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Old 2010-04-23, 16:42   Link #8841
SeagullCrazy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
People will get around that by claiming you can mistake Shannon for Kanon though. It's very one sided.

I don't see why you would mistake one over the other though.
The red "They definitely would not mistake any different person for Kanon!" was related to his appearance in the servant's room in EP2.

So "they" refers to "the people in the servant's room" right?
They = Gohda, Nanjo, Kumasawa, Genji, Shannon

Gohda, Nanjo, Kumasawa, and Genji would not mistake Shannon for Kanon. So Shannon cannot be Kanon, because Shkanon requires that they are mistaken.
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Old 2010-04-23, 16:42   Link #8842
ameskitty
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The exact wording of that red text literally means that in looking at a different person they wouldn't think that it was Kanon. The opposite is still technically possible.

EDIT: I'm speaking in terms of how you could look at a Kanon corpse and think that it was somebody else, not of Shkanon of course.
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Old 2010-04-23, 16:46   Link #8843
Judoh
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Lets try something different for alibis. So with the red we have
  • Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are not murderers
  • Furudo Erika is not the culprit.
  • Battler-kun is not the culprit.
  • Battler-kun didn't kill anyone.
  • Battler is neither the culprit nor an accomplice.
  • By this, we can establish a perfect alibi for Eva
  • neither Jessica nor Battler nor Eva is the culprit who killed Nanjo
  • Ushiromiya Natsuhi is not the culprit!
  • Ushiromiya Krauss is not the culprit. And he was killed long ago, shortly after you heard his voice over the phone, get it?
  • Come on, Ushiromiya Battler, kneel
  • If you accept me, all of the riddles will be resolved

any others?
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Old 2010-04-23, 16:48   Link #8844
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
So "they" refers to "the people in the servant's room" right?
They = Gohda, Nanjo, Kumasawa, Genji, Shannon

Gohda, Nanjo, Kumasawa, and Genji would not mistake Shannon for Kanon. So Shannon cannot be Kanon, because Shkanon requires that they are mistaken.
You're actually letting out the derivation of Shannon would not mistake Shannon for Kanon, which, I think, is stronger, as it means Shannon cannot believe she is Kanon.
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Old 2010-04-23, 16:52   Link #8845
SeagullCrazy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
You're actually letting out the derivation of Shannon would not mistake Shannon for Kanon, which, I think, is stronger, as it means Shannon cannot believe she is Kanon.
Haha, nice. I wonder what Shkanon supporters have to say about this.
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Old 2010-04-23, 16:53   Link #8846
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Kanon disappears in various episodes so you really don't solve the issue by explaining it in a single one. And what's so strange about Kanon disappearing? The island is huge, Battler can't possibly search every corner. Plus considering you accept the fact that Kinzo's corpse is found at least in Ep1, you'd still have a missing body in EP4, because Kinzo's body must be there somewhere.
Knox 8. Kanon was killed by someone. Shouldn't it be possible to determine where and how this happened, and therefore what happened to the body?

Kanon did not disappear in EP1 or EP3. He did disappear in EP2, but that can be easily explained with the same theory: that his body was disposed of to cast the suspicion on him. Given where he disappeared from and hints that bodies could be disposed of by dumping them out a window, this isn't much of a problem.

The existence of a hiding place for Kinzo's body has already been clear since EP2. Reusing it for EP4 shouldn't be a huge stretch.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
then using the word "demonstrate" was really out of place.
You asked me what purpose my theory would serve. If Kanon's body was incinerated, it would demonstrate that Kanon had polydactyly. You cannot argue this, because Battler observed that the burnt corpse had six toes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
lastly, the reason why Kinzo's corpse has always been found burnt should be extremely obvious right now. and you don't actually "need" another explanation.
If you've found a single motive that makes sense for both EP1 and EP3, I'd be interested in hearing it. Since I'm in the first twilight fakery camp, it's always seemed obvious to me that the corpse was burned for a different reason in each episode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
Sorry, but I was looking at the red text.

They definitely would not mistake any different person for Kanon!
* (This is referring to Kanon's appearance in Episode 2.)

I'm pretty sure that proves it wrong. And doesn't this prove Shkanon wrong, too? They can't mistake Shannon for Kanon, after all!
The red says you can't mistake another person for Kanon. It says nothing about mistaking Kanon for another person.
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Old 2010-04-23, 16:56   Link #8847
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Can you imagine Nanjo doing that?
I can, and it's very awesome. It would make him seem incredibly crazy. Reminds me of Lio Shirazumi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TkMacintosh View Post
That theory along with that line makes me think Asumu being the true murder is the reason why Rudolf is always taken out so quickly....ANGRY EX-WIFE IS ANGRY!!!
I'll also be mad if we don't ever get to see what Asumu looks like, heh.

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Originally Posted by the_rogue View Post
I have to admit, though, my optimism that the ending's going to be anything other than Shkanon is kind of draining down the sink right now . Shkanon fits a lot of things pretty well, and I'm not going to be silly about it.
Well, see. That's just the thing.

Shkanon by itself is not the only possible answer. In fact, I'd go so far as to agree with Renall in saying that it doesn't actually solve, and cannot solve, most of the closed rooms in any of the games. It certainly doesn't solve the final closed room in Ep2 any way you look at it, for instance. I'm sure someone with more time on their hands and more adept at seeing connections can come up with more examples.

Then why does Ryukishi seem to believe that Shkanon is the key to solving everything? Is he honestly just that clueless about his own work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
Haha, nice. I wonder what Shkanon supporters have to say about this.
That it doesn't matter because it's something that can just be glossed over?
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Old 2010-04-23, 17:02   Link #8848
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Then why does Ryukishi seem to believe that Shkanon is the key to solving everything? Is he honestly just that clueless about his own work?
The only thing I see pointing to that conclusion is the Zepar and Furfur thing. But I don't think it's possible that he's referring to Shkanon as they key. Maybe Beatrice is the key, but like you said Shkanon doesn't solve everything so how can it be the key to solving everything? Quit being so pessimistic. He talks in riddles all the time.

I still don't see why "the key" has to automatically refer to Shkanon. Do you honestly think the author is that arrogant and stupid? Show me one reason why I should interpret it that way.

Aren't the core arcs supposed to help us understand Beato's game? How can we solve everything if we don't know what the hell she is thinking?
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Old 2010-04-23, 17:02   Link #8849
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
Haha, nice. I wonder what Shkanon supporters have to say about this.
OMG...

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=8815

it's never a good idea trying to disprove a theory starting from the assumption the theory is wrong...
You are basically assuming Shannon and Kanon are different person therefore proving that Shannon (person A) cannot mistake herself for Kanon (person B). If you just assumed Shannon is Kanon you'd understand that this whole issue would become "Shannon/Kanon cannot mistake another person for herself"... meh..
try harder.


Quote:
If you've found a single motive that makes sense for both EP1 and EP3, I'd be interested in hearing it. Since I'm in the first twilight fakery camp, it's always seemed obvious to me that the corpse was burned for a different reason in each episode.
Why? Kinzo's has been dead for a while, the only way to conceal that is burn the body.
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Old 2010-04-23, 17:04   Link #8850
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
Haha, nice. I wonder what Shkanon supporters have to say about this.
Well, she is still allowed to lie about identifying herself as Kanon, but she cannot be mistaken about it. Which implies that if we assume Shannon is posing for Kanon, red statements about his life or death status become highly dubious, as in no sense of the word he can actually be alive.
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Old 2010-04-23, 17:09   Link #8851
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I can, and it's very awesome. It would make him seem incredibly crazy. Reminds me of Lio Shirazumi.
Awesome - yes. Fitting the rest of the story? Not really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
it's never a good idea trying to disprove a theory starting from the assumption the theory is wrong...
Actually, that particular red doesn't say anything very useful. In the context, it says no misidentification has occurred among a small group. It's applicability to the rest of the text is in itself questionable.

So what it does say is that everyone present at the scene lied. Big deal.
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Old 2010-04-23, 17:09   Link #8852
ameskitty
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Well, see. That's just the thing.

Shkanon by itself is not the only possible answer. In fact, I'd go so far as to agree with Renall in saying that it doesn't actually solve, and cannot solve, most of the closed rooms in any of the games. It certainly doesn't solve the final closed room in Ep2 any way you look at it, for instance. I'm sure someone with more time on their hands and more adept at seeing connections can come up with more examples.
Yeah, I agree that it doesn't solve everything by far. And that's why it'll disappoint me.

Quote:
Then why does Ryukishi seem to believe that Shkanon is the key to solving everything? Is he honestly just that clueless about his own work?
Unless Ryu wasn't talking about Shkanon, in which case I (and probably most people) still have no clue what the heck he could be talking about (but what else is new with these interviews?). The other "obvious" answers in EP6 don't solve anything, either. Well, save the identity of Beatrice and the explosion at the end, but those are really kind of extraneous to the closed rooms.
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Old 2010-04-23, 17:12   Link #8853
Jan-Poo
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You are forgetting that the Shkanon theory requires that a disguise is successful unless you think that everyone is lying with the exception of Battler who never met Kanon before.
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Old 2010-04-23, 17:13   Link #8854
SeagullCrazy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
OMG...

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=8815

it's never a good idea trying to disproving a theory starting from the assumption the theory is wrong...
try harder..
I guess it could be interpreted as "Shannon disguised herself so well that no person could tell she was the same person as Kanon."

But I still don't like it.
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Old 2010-04-23, 17:15   Link #8855
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
You are forgetting that the Shkanon theory requires that a disguise is successful
I refer you to my earlier post.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=8732
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Old 2010-04-23, 17:15   Link #8856
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I still don't see why "the key" has to automatically refer to Shkanon. Do you honestly think the author is that arrogant and stupid? Show me one reason why I should interpret it that way.
Brain parasites. Queen bee.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Awesome - yes. Fitting the rest of the story? Not really.
...And? There are so many extraneous things in Umineko anyway. A fat old man waltzing around in that dress while pretending to be a hot young woman wouldn't really make it any more ridiculous than it already is.

And it would make Nanjo interesting, at least.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_rogue View Post
Well, save the identity of Beatrice and the explosion at the end, but those are really kind of extraneous to the closed rooms.
And were solved by the fanbase after Ep4 anyway. Although those are supposed to be the easy mysteries, I guess.
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Old 2010-04-23, 17:18   Link #8857
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
You are forgetting that the Shkanon theory requires that a disguise is successful unless you think that everyone is lying with the exception of Battler who never met Kanon before.
q.v. below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
I guess it could be interpreted as "Shannon disguised herself so well that no person could tell she was the same person as Kanon."

But I still don't like it.
Zero-accomplice perfect-disguise Shkanon is so obviously silly that if anyone buys that they have to also accept a Dual Rosa theory I mentioned above.

If Shkanon is in any manner true, the list of 'they' in that particular case closely corresponds with the minimal list of people who have to be in on it and support it.
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Old 2010-04-23, 17:19   Link #8858
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
Sorry, but I was looking at the red text.

They definitely would not mistake any different person for Kanon!
* (This is referring to Kanon's appearance in Episode 2.)

I'm pretty sure that proves it wrong. And doesn't this prove Shkanon wrong, too? They can't mistake Shannon for Kanon, after all!
Oh, this pretty much ruins my theory of Episode 1 disguise. Is Kanon the killer after all? Or Shkanon where her body doesn't exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I'll also be mad if we don't ever get to see what Asumu looks like, heh.

Shkanon by itself is not the only possible answer. In fact, I'd go so far as to agree with Renall in saying that it doesn't actually solve, and cannot solve, most of the closed rooms in any of the games. It certainly doesn't solve the final closed room in Ep2 any way you look at it, for instance. I'm sure someone with more time on their hands and more adept at seeing connections can come up with more examples.
That Asumu theory by Ssol was pretty interesting (probably had a lot of EP6 references I couldn't understand). It should mean that the Hachiyo Tohya (Featherinne/Witch-Hanyuu?), a mystery writer seen at the beginning would be Asumu. So guess that's what she could look like unless Tohya is in a disguise in front of Ange. I got the impression that she was disguising as a man in someplace from the 6 sentences of japanese I was able to translate
Yeah, I want to see her picture.

Well for last murder of EP2 I thought that whoever was the last one alive in the room suicided after the door was locked. The next deaths would be caused by the explosion anyway.

My theories seem to heavily rely on a fake death, one in all except EP4
So what are the chances of Jessica being alive after the second twilight of EP2?

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Brain parasites. Queen bee.
I'm pretty positive that Ryukishi has learned from back then.
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Old 2010-04-23, 17:20   Link #8859
Jan-Poo
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I don't suggest modifying the red to that extent.

what we have is

They definitely would not mistake any different person for Kanon!

which in case shkanon is true, "any different person" doesn't include Shannon.
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Old 2010-04-23, 17:20   Link #8860
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
If Shkanon is in any manner true, the list of 'they' in that particular case closely corresponds with the minimal list of people who have to be in on it and support it.
Additionally, I believe I've shown before that practically everyone but Battler would have to be in on it if we count every scene in every episode that has Shannon and Kanon together in it.

This is why I don't like it.
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