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Old 2010-04-23, 13:14   Link #8761
chronotrig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
Exactly. Shkanon is just like a Devil's Proof. You can't prove it doesn't exist, so that means it must exist? That's wrong.

When I think of Knox's 10th, I think of clues supporting the disguise, not a lack of clues denying disguises. If we are given a fair mystery to solve, then Shkanon makes no sense.
I have already shown several potential clues for that being a disguise in my theory. Your statement is inaccurate.
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Old 2010-04-23, 13:15   Link #8762
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Okay, someone posted the full interview. It's very long, so not very likely to be a fake (it would have taken several hours to write up the whole thing, but only a few seconds to be proved wrong). Still, best not to take anything too seriously. Even so, there are a couple of interesting points that haven't been mentioned yet:
Isn't this completely different from the last interview?
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Old 2010-04-23, 13:17   Link #8763
Judoh
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
I have already shown several potential clues for that being a disguise in my theory. Your statement is inaccurate.
All of your "potential clues" for a disguise that I've read are all from episode 4 In 1998. None of them come from episode 1 and 2 where Shkanon was originally suspected in. And none of them are the same kind of suspicions we have for the Beatrice disguise.

Can you find clues in 1986 please? Stuff that doesn't involve the Fukuin house being some sort of acting school? That's a huge leap.
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Old 2010-04-23, 13:18   Link #8764
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Isn't this completely different from the last interview?
I think I've said that I'm only posting parts of it. All told, I've only shown less than half (and I saw no point in re-posting what I already had). The rest of the interview isn't so groundbreaking.


As for Shkanon, if you go back and look at my posts, you'll see plenty. If you reread the first 4 games again, some of them will be plainly obvious when you keep EP6 in mind. It's not just clues that Shannon is disguised as Kanon, there's also clues that they were both the same person from the beginning.
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Old 2010-04-23, 13:27   Link #8765
SeagullCrazy
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
I have already shown several potential clues for that being a disguise in my theory. Your statement is inaccurate.
I was referring to the "Battler never sees them both at the same time, therefore they are the same person" part.

Most of your theory comes from the beginning of EP2 and the Ange scenes of EP4, right? Those scenes can be explained without using Shkanon.

For example, what if Shannon and Beatrice were the same person, and Kanon knew about it? There are definitely clues that Shannon is Beatrice (the promise, etc).
The butterfly brooch represents the "love" that Shannon learned, and she wanted to share that with Kanon. But he didn't believe in the power of love, so he rejected it.

And I've already talked about how the chained closed room can work without Shkanon. In fact, if it's right then Shkanon is denied, because Shannon and Kanon (er, Sayo) can't be inside and outside of the room at the same time.
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Old 2010-04-23, 13:37   Link #8766
Kaisos Erranon
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Actually, let's examine this interview a little. Trying to figure out what Ryu07 is saying at any given time is probably an exercise in futility, but...
Spoiler for extremely negative comments ahoy!:
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Old 2010-04-23, 13:42   Link #8767
Judoh
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You know, this is one thing in particular that REALLY disappoints me. If this interview confirms anything, it's that Battler's sin has to do with Shannon, and even though that's been obvious for a while, it's disappointing BECAUSE it's been so obvious for a while.

If you're writing a mystery but are pretty much incapable of surprising people... you've failed. You've failed miserably.

If his sin had to do with another character entirely, then, well... that'd be unexpected and interesting, and would have to rely on subtle clues rather than HITTING US IN THE HEAD OVER AND OVER WITH THE ANSWER FOR FOUR ENTIRE EPISODES.
Well he said that quick readers would get it in episode 4. There is not much of Shannon in episode 4, but there is a lot of Maria and Ange in episode 4. So I was thinking of the sin against Maria thing instead. If he was saying that all the hints have to point to Shannon than there would be no point to it. And he just said he was trying to make a gap for the people who don't have an answer and those that do so he's definitely not writing it all for Shannon.

I think your making a fuss over nothing.
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Old 2010-04-23, 13:45   Link #8768
chronotrig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
I was referring to the "Battler never sees them both at the same time, therefore they are the same person" part.

Most of your theory comes from the beginning of EP2 and the Ange scenes of EP4, right? Those scenes can be explained without using Shkanon.

For example, what if Shannon and Beatrice were the same person, and Kanon knew about it? There are definitely clues that Shannon is Beatrice (the promise, etc).
The butterfly brooch represents the "love" that Shannon learned, and she wanted to share that with Kanon. But he didn't believe in the power of love, so he rejected it.

And I've already talked about how the chained closed room can work without Shkanon. In fact, if it's right then Shkanon is denied, because Shannon and Kanon can't be inside and outside of the room at the same time.
Wait, so nothing can count as a hint unless it gives absolute proof of the thing it's hinting towards? At the very least, I hope you see that, in retrospect, Shkanontrice is probably the easiest way to explain the opening of EP2, and that it makes more sense in that part than any theory I've seen so far (and gives a good reason for all of the individual scenes, instead of calling them "general foreshadowing").

Why was Shannon so reluctant to fall in love with George? Why did Kanon feel obligated to not fall in love with Jessica until the last scenes? Why did they both consider themselves to be subhuman for most of the time? Why did both Shannon and Kanon see an invisible Beatrice floating around someone? Why is Kanon's entrance described as "absolutely silent" both here and even more ridiculously in EP3? Is it really a coincidence that no one sees the two of them together in the entire opening, and that Kanon appears in front of Shannon whenever she's mulling something over inside her head? Why did Shannon feel the need to smash the mirror? Why did she even think that a witch would be able to help her in the first place?

Shkanontrice can be used to give answers to all of these things, and it's very hard to do it with different theory.

@Kaisos Erranon:
If you really feel that way, I don't see why you want to spend your time complaining about it here.
Believe it or not, there are people with other opinions than yours.
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Old 2010-04-23, 13:49   Link #8769
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
If he was saying that all the hints have to point to Shannon than there would be no point to it.
Exactly.

He's said that "Ep6 gives a nearly definitive answer"... again, as I understand it, there's basically nothing going on in Ep6 but the love trials and Batter being the Kinzo, and constant Shkanon spoonfeeding.

If it had anything to do with Maria, I'd think we'd get a little more focus on her...

Also, he's saying Ep4 because that's about the time when that scene with Shannon on the beach got put into context, and when the whole pony theory thing first started to gain in strength and popularity.

And yes, I am aware that I'm overreacting a little.
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Old 2010-04-23, 13:50   Link #8770
Jan-Poo
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Wow, Ryuukishi made a MMORPG comparison to explain the situation! This guy must actually playing (or have played) one of them to understand what it means


Quote:
Ryuukishi: I think so. I think there are many people who have found the 'key' that leads to the truth.
This isn't really a good point in favor of the "troll" theory, is it?
Nothing suggests it from his interview, and he keeps telling that more and more people are getting to the truth. And no, Erika can't have anything to do with the "truth" he's speaking off.

that's all that I was looking forward to:

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=1411

Quote:
But before that I hope to see an interview by Ryukishi. If he'll say that at this point everyone has pretty much understood what's going on, that will be a good point in favor of the shkannontrice theory. However if he'll say that EP7 will be a huge surprise rather than a confirmation, that will be a point in favor of the troll theory.

lastly

Quote:
Ryuukishi: That may have been the first time the word appeared, but the epilogue of EP1 did say that "the jaw was the only part of Maria's corpse that could be found". Furthermore, in EP4, it was shown that Ange's boat was unable to dock at the mansion's harbor and that the remains of the mansion were missing, so it should be possible to link that with "something happened that changed the terrain". So, the words "Rokkenjima Explosion accident" are not a hint, but one of the answers. To go even further, one could say that all things that appeared after EP5 are not hints, but part of the answer.
Ryukishi... you made my day XD
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Old 2010-04-23, 13:52   Link #8771
Bluemail
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
And I've already talked about how the chained closed room can work without Shkanon. In fact, if it's right then Shkanon is denied, because Shannon and Kanon (er, Sayo) can't be inside and outside of the room at the same time.
My interpretation of the chained closed rooms is based on the premise of the boiler room door leading to the courtyard not being locked, as said by Genji in Episode 1. It doesn't need Shannon or Kanon as a culprit (well this is the episode which culprit is different than in the others). This has Genji as an accomplice but I think it can be told by someone else painting magic circles too.

Spoiler for EP3 First twilight:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Well he said that quick readers would get it in episode 4. There is not much of Shannon in episode 4, but there is a lot of Maria and Ange in episode 4. So I was thinking of the sin against Maria thing instead. If he was saying that all the hints have to point to Shannon than there would be no point to it. And he just said he was trying to make a gap for the people who don't have an answer and those that do so he's definitely not writing it all for Shannon.
I'd like to hear a story where the sin is about Maria, she is quite a central character anyway. But I'm falling towards Shannon or Jessica for some reason, can't really think of any real evidence (well "I'll come for you on a white horse" ).
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Old 2010-04-23, 13:53   Link #8772
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
If you really feel that way, I don't see why you want to spend your time complaining about it here.
I put my comments in a spoiler box with a warning that I would be complaining. You could have ignored the post if you didn't want to read it. Just saying.

And I'm bitching here because I feel as though the author has betrayed that Trust he keeps talking about by presenting an implausible and unsolvable story. Understandably, I'm a little upset.

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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Believe it or not, there are people with other opinions than yours.
Pot calling the metaphorical kettle black, much?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
And no, Erika can't have anything to do with the "truth" he's speaking off.
The Erika-doesn't-exist bit only explains the final red, not the closed room mystery, which is what he's talking about in this interview.

That has nothing to do with Erika existing or not.
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Old 2010-04-23, 13:57   Link #8773
Jan-Poo
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So we agree that ghosterika is certainly not what he's talking about, while the shkanontrice theory is quite plausibly something that he might be referring to.
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Old 2010-04-23, 13:58   Link #8774
Judoh
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Why was Shannon so reluctant to fall in love with George?
Shannon was NOT reluctant to fall in love with George. Before that intro she didn't even notice he was a member of the opposite sex. And Jessica pointed out that friends that don't even notice that are often the best couples. Battler repeated this in episode 5 as well. Eva did put pressure on her, and she is a maid for the family also and there was a marriage meeting going on at the time. So to her it would be HIGHLY INAPPROPRIATE.

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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Why did Kanon feel obligated to not fall in love with Jessica until the last scenes
They're related

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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Why did they both consider themselves to be subhuman for most of the time?
As for the subhuman thing I have suggested a reason for that too. Racism. That can easily explain why Kanon thinks he has no soul and why he's not human. But there is nothing wrong with him thinking that way.

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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Why did both Shannon and Kanon see an invisible Beatrice floating around someone?
As for the Beatrice thing Battler explained why Beatrice can float around before October 4th

Quote:
I can't deny the existence of the Beatrice in this place. The number of people on this island outside the game board... in other words, before October 4 1986, has not been proclaimed in red. Therefore, there's nothing strange about Beatrice existing here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Why is Kanon's entrance described as "absolutely silent" both here and even more ridiculously in EP3?
Genji is also described like that in episode 3. Shannon is the only one they say is not trained to walk that way. So What's your point?
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Old 2010-04-23, 13:58   Link #8775
LyricalAura
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Forgive me if I've misunderstood, chrono, but this Fukuin House == acting school thing... That's sort of a keystone of your theory, isn't it? What's your basis for it? Knox 8, solutions using clues that have not been presented are forbidden.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo
So we agree that ghosterika is certainly not what he's talking about, while the shkanontrice theory is quite plausibly something that he might be referring to.
So is Kanonzo, though, and that is something that hardly anybody's taken back and applied to the first four episodes.
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Old 2010-04-23, 13:58   Link #8776
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
So we agree that ghosterika is certainly not what he's talking about, while the shkanontrice theory is quite plausibly something that he might be referring to.
At this point, yes, he's definitely talking about that. Which makes Umineko possibly the worst mystery I've ever read.

I'm not trying to troll here by saying this. It's my honest opinion.

See, the thing about Shkanontrice is that while it makes a lot of sense within the context of the game, it relies on a version of DID that has nothing to do with how it actually works. Furthermore, DID in general is one of those mental disorders, along with amnesia, that automatically has a huge negative impact on the quality of the work it's present in. I would go so far as to say that any story that relies heavily on DID or amnesia or anything of that kind and is presented in a way that shows that no research on the disorder whatsoever was done is always terrible.

This, in addition to Umineko's magic/fake scenes (the only purpose of which is to confuse the reader and obfuscate mysteries that would probably be otherwise relatively simple in construction), several types of pointless colored text (did we really NEED blue? Or gold, whatever it is?), pretentious rewriting of the Knox rules (how clever), and above all characters that continue to show up but don't do anything other than bloat the story needlessly (what was the point of Gaap in the first place!?) make Umineko both incredibly hard to read and very poorly exectued.

And yet I still hold a little shred of hope in my heart that it will all turn out for the best, which is why I'm still here. -_-
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Old 2010-04-23, 14:05   Link #8777
SeagullCrazy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Shkanontrice can be used to give answers to all of these things, and it's very hard to do it with different theory.
Not really. There have been a ton of counter-theories posted here before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig
Why was Shannon so reluctant to fall in love with George? Why did Kanon feel obligated to not fall in love with Jessica until the last scenes? Why did they both consider themselves to be subhuman for most of the time?
Author Theory. The author of the stories has put more "love" in each successive game. Just compare EP1 Kanon to EP6, he's completely different. This can be explained by the author learning more about each character after each game, and developing personalities accordingly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig
Why did both Shannon and Kanon see an invisible Beatrice floating around someone?
Kanon knows Shannon is Beatrice. Both of them can see an invisible Beatrice that way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig
Why is Kanon's entrance described as "absolutely silent" both here and even more ridiculously in EP3?
Is there a problem with silently entering a room? Is that even a mystery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig
Is it really a coincidence that no one sees the two of them together in the entire opening, and that Kanon appears in front of Shannon whenever she's mulling something over inside her head?
Author theory, sort of. If you're Ryukishi, and you wanted to troll your fans, you would leave open more than one possibility, right? Leaving open more interpretations makes the mystery last longer.
Quote:
Why did Shannon feel the need to smash the mirror? Why did she even think that a witch would be able to help her in the first place?
If Shannon is Beatrice, then she would want to create the Illusion of the Witch, right? It makes no sense for a witch to start casting spells if a mirror that blocks magic is on the island. So she destroyed it to keep up the illusion.
Maybe Shannon was Beatrice from the start. Kinzo forced her to be Beatrice under his experiments. While this may coincide with Shkanon a bit, there is no reason for Kanon to be Beatrice too.


Shkanon isn't confirmed. I think it's just a huge trap in the end.
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Old 2010-04-23, 14:07   Link #8778
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
See, the thing about Shkanontrice is that while it makes a lot of sense within the context of the game, it relies on a version of DID that has nothing to dow with how it actually works. Furthermore, DID in general is one of those mental disorders, along with amnesia, that automatically has a huge negative impact on the quality of the work it's present in. I would go so far as to say that any story that relies heavily on DID or amnesia or anything of that kind and is presented in a way that shows that no research on the disorder whatsoever was done is always terrible.
To be completely fair to chrono's theory, as I understand it, he's not actually suggesting that Sayo has DID. He's saying that she's deliberately playacting in two or three different roles, and that they only appear to be DID because the illusion scenes have presented those roles as separate people.
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Old 2010-04-23, 14:08   Link #8779
SeagullCrazy
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Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
My interpretation of the chained closed rooms is based on the premise of the boiler room door leading to the courtyard not being locked, as said by Genji in Episode 1. It doesn't need Shannon or Kanon as a culprit (well this is the episode which culprit is different than in the others). This has Genji as an accomplice but I think it can be told by someone else painting magic circles too.
Ah, sorry, it must have been the way I worded it. I meant the chain-locked rooms from EP1, EP5, and EP6.

But that's another good point. EP3's first twilight kills off both Shannon and Kanon right at the start. Yet we see their ghosts at the very end. Shkanon can't explain that, because if both Kanon and Shannon are confirmed dead in red (which they are) then Sayo can't be alive at all. So what do ghost-Kanon and revived-Shannon represent?
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Old 2010-04-23, 14:10   Link #8780
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
To be completely fair to chrono's theory, as I understand it, he's not actually suggesting that Sayo has DID. He's saying that she's deliberately playacting in two or three different roles, and that they only appear to be DID because the illusion scenes have presented those roles as separate people.
But he's also said that Sayo has "created" these personalities inside her head, and the way in which these roles interact and have their own goals, etc, sounds exactly like how many fictional stories (incorrectly) present DID.

Either way, it's still not a very good twist to this story, in my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
But that's another good point. EP3's first twilight kills off both Shannon and Kanon right at the start. Yet we see their ghosts at the very end. Shkanon can't explain that, because if both Kanon and Shannon are confirmed dead in red (which they are) then Sayo can't be alive at all. So what do ghost-Kanon and revived-Shannon represent?
Shannon and Kanon are dead, but both the original 'Sayo' personality and the "Beatrice" personality are still alive, is how the theory goes.
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