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Old 2010-04-23, 10:50   Link #8741
Kitsu
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Quote:
On the romance theme.
It is absolutely wrong to think a story is loveless if it doesn't entail an happy ending for the couple. The most beautiful love stories often do not end that way. Saying otherwise would be like claiming that "Romeo and Juliet" is loveless, or to make a more recent example: Titanic.
And what to say about Dante himself? He wrote poems to Beatrice, he even gave her a prominent role in his masterpiece, claiming in various instances his unconditional love. However Dante didn't even touch Beatrice, not in the real world, not in the fictional one.

I could make many other examples... but I would spoil too much. Anyway to reiterate: the love stories that touched me the most and are generally acclaimed by the public do not end with the couple living happily thereafter.
The problem I have with it isn't that there isn't gonna be a happy end. But...that in the end... what was Kanon? He was an artifical personality, a play act, (at least in Chrno's theory), even if Sayo believes that he was real in the end e was just her acting and make believe.
Would you see Romeo and Juliet still as a brilliant love story if Romeo lets just say was just Angelica playacting?
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And there's also the fact that George, even being a 23 years old young man, is still treated like a child for the most part, that makes me think that Eva could have still perceived herself as "small" when she used to play with Rosa.
I agree but one thing that took me off is that Eva-B described their relationship rather happily while if we trust Rosa to some degree Eva just mocked her. It was different than the protrayal of the relationship that we got before.
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Old 2010-04-23, 11:04   Link #8742
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
However she's dead
confirmed before that event.
Well, yes she is, however...
  • It does not necessarily mean she died right there and then, and could have done a lot of other interesting things -- the red only says she is dead now. As I mentioned previously, there is no certainty about whether the scene with Kinzo and Beatrice in 1967 happened before or after Rosa's story.
  • If personality/piece death rules are assumed, it may mean that the personality of Beatrice the Golden Witch artificially created by Kinzo in that body is dead, which doesn't stop her from being active now.

It's definitely nothing simple.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
And there's also the fact that George, even being a 23 years old young man, is still treated like a child for the most part, that makes me think that Eva could have still perceived herself as "small" when she used to play with Rosa.
But he is consistently referred to as an adult whenever it is convenient and definitely doesn't express any kind of dreams about an ocean of jelly, or toy cars for that matter.

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Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
Rosa might have lied (if she was in on the plot of creating the illusion of a witch) or remembered wrong (a lot) though.
My current best guess is that Rosa's truthful about this meeting actually having occurred in the past, but actually compresses her first and last meetings with Beatrice-2 into a single story. There was a lot more between those two.

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Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
But the murder of Rosa and Maria is difficult to explain with anyone but her, probably in the way you described.
There's actually two variants. One where Rosa strangles Maria and Eva kills Rosa. Another is where Maria kills Rosa by pushing her and Eva strangles Maria.

These are actually not identical because it means a different person getting called a witch by Eva a scene later.
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Old 2010-04-23, 11:16   Link #8743
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
However she's dead
confirmed before that event.
That could be where Rosa's (or Natsuhi's potentially) "good witch personality" died and where the "bad witch" was born.

I wouldn't put it past Ryukishi
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Old 2010-04-23, 11:24   Link #8744
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
My current best guess is that Rosa's truthful about this meeting actually having occurred in the past, but actually compresses her first and last meetings with Beatrice-2 into a single story. There was a lot more between those two.

There's actually two variants. One where Rosa strangles Maria and Eva kills Rosa. Another is where Maria kills Rosa by pushing her and Eva strangles Maria.

These are actually not identical because it means a different person getting called a witch by Eva a scene later.
Maybe Maria herself is Eva-Beatrice in that scene, the black witch takes over her. It's like killing Rosa over and over in Episode 4. Talking about oceans of jelly and cakes. Just like Maria I'd say. But someone still needs to be there to kill her.

Yeah I also don't think it's just a simple thing of finding Beatrice and taking her to the ocean just to see her fall to her death. They supposedly talked a lot as well, and Rosa's memory is hazy. She might have visited Beatrice-2 a couple of more times before she fell. If she can even find Kuwadorian a second time (solving the epitaph?). The thought about Rosa still living on Rokkenjima when Natsuhi came there sounds far-fetched, if Beatrice-2 was the servant Natsuhi pushed off the cliff. Rosa could have a trauma of seeing the servant dead though, and she somehow related it to her meetings with Beatrice before. It could have been a different person and/or way after that how Rosa tells it.
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Old 2010-04-23, 11:25   Link #8745
ameskitty
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The only story where I have seen a tragic and illusionary partner even remotely work out to a satisfying conclusion is a certain Final Fantasy, incidentally also one of my favorites (I won't say which because that would 100% completely spoil the ending, but if you've played this one you'll almost certainly know what I'm talking about).

It has to be something that ties in to the main plot and enables a good resolution to the conflicts presented. And I don't see multiple personality disorder (at least in the way most people are saying it) as a satisfying resolution, sorry. I'm not saying that it can't possibly be the resolution, but I'm saying that I'll be pretty disappointed if it is (unless it's a lot more well-written than I could imagine).

...meh, I almost want to provide my other thoughts about what Zepar and Furfur's rules are about now, but it's really vague. I was actually going to wait until people started making their "predictions" list for EP7 because it's not that detailed or entirely explanatory, but now I'm thinking about solidifying a bit and seeing if others can get it to work. Maybe I'll write down and organize my thoughts after exams are over in a few weeks - organic chemistry is kind of eating up my thought process :/.

(well, to give it in just a few words for now, it's the "factions" theory slightly extended and mostly based on the second twilights)
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Old 2010-04-23, 11:36   Link #8746
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
That could be where Rosa's (or Natsuhi's potentially) "good witch personality" died and where the "bad witch" was born.

I wouldn't put it past Ryukishi
You know, I really hate the "personalities can die" trick, that's on my top list of "bad tricks" followed closely by "names are not exclusive", unfortunately I agree that Ryukishi is capable of doing that, I just wish he didn't...

Anyway even bypassing the problem of her confirmed death, which was confirmed before the death of Maria and Rosa BTW, you still have the number limit problem.

Beatrice2 can't be Beato (Beatrice3) She'd be too old and that wouldn't match with all the hints we have about her, which strongly points to a young woman around 20 years old.

So you'd have to think that Beatrice2 is one of the existing persons in Rokkenjima. However Kyrie apart there's no one who could be her unless you are assuming a very improbable disguise. And disguises should be hinted as per knox rule.

Anyway as someone pointed out Kyrie being Beatrice2 is extremely unlikely for various reasons. In 1967 Kyrie should have been already one of Rudolf's women.
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Old 2010-04-23, 11:39   Link #8747
Judoh
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I think the personality thing is a ridiculous premise too, but it's fun to toy with. You can get away with everything because a bunch of people assume it's required for Shkanon to work.
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Old 2010-04-23, 12:04   Link #8748
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I think the personality thing is a ridiculous premise too, but it's fun to toy with. You can get away with everything because a bunch of people assume it's required for Shkanon to work.
Don't forget though that it only works for Shkanon because Kanon and Shannon were never individual people in the first place, and this has been strongly hinted every since "furniture cannot love because they do not make up a full person". Most people completely ignored those scenes or assumed that the -on servants had a pretty serious inferiority complex...which doesn't actually make sense. Shannon could easily have left the island at that time if she wanted, and then she wouldn't have to be furniture anymore.
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Old 2010-04-23, 12:09   Link #8749
Judoh
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Don't forget though that it only works for Shkanon because Kanon and Shannon were never individual people in the first place, and this has been strongly hinted every since "furniture cannot love because they do not make up a full person". Most people completely ignored those scenes or assumed that the -on servants had a pretty serious inferiority complex...which doesn't actually make sense. Shannon could easily have left the island at that time if she wanted, and then she wouldn't have to be furniture anymore.
That's nothing but your opinion.

Not everyone thinks that. It used to be that people compromised and said "well... they're the same person during the game, but there is nothing wrong with Kanon being a real person before october 4th." Now it's like "oh yeah there is so much evidence now. Screw you for thinking differently!"

You know it's just like how Battler says witches are allowed to exist before october 4th. Because it's not part of the game board?
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Old 2010-04-23, 12:10   Link #8750
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Anyway even bypassing the problem of her confirmed death, which was confirmed before the death of Maria and Rosa BTW, you still have the number limit problem.
If we discount the death of personality trick, none of those present can be Beatrice-2, except a potential double Rosa, that is. Notice that the red says '間違いなく死んでいる', 'machigai naku shin deiru' ("definitely dead is") without actually mentioning a name or even saying who is the one dead. Naturally, the body is 'on screen' at the time, so there's little wiggle room. There is a very short and subtle hint a double Rosa might exist, when Rosa's name, mentioned in red, is for an obscure reason in quotes. But that would indeed assume a double as per Knox, for which the hints are a bit too ephemeral and insufficient.

But still, this red and the Kinzo conversation scene do not preclude the possibility of Beatrice-2 dying much later than Rosa saw her die. Notice that Captain Kawabata reports ferrying goods to Kuwadorian up until 1968. Which means he has to have stopped something like a year after Beatrice-2 is supposed to have been dead, as Rosa initially agrees with Rudolf's estimate of 20 years and then, in the torture scene, explicitly says 19.

I suspect this is important somehow, though I can't claim I know how, yet.
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Old 2010-04-23, 12:13   Link #8751
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
That's nothing but your opinion.

Not everyone thinks that. It used to be that people compromised and said "well... they're the same person during the game, but there is nothing wrong with Kanon being a real person before october 4th." Now it's like "oh yeah there is so much evidence now. Screw you for thinking differently"

You know it's just like how Battler says witches are allowed to exist before october 4th. Because it's not part of the game board?
Wait, I'm making a logical argument here. You and Jan-poo were saying that the personality thing was ridiculous, and I proposed a way in which it wouldn't be ridiculous or cheap. Whether my argument is right or wrong, it shows that you can't oversimplify Shkanon too much. There are many Shkanon theories, so saying that "Shkanon violates this" or "Shkanon is messy or unfair because of this" means that you must be prepared to defend that statement against all possible Shkanon theories. Otherwise, you're just beating a straw man.
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Old 2010-04-23, 12:18   Link #8752
Judoh
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Wait, I'm making a logical argument here. You and Jan-poo were saying that the personality thing was ridiculous, and I proposed a way in which it wouldn't be ridiculous or cheap. Whether my argument is right or wrong, it shows that you can't oversimplify Shkanon too much. There are many Shkanon theories, so saying that "Shkanon violates this" or "Shkanon is messy or unfair because of this" means that you must be prepared to defend that statement against all possible Shkanon theories. Otherwise, you're just beating a straw man.
You didn't mention personalities. It sounded more like your were insinuating Kanon and Shannon are perpetually the same person in all scenes, which I think you thought anyway. All you need for that is to have Shannon disguising as Kanon in every scene where he's not with Shannon. In that case the theory that I proposed before that Kanon is a disguise that gets exposed when he is proclaimed dead is more logical.

But I would rather Kanon at least be a person before October 4th or there is no reason for a disguise or for Jessica to even notice him. Give him some dignity at least.

EDIT: Oh and by "ridiculous premise" I don't mean I hate the idea of personality death. Despite it's ridiculous premise it's useful in some ways and it's fun to play with. It's twisted logic, but you expect that in a game that uses twisted logic.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-04-23 at 12:33.
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Old 2010-04-23, 12:25   Link #8753
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
If we discount the death of personality trick, none of those present can be Beatrice-2, except a potential double Rosa, that is. Notice that the red says '間違いなく死んでいる', 'machigai naku shin deiru' ("definitely dead is") without actually mentioning a name or even saying who is the one dead. Naturally, the body is 'on screen' at the time, so there's little wiggle room. There is a very short and subtle hint a double Rosa might exist, when Rosa's name, mentioned in red, is for an obscure reason in quotes. But that would indeed assume a double as per Knox, for which the hints are a bit too ephemeral and insufficient.
With this argument you could state that none of Battler's "I acknowledge it" red truth has any meaning. Context has to be relevant, else my trust in Ryukishi would be totally shattered.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
But still, this red and the Kinzo conversation scene do not preclude the possibility of Beatrice-2 dying much later than Rosa saw her die. Notice that Captain Kawabata reports ferrying goods to Kuwadorian up until 1968. Which means he has to have stopped something like a year after Beatrice-2 is supposed to have been dead, as Rosa initially agrees with Rudolf's estimate of 20 years and then, in the torture scene, explicitly says 19.

I suspect this is important somehow, though I can't claim I know how, yet.
It would be very unrealistic if Kawabata remembered the exact date after 29 years. He does say about 30 years, which clearly shows he's not telling a precise time. Same with Rudolf, and Rosa also makes very clear that she doesn't remember the precise date. I see nothing strange.
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Old 2010-04-23, 12:32   Link #8754
Oliver
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It would be very unrealistic if Kawabata remembered the exact date after 29 years. He does say about 30 years, which clearly shows he's not telling a precise time. Same with Rudolf, and Rosa also makes very clear that she doesn't remember the precise date. I see nothing strange.
Even then, both the boundaries of the time span in which those three events had to have occurred (Rosa's last meeting with Beatrice-2, termination of Kuwadorian supply, Beatrice-2's conversation with Kinzo) remain floating widely enough that we cannot conclude with certainty that they have occurred in the expected order, or that Beatrice-2 hasn't died yesterday.
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Old 2010-04-23, 12:37   Link #8755
Judoh
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All this Beatrice 1 Beatrice 2 stuff sounds like prototypes for a big project doesn't it? If we look at another way we could say Beatrice is a device of some sort. When computers or engines wear out they technically die right? Same thing.
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Old 2010-04-23, 12:43   Link #8756
Bluemail
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
All this Beatrice 1 Beatrice 2 stuff sounds like prototypes for a big project doesn't it? If we look at another way we could say Beatrice is a device of some sort. When computers or engines wear out they technically die right? Same thing.
Beatrice 2 was called a homunculus right? Maybe she was a cyborg too

In EP5 I thought Shkanon was denied because they were both present in the room with Battler and Erika when accusing Natsuhi. But guess it can't be trusted because Battler wasn't the detective anymore and Erika was fighting with Beatrice in Kinzo's study
I think either of them could disguise as the other, but I really hope Kanon is really a different person from Shannon. At least was. And I don't like "killing personalities". It just seems so fishy.

If the ending is well-written and explained, I won't complain though.
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Old 2010-04-23, 12:57   Link #8757
Judoh
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Beatrice 2 was called a homunculus right? Maybe she was a cyborg too
A Kikokugai reference maybe?


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I think either of them could disguise as the other, but I really hope Kanon is really a different person from Shannon. At least was. And I don't like "killing personalities". It just seems so fishy.
I'm still skeptical that Shannon and Kanon can disguise as each other. I don't care what anyone says about perspectives. I have seen no evidence that anyone thinks Shannon and Kanon look alike. The only time I have ever seen their appearances compared is in episode 2. And that is when Suit Beatrice is talking.

Here is the exact quote:

Suit Beatrice: So it is Shannon this time, How nostalgic...Hoh. The color of your face looks quite well doesn't it? Different from Kanon. Almost beyond recognition.

Shannon:..."Thank you very much"

The only reasons I dislike Shkanon is because I care for the characters. I'm fine with having less suspects, but I like both Shannon and Kanon. So I'd rather let go of a new character like Erika than get rid of Kanon. I also have seen no hints of anyone beleiving they could disguise as each other. Beatrice has tons of hints. People in the game would suspect that any of the women could be Beatrice, but there are no such hints that anyone believes such a thing for the servants disguising as each other.
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Old 2010-04-23, 13:07   Link #8758
chronotrig
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Okay, someone posted the full interview. It's very long, so not very likely to be a fake (it would have taken several hours to write up the whole thing, but only a few seconds to be proved wrong). Still, best not to take anything too seriously. Even so, there are a couple of interesting points that haven't been mentioned yet:

Spoiler for Interview:
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Old 2010-04-23, 13:10   Link #8759
SeagullCrazy
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I also have seen no hints of anyone beleiving they could disguise as each other. Beatrice has tons of hints. People in the game would suspect that any of the women could be Beatrice, but there are no such hints that anyone believes such a thing for the servants disguising as each other.
Exactly. Shkanon is just like a Devil's Proof. You can't prove it doesn't exist, so that means it must exist? That's wrong.

When I think of Knox's 10th, I think of clues supporting the disguise, not a lack of clues denying disguises. If we are given a fair mystery to solve, then Shkanon makes no sense.
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Old 2010-04-23, 13:10   Link #8760
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I can't find many hints either than that the sprites' faces look a bit alike, and Battler never sees both of them at the same time. And I don't like the disguising thing either, I've just used it in my Episode 1 theory so I could take suspicion off Kanon. Because he is the most suspicious with his body missing or not seen by Battler quite often. So I kinda switched their places with the disguise theory. In other Episodes I don't find a reason to use that.

And have we given the necessary hints so people could actually disguise as Beatrice? Or do they just appear before others as themselves and get them to believe in it? At least Maria is with all the children when they're not wearing disguise, and never calls them Beatrice, so disguise would be probable by this factor. Would the Beatrice really always disguise when she meets with Maria every year?

Actually there's two points in Episode 1 where Maria tells that Beatrice is present where they are. When Battler is talking to the servants after First twilight, and in Kinzo's study when the extra letter is found. Of the people present at those times I'd suspect Kumasawa as predecessor Beatrice, Kanon or Jessica. George is good with children, so he is also a suspect for being the Beatrice for Maria.

EDIT: Ohh, seems like bomb theory is confirmed in Episode 6. Well guess we don't know if it is about a time bomb or the boiler.
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Last edited by Bluemail; 2010-04-23 at 13:14. Reason: Rokkenjima Explosion Accident
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