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Old 2010-04-23, 17:20   Link #8861
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Brain parasites. Queen bee.
That doesn't tell me why that can be the only way it can be interpreted. Why can't Maria or Beatrice be the frikkin key? The whole reason Battler figured out his answer was because he finally understood what the game master before him was THINKING. He turned the chessboard over.
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Old 2010-04-23, 17:22   Link #8862
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Brain parasites. Queen bee.
Wait.

Hallucinogenic butterflies and Shkanontrice as the queen bee!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
And it would make Nanjo interesting, at least.
Well, ok, I guess it would be amusing enough to make me forgive some things...
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Old 2010-04-23, 17:26   Link #8863
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
That doesn't tell me why that can be the only way it can be interpreted. Why can't Maria or Beatrice be the frikkin key? The whole reason Battler figured out his answer was because he finally understood what the game master before him was THINKING. He turned the chessboard over.
You're assuming that the big sequence with Battler in the Sea of Fragments and all the everpresent metaphors actually mean something, because you're also assuming that Ryukishi knows what he's doing.

I put it to you that he DOESN'T know what he's doing. What then? Doesn't every discrepancy make sense if he's just another idiot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
Well for last murder of EP2 I thought that whoever was the last one alive in the room suicided after the door was locked. The next deaths would be caused by the explosion anyway.
But Shkanon can't explain that at all, right, since she couldn't possibly have killed herself. Battler even confirms her death, so she's not faking.

George or Gohda would have to be the killer there, and, well, my money's on George.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
So what are the chances of Jessica being alive after the second twilight of EP2?
Perfectly possible under the red. I had the same idea, so I made sure to check and double-check.

It is perfectly possible for Jessica to have both faked her death in Ep2 and be the primary killer for the episode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Hallucinogenic butterflies and Shkanontrice as the queen bee!
Isn't this one of the things that Lambda made fun of? Still, I wouldn't put it past Ryukishi at this point.
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Old 2010-04-23, 17:29   Link #8864
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By the way, about the 'key' that Ryukishi mentioned... rather than it being a person, wasn't it the solution of how Battler got out of that room? In other words this is the way closed rooms are formed over nearly all the episodes.

Actually, you know... even if we don't know *how* we now know *who*. It's Kanon... he's responsible for a number of closed rooms. Which ones and why?
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Old 2010-04-23, 17:29   Link #8865
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
You're assuming that all those metaphors and that big sequence with Battler in the Sea of Fragments actually means anything, because you're also assuming that Ryukishi knows what he's doing.

I put it to you that he DOESN'T know what he's doing. What then? Doesn't every discrepancy make sense if you assume that he's just another idiot?
YOUR assuming that he's suggesting only one answer can exist. I already quoted something he said in the same interveiw suggesting multiple answers exist. I'm assuming that he's not going to confirm anything yet because of this.
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Old 2010-04-23, 17:32   Link #8866
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
But Shkanon can't explain that at all, right, since she couldn't possibly have killed herself. Battler even confirms her death, so she's not faking.

George or Gohda would have to be the killer there, and, well, my money's on George.
Some kind of honour killing maybe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Perfectly possible under the red. I had the same idea, so I made sure to check and double-check.

It is perfectly possible for Jessica to have both faked her death in Ep2 and be the primary killer for the episode.
Yes, my theory is about Jessica being the main culprit there, but I think of where did she get a weapon? Stakes could have been hidden in rooms beforehand, but weapons and magic circles. Shotguns were in Kinzo's study right? So she could get in only with help of Genji and Shannon. For individuel rooms she'd use Kanon's master key before setting up her death.
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Old 2010-04-23, 17:33   Link #8867
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Why? Kinzo's has been dead for a while, the only way to conceal that is burn the body.
Because according to that motive, there was never a need to expose the body in the first place. Natsuhi was going to report him missing, not produce his corpse. If anything, burning it makes her and Krauss look guilty of murder. The only way it could make sense is if real murders had already taken place, as in EP1, or if the burner wanted to frame Natsuhi and Krauss (or others in the conspiracy), which doesn't work in EP1 since the real murderer would obviously receive the blame.

However, passing the corpse off as a victim of the real murderer doesn't work at all in EP3 if the first twilight was originally fake. Since the fakery would eventually be revealed, producing a real burnt corpse would be the height of stupidity; as before, it would trigger a murder investigation. Moreover, since Natsuhi and Krauss were trapped in the family conference all night, there would be no way for the servants to find out that their deception had fallen through.

And yet, the framing motive doesn't work either. Since both Natsuhi and Krauss had an ironclad alibi all night, the suspicion would end up falling on the servants who had been faking their deaths instead. Therefore, there was no reason for a conspirator who was not also the actual murderer to expose the corpse, and that conspirator could not have done so with the cooperation of the others.

In short, neither variation of "Phantom Kinzo conspirators concealing the time of Kinzo's death" can possibly work for both episodes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon
Brain parasites. Queen bee.
You realize that both of those were actually debunked within Higurashi, right?
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Old 2010-04-23, 17:36   Link #8868
Judoh
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Oh right I forgot to mention.

Takano is delusional in Higurashi. She made up the parasites thing up just like she made up the idea that Rika is an alien and that the demons were maggots. the only sources she had for that were her own scrap books and they made Rena delusional. She's one of the main causes of the madness in Rule X.
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Old 2010-04-23, 17:36   Link #8869
Jan-Poo
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Shkanon by itself is not the only possible answer. In fact, I'd go so far as to agree with Renall in saying that it doesn't actually solve, and cannot solve, most of the closed rooms in any of the games. It certainly doesn't solve the final closed room in Ep2 any way you look at it, for instance. I'm sure someone with more time on their hands and more adept at seeing connections can come up with more examples.
Well actually... the shkanon theory can solve the last closed room by extension, chronotrig will surely point out that the "personality can die" trick is a direct consequence of his shkanon theory. Which means the EP6 closed room case can be explained simply with a "Kanon's personality died".

As I said I really don't like it... but I can't help noticing that it actually fits.
Kanon entered
only battler left, so Kanon never left
Kanon magically disappeared
Kanon does not exist in the room

Either Kanon's personality died, or Kanon actually died just after entering.

I don't know which one is the lamest explanation


Quote:
Because according to that motive, there was never a need to expose the body in the first place. Natsuhi was going to report him missing, not produce his corpse. If anything, burning it makes her and Krauss look guilty of murder. The only way it could make sense is if real murders had already taken place, as in EP1, or if the burner wanted to frame Natsuhi and Krauss (or others in the conspiracy), which doesn't work in EP1 since the real murderer would obviously receive the blame.

However, passing the corpse off as a victim of the real murderer doesn't work at all in EP3 if the first twilight was originally fake. Since the fakery would eventually be revealed, producing a real burnt corpse would be the height of stupidity; as before, it would trigger a murder investigation. Moreover, since Natsuhi and Krauss were trapped in the family conference all night, there would be no way for the servants to find out that their deception had fallen through.

And yet, the framing motive doesn't work either. Since both Natsuhi and Krauss had an ironclad alibi all night, the suspicion would end up falling on the servants who had been faking their deaths instead. Therefore, there was no reason for a conspirator who was not also the actual murderer to expose the corpse, and that conspirator could not have done so with the cooperation of the others.
Such thinking never even occurred to me...

Beatrice is trying to create the illusion of a twilight serial murder. She's not burning Kinzo to save or frame Natsuhi, she's doing it because it would be apparent that Kinzo isn't a twilight victim otherwise.
As to why she has to use Kinzo, why not? Everyone believes Kinzo is alive, regardless of his real life/death status he's still eligible of being selected in the roulette. And Beatrice likes pranks and illusions anyway.
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Old 2010-04-23, 17:37   Link #8870
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
YOUR assuming that he's suggesting only one answer can exist. I already quoted something he said in the same interveiw suggesting multiple answers exist. I'm assuming that he's not going to confirm anything yet because of this.
You're also assuming that he know what the possible answers are, which is not necessarily true even if he believes himself to be telling the truth. That is, you cannot discount the 'wisdom of crowds' approach to mystery writing is in effect.
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Old 2010-04-23, 17:41   Link #8871
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Either Kanon's personality died, or Kanon actually died just after entering.

I don't know which one is the lamest explanation
Considering that we actually saw Erika shoot Kanon five times, is "he died after entering" really that strange?
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Old 2010-04-23, 17:44   Link #8872
SeagullCrazy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
As I said I really don't like it... but I can't help noticing that it actually fits.
Kanon entered
only battler left, so Kanon never left
Kanon magically disappeared
Kanon does not exist in the room

Either Kanon's personality died, or Kanon actually died just after entering.

I don't know which one is the lamest explanation
I've said it before. Erika killed Kanon. She obviously killed the other first twilight victims, so she was also planning on killing Battler. She didn't know that Battler left the room, and assumed he was hiding in the closet. As soon as she opened the closet door, she stabbed/shot the person inside, who was actually Kanon, not Battler.

It makes perfect sense to me, at least.
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Old 2010-04-23, 17:45   Link #8873
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
By the way, about the 'key' that Ryukishi mentioned... rather than it being a person, wasn't it the solution of how Battler got out of that room? In other words this is the way closed rooms are formed over nearly all the episodes.
Yes, and a certain reading of those lines implies that Shkanon is central to all of the rooms, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
YOU'RE assuming that he's suggesting only one answer can exist. I already quoted something he said suggesting multiple answers exist. I'm assuming that he's not going to confirm anything yet because of this.
I've just realized I have nothing particularly intelligent to say to this, so I won't. Anything else would be trolling at this point.

You win the argument this time, boy! *shakes fist*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
Yes, my theory is about Jessica being the main culprit there, but I think of where did she get a weapon? Stakes could have been hidden in rooms beforehand, but weapons and magic circles. Shotguns were in Kinzo's study right? So she could get in only with help of Genji and Shannon.

Nothing prevents more weapons from being used than we get to see.
Besides, the only people who die after Jessica are Nanjo and Kumasawa (died from having their throats cut, probably by the billhook Kanon uses like twice) and the last three (died from (presumably) stakes).

Genji could have and probably did paint the magic circles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
You realize that both of those were actually debunked within Higurashi, right?
Eh?

I've only seen the anime, so maybe it's different in the novel, but... I thought it went like this:

Spoiler for higurashi:


Am I wrong...?
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Old 2010-04-23, 17:46   Link #8874
Judoh
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If Kanon was shot dead and he's not in the room he could always die while attempting to exit through the door way

Or is it only possible that he would be inside the room while not existing there?
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Old 2010-04-23, 17:49   Link #8875
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Considering that we actually saw Erika shoot Kanon five times, is "he died after entering" really that strange
Wait... when did that happen?

Anyway it's still a lame explanation because you'd have to think Erika (or her piece whatever) killed Kanon and she doesn't know!

Completely disregarding the fact that when she previously killed someone she was so aware of that, that she could even use red about it...

don't tell it isn't lame.
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Old 2010-04-23, 17:49   Link #8876
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
You're also assuming that he know what the possible answers are, which is not necessarily true even if he believes himself to be telling the truth. That is, you cannot discount the 'wisdom of crowds' approach to mystery writing is in effect.

Do multiple answers have to be known by the author? NO. Ones he didn't expect can always appear later.

Can he assume his fans can come up with multiple answers that lead to the same conclusion? YES
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Old 2010-04-23, 17:53   Link #8877
Ssol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I'll also be mad if we don't ever get to see what Asumu looks like, heh.
Asumu is probably the most important character in this game without a tachi-e. I suppose he could have just done a quick flashback to take care of that. We got tachi-e for one episode characters like the witch hunt professor and nanjo's son but never one for the mother of the main character of the story.

Anyway, there have been very few flashback scenes apart from Ange's story in episode 4 and we don't know what any of the Ushiromiya family (except for young Eva) used to look like. Well, at least the anime helped with that.

I can't wait to see what answer we get in episode 7 so I can look back at the anime and check to see if there were enough clues to reach the answer.

By the way, that interview was interesting but does episode 6 only point to Shkanon? I think episode 6 gives a lot of hints towards other theories as well.
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Old 2010-04-23, 17:55   Link #8878
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don't forget that Ryukishi specifically said that Zepar and Furfur are telling a lot of important stuff in order to find the truth.

As far as I remember they don't say anything about Hachijo and Asumu
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Old 2010-04-23, 17:57   Link #8879
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That's right, that's why I think Shkanon has to be true. But which version of Shkanon is true?

Also, Shkanon can be true at the same time as Asumu = Hachijou. Oh, wouldn't that be a fun one.
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Old 2010-04-23, 17:57   Link #8880
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Do multiple answers have to be known by the author? NO. Ones he didn't expect can always appear later.

Can he assume his fans can come up with multiple answers that lead to the same conclusion? YES
Consider this strategy:
  1. Create a sufficiently convoluted puzzle. Don't bother too much about the answers yet.
  2. Wait for the readers to propose a few solutions.
  3. Reveal new information that denies the most obvious ones that don't make you look very clever.
  4. Repeat 1-3 for a while until you're sure you don't know the answer yourself.
  5. Reaffirm publicly that one exists. Closely monitor the discussion.
  6. Pick several of the most clever but contradictory answers offered and confirm all of those by revealing more information.
  7. Stay tight lipped on which of them is the 'true' one.

It still fits, doesn't it.
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