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Old 2010-04-23, 18:00   Link #8881
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Consider this strategy:
  1. Create a sufficiently convoluted puzzle. Don't bother too much about the answers yet.
  2. Wait for the readers to propose a few solutions.
  3. Reveal new information that denies the most obvious ones that don't make you look very clever.
  4. Repeat 1-3 for a while until you're sure you don't know the answer yourself.
  5. Reaffirm publicly that one exists. Closely monitor the discussion.
  6. Pick several of the most clever but contradictory answers offered and confirm all of those by revealing more information.
  7. Stay tight lipped on which of them is the 'true' one.

It still fits, doesn't it.
I'm not sure what your getting at. Can you explain it to me? What fits?
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Old 2010-04-23, 18:01   Link #8882
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I've only seen the anime, so maybe it's different in the novel, but... I though it went like this:

Spoiler for higurashi:


Am I wrong...?
Spoiler for Higurashi:
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Old 2010-04-23, 18:02   Link #8883
Bluemail
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Sorry I have nothing to say for these EP6 things, but I'll just continue this a little.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post

Nothing prevents more weapons from being used than we get to see.
Besides, the only people who die after Jessica are Nanjo and Kumasawa (died from having their throats cut, probably by the billhook Kanon uses like twice) and the last three (died from (presumably) stakes).

Genji could have and probably did paint the magic circles.
Yeah, I guess you're right, but it would be kind of strange for weapons to appear out of nowhere, except taking knives and stuff from the kitchen. The guns are needed for the holes of the stakes, because wouldn't it be difficult to drive a stake so deep into someone with bare hands? Well of course hammers and such could be used. And was there something about the stakes in Kumasawa and Nanjo, too loose or not so deep or something? And the people in Natsuhi's room kept stabbing themselves to death? That way you wouldn't really need the shotguns.
Well I think Jessica came to the servants instead of Kanon and claimed Rosa to have tried to kill them. Then they devised a lie about Kanon and helped Jessica operate in some way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Eh?

I've only seen the anime, so maybe it's different in the novel, but... I though it went like this:

Spoiler for higurashi:


Am I wrong...?
Hmm yeah, that's how I remember. Was there some more info in the VN, this was all made up by the culprit?
EDIT: Too slow... Yeah that makes sense what you say LyricalAura, guess I didn't think about it too much when all the answers were available
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Old 2010-04-23, 18:05   Link #8884
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
That's right, that's why I think Shkanon has to be true. But which version of Shkanon is true?

Also, Shkanon can be true at the same time as Asumu = Hachijou. Oh, wouldn't that be a fun one.
Ah yeah. I really hope Ryuukishi is going to surprise me at least on that.
Not only because I want at least some element of surprise beside the confirmation of my theories being correct, but also because the current shkanon theories aren't totally satisfactory (imho). It's more of a wish than anything else, it's a fact that a lot of people do not like any of the shkanon interpretations being explained so far. Regardless of my personal opinion, Ryukishi shouldn't let half of the fanbase rage.

That's why Ryukishi's got to have a very good explanation
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Old 2010-04-23, 18:06   Link #8885
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Wait... when did that happen?

Anyway it's still a lame explanation because you'd have to think Erika (or her piece whatever) killed Kanon and she doesn't know!
It was during the duel, when Meta Erika thought she'd finally cornered Kanon in the closet. She used her dueling pistol to fire five shots into his supposed body, one for each of the remaining twilights. It was only after that that Beato caused his body to evaporate.

So it could be like this: Beato tricked Erika into thinking she was making a magic-world move when she was actually making a real-world move.
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Old 2010-04-23, 18:08   Link #8886
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I'm not sure what your getting at. Can you explain it to me? What fits?
Sigh...

A unique approach to mystery writing is available to an author of a serialised mystery text that comes out in instalments if he is able to monitor the audience response and theorising.

This approach consists of creating a text in which a convoluted puzzle is presented, without thinking of a certain 'correct' answer beforehand, and large sections of text are presented as narration unreliable in one way or another without giving a clear way to determine which narration is reliable and which isn't.

By adjusting further instalments to audience response, so that they deny theories that do not make the author look clever and reinforce ones that do, the author is able to outsource the process of puzzling the readers to readers themselves.

Which is actually, in a sense, the ultimate form of reader trolling if it gets out that the author did anything of the sort.
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(updated 2010-08-24)

Last edited by Oliver; 2010-04-23 at 18:10. Reason: argh, grammar
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Old 2010-04-23, 18:08   Link #8887
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
That's why Ryukishi's got to have a very good explanation
And I'll say it again I want a damn Sayo sprite. If Kanon and Shannon are the same person I want a sprite of that individual person who disguises as them. I also want to know what hints ( in 1986) point to the disguise. Because I see no one who is suspicious of it.
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Old 2010-04-23, 18:12   Link #8888
chronotrig
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Just some words that no one is going to listen to, but that I think need to be said.

While some of the arguments against Shkanon that have been mentioned in the last few pages have merit, the sad fact is that many of them do not. These either refer to only specific versions of Shkanon which even many Shkanon fans (and Ryuukishi) would call ridiculous, ignore sets of hints given throughout the games, or are logically unsound.

By this point, we can be fairly sure, though not completely, that Shkanon is at least a part of the solution to Umineko. In that case, there's not much point in trying to denounce the theory itself. If you don't like it, you can judge Ryuukishi however you want and decide whether you want to continue following the series.

However, I think that after spending so much time on this game, we should all give Ryuukishi the benefit of the doubt. If you actually read through the games and certain theories under the assumption that Shkanon might be true, you'll find that it does work better than a lot of you think it does. If you start out by assuming that Shkanon is stupid, and look for ways that it might be more stupid, you'll have zero chance at figuring out why it works.

In other words, without love, it cannot be seen. You've spent this long on the series, so why not spend a little more? See if you can find evidence supporting Shkanon, instead of trying to build an argument against it. Just think of it as a mind game. If you still can't support Shkanon after doing that, then you have good reason to be disappointed with the series. But give it some time.
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Old 2010-04-23, 18:12   Link #8889
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Sigh...

A unique approach to mystery writing is available to an author of a serialised mystery text that comes out in instalments if he is able to monitor the audience response and theorising.

This approach consists of creating a text in which a convoluted puzzle is presented, without thinking of a certain 'correct' answer beforehand, and large sections of text are presented as narration unreliable in one way or another without giving a clear way to determine which narration is reliable and which isn't.

By adjusting further instalments to audience response, so that they deny theories that do not make the author look clever and reinforce ones that do, the author is able to outsource the process of puzzling the readers to readers themselves.

Which is actually, in a sense, the ultimate form of reader trolling if it gets out that the author did anything of the sort.
I think EP6 adequately explained that while you can try to write mysteries on the fly like this, it's incredibly dangerous and stupid. Do people really think Ryukishi would write such a thing if that's what he was doing?
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Old 2010-04-23, 18:13   Link #8890
Ssol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
And I'll say it again I want a damn Sayo sprite. If Kanon and Shannon are the same person I want a sprite of that individual person who disguises as them. I also want to know what hints ( in 1986) point to the disguise. Because I see no one who is suspicious of it.
I think I've seen a fan made version of it but I don't have it saved anywhere.

In episode 7, Ryukishi said the game will not progress chronologically like the other games. That could mean that the events will simply be shown out of order or we'll get flashbacks and flashfowards (hopefully with new tachi-e for everyone). Maybe he meant something else but it's definitely made me curious.
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Old 2010-04-23, 18:15   Link #8891
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
I think EP6 adequately explained that while you can try to write mysteries on the fly like this, it's incredibly dangerous and stupid. Do people really think Ryukishi would write such a thing if that's what he was doing?
No, but sometimes I suspect the possibility shouldn't be outright discounted.
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This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
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(updated 2010-08-24)
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Old 2010-04-23, 18:19   Link #8892
Bluemail
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That sounds quite interesting, maybe it's like collection of kakera like in the epitaph-solving scene in EP5, with extra info. After all it was hinted of Bern being the game master in EP7 right? This might actually lead us to read through some episode(s) from another person's perspective. Maybe not yet the culprit. But the point of view of for example Rudolf/Kyrie/Rosa would be interesting. We might even get some kind of character selection :3
As this is going more for the romance, it'll be a dating sim. Well about the debate of multiple truths, is it possible Ryukishi might be doing multiple endings, in general VN-style? With combining clues like what was in Matsuribayashi-hen (was there? I just read it somewhere).
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Old 2010-04-23, 18:22   Link #8893
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
I think I've seen a fan made version of it but I don't have it saved anywhere.

In episode 7, Ryukishi said the game will not progress chronologically like the other games. That could mean that the events will simply be shown out of order or we'll get flashbacks and flashfowards (hopefully with new tachi-e for everyone). Maybe he meant something else but it's definitely made me curious.
To be honest I can accept Shkanon. Or certain elements of it. I actually have fun with the personality killing idea.

I'm just angry because people are fussing over an interview thinking it's been confirmed prematurely, when the most any of us have is an ATLAS translation of episode 6, which isn't actually the best thing to help us find our own answer. There may be some deeper meaning in What Zepar in Furfur say.

I've really been trying to find hints for the disguise part of Shkanon too. I've been looking and looking, but I just can't find it. This makes me frustrated because I think this is an important part of Kanon's character if he is a disguise, and the only evidence I seem to see for a disguise is that there is nothing denying it's possible, which is the same as a Devil's proof.

And I have read Chronotrigs theory.
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Old 2010-04-23, 18:25   Link #8894
Midnight Bliss
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I think Shkanon can be accepted. It's definitely possible, there have been hints for it, it's hard to deny at moments even with strong anti-shkanon theorists. The thing is, some versions of Shkanon are pretty ridiculous, and some people just don't agree to some of them, or see how it's possible. The whole basis for Shkanon is one thing, but all the different possible versions of it is another, and I think that's what a lot of people have an issue with.
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Old 2010-04-23, 18:28   Link #8895
chronotrig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I've really been trying to find hints for the disguise part of Shkanon too. I've been looking and looking, but I just can't find it. This makes me frustrated because I think this is an important part of Kanon's character if he is a disguise, and the only evidence I seem to see for a disguise is that there is nothing denying it's possible, which is the same as a Devil's proof.
Well, I think a distinction should be made here (again, this post assumes my particular theory, so I'm not saying this is proven). This is a pretty minor point, but Kanon isn't like a normal disguise. Normally, a disguise is something you use to trick someone into thinking you're someone else. It can fail if you aren't able to replicate the appearance or behavior of that "someone else" well enough.

However, Kanon has always been Kanon. From the first time Jessica saw him until the day of his death, "he" has always been in the same disguise. So any problems with the disguise would have been present when they first met, and still present at the end. If anything, those problems would shrink in number as time went on and Kanon got more used to it. So it would actually make less sense if someone were to suddenly discover something in 1986. Most likely, if they were to find something a bit suspicious, they would have noticed it years ago and dismissed it by the time of the murders.
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Old 2010-04-23, 18:29   Link #8896
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
It was during the duel, when Meta Erika thought she'd finally cornered Kanon in the closet. She used her dueling pistol to fire five shots into his supposed body, one for each of the remaining twilights. It was only after that that Beato caused his body to evaporate.

So it could be like this: Beato tricked Erika into thinking she was making a magic-world move when she was actually making a real-world move.
Clever. But how do you make that work with this statement?

Quote:
At this point in time, have any players found the correct method of Battler's escape?

Ryuukishi: I think so. I think there are many people who have found the 'key' that leads to the truth.
However, it looks as though very few people have actually taken that key, returned to the previous episodes, and put it in the keyhole.
if your theory is correct then Battler's method of escape entails being "rescued" by a person who then gets unintentionally killed by the ones that check the room.

how do you take this key and use it to explain stuff from previous episodes?
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Old 2010-04-23, 18:35   Link #8897
SeagullCrazy
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
if your theory is correct then Battler's method of escape entails being "rescued" by a person who then gets unintentionally killed by the ones that check the room.

how do you take this key and use it to explain stuff from previous episodes?
While I agree with that theory, I don't think that's exactly what Ryukishi means by the key.
I think it's this statement I've referred to many times.

For the chain to be set, there must be someone hiding on the inside.

Ryukishi goes to great lengths to show us there is no possible way to escape that room without someone setting the chain from the inside. It's described in that theory, too, with Kanon being on the inside. This is very relevant to the other closed room murders, which is why I think it's what he meant.
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Old 2010-04-23, 18:38   Link #8898
Judoh
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
However, Kanon has always been Kanon. From the first time Jessica saw him until the day of his death, "he" has always been in the same disguise.
And this premise is so hard to understand. I can understand the idea that he can be an imaginary person on people's mental gameboards, I understand the idea that he can be a personality. I understand the idea that they can always be the same person. I acknowledge there are hints for these specific things.

HOWEVER. How can Kanon be seen as a person if he was always a disguise? Even born that way? How can he be put into somebody's mental game board if he didn't previously exist as a person? There is no reason to disguise as Kanon (hide the fact that he doesn't exist) if he wasn't an individual person before Oct 4th 1986. It's that simple. Why make a disguise for a person people know if he doesn't exist and it is not possible to know him?
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Old 2010-04-23, 18:41   Link #8899
Jan-Poo
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Ryukishi goes to great lengths to show us there is no possible way to escape that room without someone setting the chain from the inside. It's described in that theory, too, with Kanon being on the inside. This is very relevant to the other closed room murders, which is why I think it's what he meant.
That's quite.... an underwhelming key to solve all the mysteries...
You don't even have to reason about it, that's what Beatrice herself said!

and people hiding inside the rooms has been denied in several cases
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Old 2010-04-23, 18:42   Link #8900
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
That's quite.... an underwhelming key to solve all the mysteries...

and people hiding inside the rooms has been denied in several cases
Do you consider Battler's hidden cabinet in episode 2 to be a hidden passage? I thought it was interesting that that theory he came up with is not specifically denied by Knox's third and it wasn't really denied for that room either I don't think.
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