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Old 2010-04-23, 18:45   Link #8901
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
no I never said that.
The trick of the culprit hiding inside the closed rooms is one of the first thing Battler imagined. This was explored a lot and thoroughly denied in all of its forms.
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Old 2010-04-23, 18:45   Link #8902
SeagullCrazy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
and people hiding inside the rooms has been denied in several cases
Well, in the cases where hiding has been denied (all of which were in EP2), it's still possible for the killer to exist in the room and not be hiding. Like, if they were there in plain sight, but weren't under much suspicion at the time... (Jessica's corpse?)
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Old 2010-04-23, 18:45   Link #8903
DgBarca
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Well, hi everybody! I am, like, totality new here. So....hi....

So, I was messing around with TIPS when I decided to do this.
I find that there is some strange things in here.
Battler, Rosa AND Maria not being hit AT ALL during all the games (well, it only counts the 3 first EP, after that the stakes are not that...used).
In a "magical" point of view, you can say that Battler have a strong magic resistance, and Maria is *supposed* to be protected by Mariage Sorciere (Béato needs Maria for her magic), but Rosa...No way ! She has many many sins ans don't have a very strong magic resistance (surrender in EP2 Tea Party), so...it doesn't make any sense.

On a "no-magic" point of view...it...well, I didn't wrote all the stuff in the "Why?" section, maybe some sins don't match with the characters.

Or all of this is useless, and it is completely random.

Last edited by DgBarca; 2010-04-23 at 18:50. Reason: (fix link)
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Old 2010-04-23, 18:53   Link #8904
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
Well, in the cases where hiding has been denied (all of which were in EP2), it's still possible for the killer to exist in the room and not be hiding. Like, if they were there in plain sight, but weren't under much suspicion at the time... (Jessica's corpse?)
Again, underwhelming. the trick of the murdered people not actually being murdered has been shown quite evidently by Battler and Erika in Ep6.

both this and the "culprit hiding in the room" are apparent solution which do not require any thinking because Ryukishi already made the thinking for us.

to call either of it a "key to the mysteries" would be an overstatement


@DgBarca.
Yeah... that's odd. Funny, I've never really thought about that before. But it's also true that we have a limited amount of samples to refer to. Rosa might have been skipped by mere chance.
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Old 2010-04-23, 18:56   Link #8905
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Spoiler for Higurashi:
DEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEN.

I'm done. I have nothing bad to say about Ryukishi anymore. A random neurological disease is perfectly acceptable within the bounds of speculative fiction, which Higurashi is and Umineko is not.

Now excuse me while I direct my ire at Studio Deen. I'm sorry I was such an ass, everyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
In other words, without love, it cannot be seen. You've spent this long on the series, so why not spend a little more? See if you can find evidence supporting Shkanon, instead of trying to build an argument against it.
Oh, I've seen the evidence that supports it. I've also seen the evidence against it. The latter impresses me more than the former.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnight Bliss View Post
The whole basis for Shkanon is one thing, but all the different possible versions of it is another, and I think that's what a lot of people have an issue with.
I agree with this. I'd be less opposed to the theory if it could work within the bounds of both common sense and logic, as most of the versions I've seen here really... don't.

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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Do you consider Battler's hidden cabinet in episode 2 to be a hidden passage? I thought it was interesting that that theory he came up with is not specifically denied by Knox's third and it wasn't really denied for that room either I don't think.
Well, there isn't one in Jessica's room, at least. However, there is no red denying anyone hiding in Natsuhi's room.

Kuku, support for the Jessica-culprit theory continues to accrue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Yeah... that's odd. Funny, I've never really thought about that before. But it's also true that we have a limited amount of samples to refer to. Rosa might have been skipped by mere chance.
I actually brought this up before, although my conclusions were that Maria is sinless and Rosa has too many sins for the staker to decide which one to use. (Alternatively, either Maria or Rosa is the staker.)
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Old 2010-04-23, 18:57   Link #8906
chronotrig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Again, underwhelming. the trick of the murdered people not actually being murdered has been shown quite evidently by Battler and Erika in Ep6.

both this and the "culprit hiding in the room" are apparent solution which do not require any thinking because Ryukishi already made the thinking for us.

to call either of it a "key to the mysteries" would be an overstatement
On the other hand, remember that we are dealing with closed room murders here, a genre that has been done a billion times. It's flat out impossible for Ryuukishi to think up something totally original, and very unlikely that anything never seen before, or even most of the closed room tricks that appear in mystery novels, would be likely to work again and again in an isolated situation like Umineko.

That's why I think the real "trick" of the game shouldn't be some practical closed room thing. If you want one of those, literally thousands of mystery novels can already be gotten for cheaper. There's nothing wrong with those.
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Old 2010-04-23, 18:59   Link #8907
Jan-Poo
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Well while I do am wishing for something totally original, I could settle for something that at least wasn't blatantly showed already by Ryukishi himself.

And that's not the case of the two mentioned tricks
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Old 2010-04-23, 19:00   Link #8908
Marion
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Rosa is always targeted first, most likely because of "Beatrice" resenting her for being cruel to Maria all the time. Only time she isn't killed on the 1st or 10th twilight is on the 2nd twilight - however that murder is assumed to be done by a 2nd culprit and was clearly a rushed job (gun was left, Maria was clearly choked, etc) so it makes sense why she wasn't staked.

Maria and "Beatrice" clearly sympathize with each other on some level, so that's probably why she never gets staked as well. Battler always survives till the end so there's no time to stake him before the place explodes. Only time there is time is in EP 3, but clearly Eva doesn't do it and I can't see why the clearly delusional and not to mention blind Jessica would be able to.
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Old 2010-04-23, 19:00   Link #8909
chronotrig
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Oh, I've seen the evidence that supports it. I've also seen the evidence against it. The latter impresses me more than the former.
See, that's the problem. Are you absolutely sure that you understand everything about Shkanon and all of the evidence for it? 100% sure without a doubt? Unless you are, it won't hurt to go back through the games and look for more.

And when you brought up DID, that pretty much showed that you hadn't understood all of the Shkanon theories, so there probably is something you could learn if you looked.
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Old 2010-04-23, 19:03   Link #8910
SeagullCrazy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Again, underwhelming. the trick of the murdered people not actually being murdered has been shown quite evidently by Battler and Erika in Ep6.

both this and the "culprit hiding in the room" are apparent solution which do not require any thinking because Ryukishi already made the thinking for us.
Remember what Ryukishi said in the interview?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryukishi07
To go even further, one could say that all things that appeared after EP5 are not hints, but part of the answer.
There was even another chain-locked room in EP5 to get us to figure it out. In that room, there was someone hiding in the bathroom, not the closet. I think it was his intention to get us to solve that mystery, and we would come to the same conclusion. But almost nobody did that, because "lol Hideyoshi was never confirmed dead so it's irrelevant."

Then Ryukishi has to make it plainly obvious in EP6, devoting a ton of scenes to just Battler doing as much as he can to leave the room, all useless. As soon as another person enters the room, he can leave, which solves the mystery.
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Old 2010-04-23, 19:04   Link #8911
Judoh
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Well regarding the key I can't help, but think this is important.
Spoiler for not a closed room:


and I'm wondering why this is the hint about Sakutaro we were given

Spoiler for Sakutarou:
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Old 2010-04-23, 19:08   Link #8912
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
So our hint is Sakutaro is fluffy delicious and cute. What does that mean? He's edible? Sakutaro bentos anyone?
He's also squishy. Compressible to a very low volume?
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This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
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(updated 2010-08-24)
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Old 2010-04-23, 19:11   Link #8913
chronotrig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
and I'm wondering why this is the hint about Sakutaro we were given

Spoiler for Sakutarou:
Well, in my theory, "furniture" technically refers to a sort of imagined doll. It is actually possible for kids to play with dolls without being mentally deranged, and even an adult could do it as part of some kind of therapy or if he had a gun put to his head. If you're intentionally imagining that a fictional person exists for a specific purpose, you can still function normally and be intelligent. And if religion or a belief system gets involved, then you have your purpose.

Again, that gives a reason for why Sakutaro is at all relevant to the story.
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Old 2010-04-23, 19:14   Link #8914
Judoh
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Really all that does is make a useful idea out of his character. It doesn't tell us the answer about what he really is and how he could be revived. Is he a stuffed animal or not? And does he actually get revived? if so how?
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Old 2010-04-23, 19:18   Link #8915
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Really all that does is make a useful idea out of his character. It doesn't tell us the answer about what he really is and how he could be revived. Is he a stuffed animal or not? And does he actually get revived? if so how?
Well, it's the idea behind his character that Battler would presumably be thinking about in that scene, unless the physical stuffed animal has something to do with the murders. The particular Sakutaro scene is interesting too, since that literally was Ange playing with dolls in her head as she tried to study for the test.

Ange was using Sakutaro and the stakes as a way to kill time.

As for how he can be revived, that's probably because of the "Sakutaro" Ange seems to have found in 1998. How it got there may or may not be important.
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Old 2010-04-23, 19:20   Link #8916
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
He's also squishy. Compressible to a very low volume?
Maybe he's stuffed with something else instead of cotton that would make him squishier than ususal? For example what if Sakutarou had a zipper Maria could open where she could hide her candy stash? Jelly beans maybe?
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Old 2010-04-23, 20:11   Link #8917
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
See, that's the problem. Are you absolutely sure that you understand everything about Shkanon and all of the evidence for it? 100% sure without a doubt? Unless you are, it won't hurt to go back through the games and look for more.
Again, I've seen all the evidence for and against, most of which you've presented. It really doesn't impress me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
And when you brought up DID, that pretty much showed that you hadn't understood all of the Shkanon theories, so there probably is something you could learn if you looked.
Your theory is basically non-pathological DID, dude. Furthermore, any Shkanon theory that takes into account all the evidence for it will have to determine that Kanon doesn't actually exist... which pretty much automatically means some form of multiple personalities, and I'd put it to you that there exists no reason for Shannon to dress up as a boy unless she is delusional in some way.
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Old 2010-04-23, 20:18   Link #8918
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Clever. But how do you make that work with this statement?

<snip>

if your theory is correct then Battler's method of escape entails being "rescued" by a person who then gets unintentionally killed by the ones that check the room.

how do you take this key and use it to explain stuff from previous episodes?
The key is "how Battler escaped the room," not "how Kanon vanished." Kanon's disappearance is a sideshow to how he got out of cousins' room in the first place (Shkannon or Kanonzo). At least, that's how I see it. And I think it's more of a key to people's behavior than to any of the locked rooms.
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Old 2010-04-23, 20:28   Link #8919
chronotrig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Your theory is basically non-pathological DID, dude. Furthermore, any Shkanon theory that takes into account all the evidence for it will have to determine that Kanon doesn't actually exist... which pretty much automatically means some form of multiple personalities, and I'd put it to you that there exists no reason for Shannon to dress up as a boy unless she is delusional in some way.
No, it isn't DID. Look, you're both saying that it doesn't describe DID accurately and that it is DID. Is DID the only reason for why someone would dress up as another person? It's definitely not the reason I proposed in my theory.

That blue text is not true. There are several reasons for why "Kanon" might have been created, though some less credible than others. I have one particular reason in mind that I haven't yet discussed with anyone except Renall, and he seemed to agree with me at the time. I can put it forward now if you want, but the trail of the conversation seems to have shifted.
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Old 2010-04-23, 20:30   Link #8920
Judoh
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It'd be better if you sent a pm

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-04-23 at 20:43.
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