I mentioned a few posts back, only Shannon could have faked her death.
Therefore, since the chain was set, someone was hiding on the inside, which could only be accomplished by faking their death, and the only one who could do that is Shannon.

And then the most important part of all:
If Shannon hid on the inside, and Kanon cut the chain from the outside then Kanon and Shannon are two separate people!

Even though I have this backed up with evidence, I'm sure people will find a way to argue against it. But if Ryukishi really said that, then it makes me more confident in this theory.
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Old 2010-04-22, 19:07   Link #8644
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Except in ep6, Battler's on the inside, and Kanon's on the outside, then they switch. Shannon is stated to be in the imperfectly sealed room. Shkanon isn't destroyed by that. Your theory of ep1 is plausible, but possible to evade by Shkanon die-hards.

EDIT: That said, you raise a very good thematic point. The chain-locked room is repeated twice in Chiru, referring back to the essential importance of the ep1 Second Twilight. If your theory is correct, then someone must be on the inside in all instances of the chain-locked room, else the chain cannot be properly set from inside. We know, faked or not, that a person was inside the ep5 sealed room (Natsuhi). We know a person was, if briefly, in the ep6 room (Kanon). Logically, then, should we conclude the ep1-ST killer was indeed still in the room when the chain was cut? If so, it does narrow the possibility of the hiding person being anyone but Shannon immensely, which would destroy Shkanon... but it's hardly proof.
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Old 2010-04-22, 19:16   Link #8645
SeagullCrazy
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Except in ep6, Battler's on the inside, and Kanon's on the outside, then they switch. Shannon is stated to be in the imperfectly sealed room. Shkanon isn't destroyed by that. Your theory of ep1 is plausible, but possible to evade by Shkanon die-hards.
True. I think this is one of those cat-box situations. I don't think Ryukishi was planning on allowing a 100% certain theory be made. Until we look inside the cat-box, or in this case have the answers be revealed, we won't know for certain who has the right theory. After all, wouldn't discussion be pointless if there was a theory that had evidence that both supported itself AND denied all other theories? Then there wouldn't be any point to the game anymore. So as long as he lets two theories exist at the same time, the discussion won't end until the answers are revealed.

EDIT: Unless Ryukishi is trying to get us to open the cat-box ourselves...
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Old 2010-04-22, 19:19   Link #8646
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
*ryukishi interview*
Sigh. This REALLY does sound like he's confirming Shkanon.

God, I bet the man thinks he's a GENIUS. Hate. Hate. So much hate.
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Old 2010-04-22, 19:20   Link #8647
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It's still a valid theme, I suppose. All three chain rooms occur immediately following a First Twilight (though in ep6, it isn't a "Second Twilight"). At this time, the life status of most of the individuals is known and their location is also known. For anyone to be capable of maneuvering, they need some kind of excuse (faked death in ep1, unreported location in ep5, location check dodge in ep6). They must essentially be "free from the red." Battler only asks for confirmation of things he's seeing; the person who is operating in the darkness outside the narration also avoids having their actions so constrained.

But because these events happen so early, the possible list of culprits repeatedly narrows in each case. In ep6 it is narrowed so tightly that we know with absolute certainty who was in the room (Battler, Erika, and Kanon), and when.
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Old 2010-04-22, 19:25   Link #8648
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Hey, I thought that was the whole point of showing us the two scenes in EP6:

- Battler trying to escape and not succeeding with things like a wire to reset the chain lock
- Kanon disappearing from a chain locked room.

If you solve this you can solve almost all of the individual closed room murders. At least the ones where Kanon is theorized to be roaming around stabbing people. 8)
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Old 2010-04-22, 19:27   Link #8649
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Sigh. This REALLY does sound like he's confirming Shkanon.

God, I bet the man thinks he's a GENIUS. Hate. Hate. So much hate.
Hmmm... I would tend to agree except for one thing. Most of 2ch knows about the Shkannon theory. Like the solution to the epitaph, he wouldn't keep dancing around the fact that they found the solution he'd just say, "It's 99% solved" or something.
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Old 2010-04-22, 19:27   Link #8650
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Seagull's theory only really makes sense though if you assume Battler and Erika believed the opposite of what we thought they did, and actually suspected Shkanon was true. In other words, he's trying to suggest that they thought Shannon was incapable of rescuing Battler (as Kanon or otherwise), and Beatrice was able to determine otherwise. The problem here is that Beatrice would still have to realize some way to extract Kanon from a sealed room. Like it or not, Shkanon dodges that one.
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Old 2010-04-22, 19:30   Link #8651
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Hmmm... I would tend to agree except for one thing. Most of 2ch knows about the Shkannon theory. Like the solution to the epitaph, he wouldn't keep dancing around the fact that they found the solution he'd just say, "It's 99% solved" or something.
Just because someone thought up "Shkanon" doesn't mean they've created a working theory. Unless you think up an explanation for why it works, it's nothing more than an interesting pattern.
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Old 2010-04-22, 19:35   Link #8652
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
However, the problem with the Battler escape issue is that it doesn't really answer ep1-4 by any means I can see that is actually possible. Whether Kanon dies or is Shannon or anything, it isn't actually an answer, so I think he's being somewhat roundabout here. It's a clue, nothing more. You'd still have to continue reasoning beyond simply explaining the escape.
Hold on there. He never said that it completely solved it. And I never said that either. All I'm saying is we can use and idea or theory about it to understand how it happened in the earlier episodes better. That's why I asked for ideas. How does it relate?

So do you think he's dodging the question by providing that clue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Sigh. This REALLY does sound like he's confirming Shkanon.

God, I bet the man thinks he's a GENIUS. Hate. Hate. So much hate.
Are you talking about the bit with Zepar and Furfur? Is what they say really that powerful?
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Old 2010-04-22, 19:37   Link #8653
SeagullCrazy
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Seagull's theory only really makes sense though if you assume Battler and Erika believed the opposite of what we thought they did, and actually suspected Shkanon was true. In other words, he's trying to suggest that they thought Shannon was incapable of rescuing Battler (as Kanon or otherwise), and Beatrice was able to determine otherwise. The problem here is that Beatrice would still have to realize some way to extract Kanon from a sealed room. Like it or not, Shkanon dodges that one.
Just so you know, I haven't really applied that theory to the other chained rooms yet. I was just focusing on that specific closed room as an attempt to disprove Shkanon.

Considering that I read EP6 with a translation that could have been much better, I don't think I even want to try and theorize about what the characters were thinking.
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Old 2010-04-22, 19:37   Link #8654
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Are you talking about the bit with Zepar and Furfur? Is what they say really that powerful?
Apparently pretty much everything they say has to do with Shkanon.
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Old 2010-04-22, 19:43   Link #8655
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Apparently pretty much everything they say has to do with Shkanon.
So basically all they ever do is make references to characters on the game board or something like that? That's a bit discouraging, but it also make me wonder why they're even "characters" if their personalities are so 2 dimensional.

For that to be true they'd have to truly be obsessed with that theory or that "same person idea". I wonder if Erika is not the only character "representing the fans".
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Old 2010-04-22, 19:46   Link #8656
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Zepar and Furfur represent the butterfly broach that came from EP 2. If you remember that broach was what Beatrice gave to Shannon so that she could gain love and become human. Shannon offered to Kanon and he seemed to reject it.

This time they both have half of the broach. When the broach pieces come together the two couples are teleported into some meta-world tea room different from the regular one, where Zepar and Furfur greet them. They say that only one couple can obtain true love, while the other is doomed to crumble and thus a test begins.

Although I have to reread the game to see where the 'words of importance' are with what they say, because the majority of it is basically ramblings about the power of love and how all mighty it is It got a bit annoying after a while.
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Old 2010-04-22, 19:49   Link #8657
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
They must essentially be "free from the red."
There's a bizarre idea I have floating around that may have some credence to it but would turn the story into a cute mystery-fantasy hybrid if it were true, and at the same time destroy much of the red.

Red speech is a magic spell. That's why only witches can use it, and being able to do so is proof of a certain degree of magical power. It binds the multiple possibilities of truth to conform to a spoken statement. So like many a spell in the magical traditions with spoken spells, when it refers to a person, it is not binding, unless the true name of a person is used in the statement.

Normally, in a modern culture, the notion of a secret name that is 'true', and is only told to closest friends and family is forgotten, and the names in the family register are the true ones. But in Umineko in particular, two characters are known to use pseudonyms.

That would be sort of elegant, if too much puzzles didn't revolve around those two.
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Old 2010-04-22, 19:53   Link #8658
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
This time they both have half of the broach. When the broach pieces come together the two couples are teleported into some meta-world tea room different from the regular one, where Zepar and Furfur greet them. They say that only one couple can obtain true love, while the other is doomed to crumble and thus a test begins.

Although I have to reread the game to see where the 'words of importance' are with what they say, because the majority of it is basically ramblings about the power of love and how all mighty it is It got a bit annoying after a while.
Umineko confirmed for the romance genre

I better look up the ten commandments for Romance novels. j/k

The power of love idea eh... god... that sounds so much like the corny "fighting fate" idea in Higurashi.

I wonder if he's trying to turn Umineko into Romeo and Juliet with this metaphor. I certainly hope not... Twilight absolutely failed with that premise and I'd have to think a mystery like Umineko would do no better.

EDIT: Oh I'm not comparing Umineko to twilight that's a bit unfair. I've never read it either, but I've read a literary analysis of it. The metaphors in that series of books is GOD AWFUL.
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Old 2010-04-22, 20:08   Link #8659
Kylon99
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All of a sudden.. I want an Umineko dating game. Or more to the point, a bishoujo/biobaasan/bimajou game. I can see there being routes for:

- Maria, Jessica, Shannon
- Eva, Natsuhi, Rosa, Kumasawa
- Beatrice, Virgilia, Lambdadelta, Bernkastel, Erika, Ange, Gaap
- why stop there? George and Kanon. Rudolf? Nanjo? Ronove? Ronoue? HEH

EDIT: How can I forget Kyrie? 8)
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Old 2010-04-22, 20:09   Link #8660
Marion
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Haha. Battler and Beatrice's romance in EP 6 becomes like Romeo and Juliet, only Romeo lives to become incredibly depressed for pretty much...well the entire game really and Juliet comes back as Juliet 2.0

But yeah, somehow I never want Ryukishi to focus more on the story than the mystery. Sorry, but Battler slowing turning into Kinzo with his love for Beatrice is creepy.
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