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Old 2010-04-24, 01:23   Link #8941
Marion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Actually, I thought their father was Battler for some reason. In much the same way that Moetrice kept calling him 'Father,' much to his discomfort. 8)

Logically speaking, I'd have to think it was Kinzo but it felt like who they meant as 'Father' is really the person that either gave them reason to live or 'caused' them to come into being.

So it made sense why Moetrice called Battler 'Father,' both in the idea that she was born in EP6 and the original Beatrice was also born because of Battler. So I thought maybe Shannon and Kanon too.

EDIT: Oh, not only that but their references about the Master of the Island being 19 years old, I thought that too was Battler. And so maybe Kanon coming to rescue Battler is something that can only happen for him. And no one else.

EDIT #2: Since everything else seems to be about Battler. The murders, the sin, why everyone dies... geez.
Battler being the father is impossible unless he was able to procreate with a woman at the age of 3 Please lets not go down that improbable route of crazy.

Moetrice was made by Battler and she called him "Father'. So basically the fact that Battler was considered her father is directly tied to the fact he created her. Since its stated in EP 2 TIPs that Shannon and Kanon were both created by Kinzo as furniture, calling him their 'father' makes sense within the same context.
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Old 2010-04-24, 01:40   Link #8942
Kylon99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Battler being the father is impossible unless he was able to procreate with a woman at the age of 3 Please lets not go down that improbable route of crazy.
No. Like I was saying, I don't mean a biological 'Father.' I mean a metaphorical 'Father.' 'Father' because he was the origin or cause and they were the effect. See below for more details:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Moetrice was made by Battler and she called him "Father'. So basically the fact that Battler was considered her father is directly tied to the fact he created her. Since its stated in EP 2 TIPs that Shannon and Kanon were both created by Kinzo as furniture, calling him their 'father' makes sense within the same context.
Well the TIPs that say that are from the meta level where there's a Kinzo, Genji, Shannon and Kanon as well. Technically speaking, Genji should call Kinzo 'Father' as well since it says Kinzo made him as well. But I doubt all three would call Kinzo, 'Father' in a biological sense. This is on the meta level though for EP2. These three servants don't appear on the metal-level TIPs again.

If we go by EP2 TIPs then then Kinzo is probably not their real father in a sense. Adoption would make sense, and for Genji it might have been something similar. (Guardian and ward?) But... I wonder if Battler can still fit in there. It depends on when Shannon started working on the island.

Let me look at Oliver's timeline.

EDIT: If Battler influenced Shannon then it would be somewhere back in 1976 when he was... 8 years old. And she was, what...7? Hmmm... not really very convincing.

By the way, Oliver, I thought Kanon was around 16 years old? One or two years younger than Shannon, right?
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Old 2010-04-24, 01:45   Link #8943
chronotrig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Realus View Post
When Kanon is comforting Shannon and cursing Runon and Natsuhi in the beginning, Shannon mentions how Kanon shouldn't skip out on his work, or he'll get in trouble too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Realus View Post
2) If on that day, Shannon and Kanon aren't both on duty together, what's happening?
- Magic Scene, null most facts
- Shannon is pretending her Kanon personality is there for some reason, and has work to do himself? I'm assuming her turning down Kanon's help is a personification of some feeling? What would it be?
- Kanon is real, but died some time (Presumably, in Jessica's room). So for the Oct 4th, Shannon for whatever reason helps keep Kanon's image alive?
- ??? (Other, something I'm not thinking of)
Well, the first answer that comes to mind for me is that it was part of the narrative. Assuming that Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice are characters that Sayo is imagining, she intentionally planned out a meeting between Shannon and Beatrice, one that would eventually lead to Shannon being freed from her "furniture" restriction. To make the impact of that meeting stronger, it would be necessary to have Kanon out of the picture when Beatrice first arrives, then come by later to help Shannon.

However, I do think that "Kanon's work" is interesting. He says something along the lines of "It's a filthy job. My soul was corrupted long ago." I wonder if that doesn't have some meaning, beyond just being called furniture...well, I do have a theory for that too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Realus View Post
1) If Shannon and Kanon are in fact there on that day together, I wouldn't be surprised if they were together on other days as well. (Hence Genji, Kumasawa, Gohda, Kinzo [When alive], Natsuhi, Krauss, Jessica, and possibly Nanjo all had opportunities to see them together.)
I don't know how often Kinzo/Genji/Natsuhi/Krauss would assign Shannon and Kanon to be on duty together at the same time. But I'm sure it's enough that at least some of them should already know they are 2 people.
Given the information we've built up by EP6, I think it's very unlikely that Genji and Kumasawa don't know about Shkanon, if it's true. Kinzo would have to know, and it's most likely that he's the person responsible for the disguises in the first place (read the Ura character tips from EP2...but wait for the next English patch if you can't read Japanese. That's one of the things getting fixed since it sounds important now). Depending on the timing, more than half of the people on the island might know about the secret and be capable of hiding it from the others.
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Old 2010-04-24, 01:50   Link #8944
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
By the way, Oliver, I thought Kanon was around 16 years old? One or two years younger than Shannon, right?
The only specific statement about Kanon's age is in Ep1 where Jessica says 'he's two years younger than us', meaning herself and Battler. Both of them are 18 within a possible span under a year.

Shannon does not get a specific statement like that that I remember, but the calculations from her 'I was a middle schooler' opening scene in Ep2 also end up settling on 16 years old, though with a higher error margin (which isn't actually reflected in my timeline data as I need to recalculate it and re-assemble the hints from my notes again).
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Old 2010-04-24, 01:59   Link #8945
Kylon99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
The only specific statement about Kanon's age is in Ep1 where Jessica says 'he's two years younger than us', meaning herself and Battler. Both of them are 18 within a possible span under a year.
Hmm... for some reason, I ended up thinking Shannon was 18 like Jessica and Battler. But I don't remember from where and it may have just been a, "like us" thing like you said.

Last edited by Kylon99; 2010-04-24 at 04:13.
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Old 2010-04-24, 02:05   Link #8946
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Hmm... for some reason, I ended up thinking Shannon was 18 like Jessica and Battler.
I'm actually not certain about Jessica's age or George's age, based on the following logic:
  • George is 23 years old.
  • Jessica is 18 years old, and Natsuhi was unable to get pregnant for 12 years.
  • Eva is 2 years younger than Krauss.
  • The idea to hijack heirship came to Eva six months after Natsuhi and Krauss were married, and the resulting marriage and birth of George is said to have happened 'soon'.

I don't know any people who can say that '7 years' is 'soon'.

If it is not 'soon' either Jessica has to be younger or George has to be older.

EDIT: Or the non-pregnancy period has to be shorter, but it's repeated so often that it actually can't be. Jessica's age, however, is not repeated quite as often, nor is George's.
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Last edited by Oliver; 2010-04-24 at 02:17. Reason: meh, I'm starting to make silly mistakes.
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Old 2010-04-24, 02:20   Link #8947
Bluemail
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Honestly, I don't think it needs to be revealed in text. Whether it be said in red or even by Rudolf. I mean because seriously can we just not conclude the most logical answer -- there are so many hints that Kyrie is his mother that it isn't funny. In EP 6 she even says her and Asumu were in the exact same hospital when delivering, IIRC.

As for Shannon and Kanon's 'father' I'm pretty sure they were referring to Kinzo, since he's the one who 'created' them as furniture in a way. If that's the case I don't think the mother is important, since they were supposedly orphans and all.

Although I dearly hope that if Kinzo is the 'father' then its only in a non-biological way. I seriously don't want to be told that Shkannon is true AND they're related to the two people they have been paired up with romantically since EP 1
Again, I don't know much of EP6, but couldn't Shannon's mother be Asumu also? Because we know our Battler isn't Asumu's son, so he's supposedly Kyrie's. They switched the babies and sent Asumu's child (another Ushiromiya Battler) to the Fukuin house. Probably to take place of the dead boy who fell from the cliff. Well in any case that would make Rudolf the father. He might have wanted Kyrie's child instead of Asumu's. Shannon and Kanon porbably respected Kinzo like a father, he's the one who funds the orphanage and took them to work on the island. I think he's never been evil to them
What would Battler think, if he could get to know that Kyrie was her actual mother and he still kind of resisted her. That must have made Kyrie feel bad, even though it was really Rudolf Battler was going against.
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Old 2010-04-24, 02:36   Link #8948
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
I'm actually not certain about Jessica's age or George's age, based on the following logic:
  • George is 23 years old.
  • Jessica is 18 years old, and Natsuhi was unable to get pregnant for 12 years.
  • Eva is 2 years younger than Krauss.
  • The idea to hijack heirship came to Eva six months after Natsuhi and Krauss were married, and the resulting marriage and birth of George is said to have happened 'soon'.

I don't know any people who can say that '7 years' is 'soon'.

If it is not 'soon' either Jessica has to be younger or George has to be older.

EDIT: Or the non-pregnancy period has to be shorter, but it's repeated so often that it actually can't be. Jessica's age, however, is not repeated quite as often, nor is George's.
How old is Natsuhi again? I think Eva is in her fifties, but I'm not sure about Natsuhi.

also George is 23. Jessica would be born 5-6 years later than George not 7. If he was 25 maybe she would be born 7 years later than him, but he's not.
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Old 2010-04-24, 02:58   Link #8949
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
also George is 23. Jessica would be born 5-6 years later than George not 7. If he was 25 maybe she would be born 7 years later than him, but he's not.
18+12=30. => Krauss married Natsuhi 30 years ago. (not counting the 9 months of pregnancy here) Minimum possible age for Natsuhi is 46. (16 is the minimal marital age at the time). But:

30-23 = 7 => George was born when Krauss' and Natsuhi's marriage was seven years in.

Deduct 6 months (for Eva getting the idea) and even 9 more months (for pregnancy) and you still are left with around 6 years that it took Eva to start her own pregnancy.

Even assuming that she spent all this time looking for a potential Hideyoshi (which I doubt, text indirectly implies she actually may have married earlier than Krauss) or waited to be absolutely sure he got into the family register before getting pregnant (which, seeing Battler jumping back and forth I also doubt, she could do that later) it still remains an oddly extensive delay for someone who plans to have her child trump over someone else's child who's not yet born for a medically unknown reason. If the reason is unknown, you should assume the probability rises with time in this case.
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Old 2010-04-24, 05:04   Link #8950
Kitsu
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Quote:
Even assuming that she spent all this time looking for a potential Hideyoshi (which I doubt, text indirectly implies she actually may have married earlier than Krauss)
IIRC it actually implies the opposite. She married after Krauss wasn't able to produce an heir and therefore was able to enter Hideyoshi into the family register. She was able to convince Kinzo because Krauss and Natsuhi just couldn't get an heir and Kinzo started to worry that they never will.

Otherwise I agree that the age of some of the youngsters in Umineko shouldn't be trusted that much. Afterall at least one of them has to be 19 as that is the age of the true master of the world or something.
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Old 2010-04-24, 05:10   Link #8951
Judoh
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I think I've found a way to explain some of the mysteries in a way I think makes sense. It explains the noise without any particular person being central to the mysteries. At this point I'm trying to find some importance in the "rescuer idea" while also putting some importance on Shannon and Kanon without them being flat out insane.

Spoiler for my theory:
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Old 2010-04-24, 05:44   Link #8952
cmos
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Shannon is 16. From ep1:
Quote:
"Yes, I've had the pleasure of serving this household for ten years."
She's a long-term servant who's served here since she was six years old.
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Old 2010-04-24, 06:44   Link #8953
DgBarca
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It's Sakutarou time !

Spoiler for Sakutarou:


Also, there is some things that completely make me feel "??" like :
ROSA
and
Human ?

We need more ROSA-Beatrice, but then EP2 is a mindfuck.
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Old 2010-04-24, 08:56   Link #8954
Oliver
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Originally Posted by cmos View Post
Shannon is 16. From ep1:
Yes. But the margin of error on that is wider than on 'he is two years younger than us'. I.e. she actually can be 17 and both those statements could still be true, if first she reached 6 years of age, 7 months after her birthday was selected to work, and 10 years and 7 months later she says she 'worked for ten years'.
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Old 2010-04-24, 09:58   Link #8955
Ibuki Aihara
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Hi there, I'm pretty much new to this thread. I'd really want to read all the past posts but the 447 pages are kinda time consuming, and time isn't something I have right now.

If this has been pointed out already, I'm really sorry. Here I go

There are no more than 18 people on this island
- This was first said after the First Twilight of the second game. Just merely pointing it out at this time.

Before now, I have proclaimed that no more than 18 humans exist on this island.
I will lower that by one for Kinzo!!
No more than 17 humans exist on this island!!
- This was said in the forth game. Why in pray tell did they subtract the number of humans in the island if the person was dead in every arc? Even if a person dies, they're still considered human, right? Or are they? :stumped:

Nice to meet you, hello! I am Furudo Erika, a detective!! I may be an uninvited guest, but please welcome me!! I am the visitor, the eighteenth human on Rokkenjima!!
We're very sorry, but even if we welcome you, the number of people is seventeen.
- This was said in the sixth game. Again, the number was decreased despite another human corpse being on the island.

My blue truth: As the number of Twilights pass, the "number of humans" decrease.
- Which means there really isn't a 18th person X but the culprit could actually be counted within the 17 as the numbers decrease.

What do you guys thinks?
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Last edited by Ibuki Aihara; 2010-04-24 at 10:48.
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Old 2010-04-24, 11:04   Link #8956
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
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You forgot

In short, this 18th person X does not exist!!
This applies to all games!!!


said in EP4.
These reds should make clear at the very least that no 18th person has ever existed.

the other red in EP5 is more open to interpretations

We're very sorry, but even if we welcome you, the number of people is seventeen.

it's more like:

"sorry but even counting you that's 17"

so it's a direct continuation of Erika's statement which imho leaves no doubts that they are correcting her (although you aren't supposed to be able to correct a red statement...)

Anyway the fact that they say "sorry" at the very least implies that Beato and Battler are telling Erika that she's wrong. Else, what are they sorry for? It's not like Erika was stating that there were 18 people alive right at that time. And even if that was the trick, with 6 people confirmed dead, Beato and Battler shouldn't be able to say that "there are 17 people alive".

It has also been speculated that such a climatic situation would be really trivialized if the "killer sentence" that ends EP6 was just dirty trick. Plus Beato and Battler would be real dicks if they decided to tell Erika a deceiving statement just before giving her the finishing blow. You usually tell the truth to enemies that are about to die.
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Old 2010-04-24, 12:28   Link #8957
ameskitty
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Not to mention that it would also ruin the "I, the Witch of Truth, must realize the truth about myself" monologue right before that and how she seemed to know that she was going to get a shot to the head. If it was a dirty trick she probably wouldn't be saying stuff like that in preparation.

Actually, that monologue doesn't make a lot of sense in the case of Shkanon, because not only do you think she would've figured it out were that the case (unless Bern was tricking her own piece), but also if the count decrease is somehow due to something about the "truth about herself", where's the room for less than 17 people when Shkanon also takes effect? Unless Erika's actually Kanon or something strange like that. (because we all know that Sayo needs more personalities, heh)
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Old 2010-04-24, 12:35   Link #8958
SeagullCrazy
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So how many solutions to that riddle have we come up with so far?
  • Shannon and Kanon are the same person, plus Erika is 17
  • Erika is actually one of the other 17 on the island
  • Both of the two above are true, leaving room for 17th Person X
  • The number system used to count people starts at 0
  • The number system used to count people is not decimal
  • There were only 17 people on Rokkenjima-prime, even if Erika is a piece
  • There were 17 people after the first twilight so there was room for more people
  • Battler falls off the boat, and the rescued "Battler" is really Jessica, which is 17 people
  • "Furniture" don't count as humans, so there is room for 3 extra people
  • Battler doesn't exist and is only a "personality"
Any others I forgot?

Last edited by SeagullCrazy; 2010-05-25 at 20:39. Reason: adding even more solutions I forgot
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Old 2010-04-24, 12:38   Link #8959
Jan-Poo
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there the theory that both shkanon and ghosterika are true, leaving an open spot for an X person (or Kinzo...).
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Old 2010-04-24, 12:45   Link #8960
Oliver
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Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
So how many solutions to that riddle have we come up with so far?
  • The number system used to count people starts at 0
Any others I forgot?
You forgot my 'the number system used to write numbers in red is not decimal'. Which is distinct from 'starts at 0' because it is actually a correct answer, even if obviously not the right one.
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