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Old 2010-04-24, 19:24   Link #9001
Shiro Kaisen
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Well, I don't mind giving Shkannon a chance, but like Ryukishi keeps saying, sometimes we fall for the first obvious trap and stop thinking further. So far the discussion has focussed on whether it is true or not, and only Judoh's come with an alternate theory on what else it could be.

I'm all for giving it a chance, but not for us to stop thinking.
An alternate theory?

Six years ago, a young Battler told Shannon he would save her riding on a white horse. Battler never returned the next family conference. Shannon was heartbroken, because she, being a young girl, believed she could escape the island and become "human." As a result, to shield her from her sadness, "Beatrice" was born--an alternate personality which personifies Shannon's longing to escape her life on Rokkenjima and be with Battler. Shannon eventually realized that she was being silly, and got over Battler and fell in love with George. Beatrice did not. Thus, Shannontrice was born. Kanon, meanwhile, is his own person and Shannon's friend. The two form a close relationship, but Kanon has witnessed Shannon's Beatrice personality and is distrustful of "her." "Beatrice" and Kanon come into conflict once a game, almost always ending with "Beatrice's" victory.

Meanwhile, Ushiromiya Kyrie orchestrates the fake death plot in an attempt to make Battler the head of the family, as a way to procure the money necessary for Rudolf and to relieve the pressure her family imposes on her. When Shannontrice comes into conflict with this plot, the two "factions" clash.
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Old 2010-04-24, 19:26   Link #9002
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Well, I don't mind giving Shkannon a chance, but like Ryukishi keeps saying, sometimes we fall for the first obvious trap and stop thinking further. So far the discussion has focussed on whether it is true or not, and only Judoh's come with an alternate theory on what else it could be.

I'm all for giving it a chance, but not for us to stop thinking.
Yes, of course.

And I think Ryuukishi's interview tells us something else too. If we try some chessboard thinking, it's very unlikely that Shkanon being the culprit is the actual full and final answer (just my own opinion obviously). In fact, if you try to apply pretty much any Shkanontrice=culprit theory, you'll find that it's nearly impossible to match it to every single one of the games. So even as confident as I personally am that Shkanontrice is true, I'm even more confident that it's not the final answer.
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Old 2010-04-24, 19:27   Link #9003
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Well, I don't mind giving Shkannon a chance, but like Ryukishi keeps saying, sometimes we fall for the first obvious trap and stop thinking further. So far the discussion has focussed on whether it is true or not, and only Judoh's come with an alternate theory on what else it could be.

I'm all for giving it a chance, but not for us to stop thinking.
Well I don't think that's wrong. And ryukishi seems to think it that way. You read his comparison. He's comparing the ones who got the truth as people getting an ultrare item in a mmorpg, and he believes those are entitled to keep the exclusive of such a rare item until the end.
Which means he doesn't really want for those that didn't get the truth to forcefully rectify their mind, they need to earn it, by themselves.

Now it's only a matter of who got the ultrarare item and who got the dummy one.
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Old 2010-04-24, 19:30   Link #9004
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Renall...not only does your post make absolutely no sense, but you somehow managed to ignore what I said right there in your quote.
Or is that more misleading information...?

There's a point to it, if you care to look. It's a metaphor.
Quote:
Of course, this part of the post was made under the assumption that Shkanon is part of the answer, which still isn't set in stone (and I mentioned this earlier in the post). Still, Ryuukishi has gotten pretty close to that in his interview, so it's only reasonable to prepare yourself for the possibility.
It's exactly as reasonable to prepare yourself for the exact opposite. However, you will not even entertain non-Shkanon as a thought exercise. I could ask you to do exactly the same thing, and you may recall that I have actually played devil's advocate for Shkanon at times even though I completely reject it as ridiculous. Why don't you try attacking Shkanon? You've got the most evidence collected for it, surely you can find the cracks in the theory better than anyone.
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Old 2010-04-24, 19:35   Link #9005
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If shkanon happens to be false that would mean I have totally misunderstood Ryukishi. That would be a major shock for me... I'm not sure I'm totally prepared for that...
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Old 2010-04-24, 19:37   Link #9006
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
However, you will not even entertain non-Shkanon as a thought exercise.
Try me. As I've said in my last three posts and the big one you commented on, I'm fully aware that Shkanon isn't set in stone yet. Show me a non-Shkanon theory and I'll consider it (I'm speaking generally, not just to Renall). That's more or less the point of this thread, after all.
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Old 2010-04-24, 19:38   Link #9007
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
If shkanon happens to be false that would mean I have totally misunderstood Ryukishi. That would be a major shock for me... I'm not sure I'm totally prepared for that...
I'm curious, why? What makes you think that he absolutely plans to make it the answer and not - to use the most obvious counter-theory - a deliberate piece of misinformation? The line between the two is incredibly fine at this point; it is possible to very easily interpret either theory either way. Why would your "read" of the author be so drastically shaken by that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig
Try me. As I've said in my last three posts and the big one you commented on, I'm fully aware that Shkanon isn't set in stone yet. Show me a non-Shkanon theory and I'll consider it (I'm speaking generally, not just to Renall). That's more or less the point of this thread, after all.
We know your theory. Therefore, the next time someone proposes some kind of non-Shkanon idea, run with it. Try to take it as far as you can. Assume it's true and run it into the ground. You basically ignore anything that isn't either directly applicable to your theory (in support or attack), so pick the next crackpot thing someone says about some completely Shannon/Kanon-inconsequential mystery and try to defend it.
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Old 2010-04-24, 19:38   Link #9008
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
And if that happens Kanon and Shannon will most definitely have a major role in the plot. That is guaranteed. I'm thinking that Shannon and Kanon are being threatened into doing something they wouldn't normally do at the other conferences.
When you get to the part of the duel and the music is that played, 'Alive,' don't you get the feeling that both their stories are coming to a close? I had no clue what was going on at ALL and yet I can 'feel' the arc coming to a conclusion. For that I'd have to give a thumbs up at Ryukishi as a writer.

So I'm guessing, in the same way that Maria's arc closed with Sakutarou coming back to life is that we won't really have any more story developments with them though. But maybe what they'll get, and almost everyone else will as well, will be some kind of reveal...

In fact if you look at EP6 the character development seemed more on the meta-level now. And it may be Bernkastel who may get the character development with EP7. Once again the blue haired girl takes over as the main protagonist. And Battler is cast into the same hell Keiichi was thrown into. Supporting character. 8)



Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen View Post
An alternate theory?

...but Kanon has witnessed Shannon's Beatrice personality and is distrustful of "her." "Beatrice" and Kanon come into conflict once a game, almost always ending with "Beatrice's" victory.
Ok.. this theory helps with the duel. But we should be after the key Ryukishi mentioned, I think. How was Kanon able to save Battler and then disappear? If we can grasp this then we can apply it to all episodes. And possibly the key will unlock more than just the closed rooms.


Anyways, I'm also trying to think of something but it's not like I can come up with something myself. It's best to borrow everyone else's brain.

Last edited by Kylon99; 2010-04-24 at 19:53.
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Old 2010-04-24, 19:40   Link #9009
Shiro Kaisen
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Try me. As I've said in my last three posts and the big one you commented on, I'm fully aware that Shkanon isn't set in stone yet. Show me a non-Shkanon theory and I'll consider it (I'm speaking generally, not just to Renall). That's more or less the point of this thread, after all.
Shannontrice, without Kanon being a personality. Takes all the magic scenes that are used for Shkanontrice interaction like Episodes 2 and 4 and offers an alternate interpretation. What about that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99
Ok.. this theory helps with the duel. But we should be after the key Ryukishi mentioned, I think. How was Kanon able to save Battler and then disappear? If we can grasp this then we can apply it to all episodes. And possibly the key will unlock more than just the closed rooms.
This is the only spot I'm stuck. Because this theory also hinges on the premise that Erika Furudo dies immediately upon washing up on Rokkenjima.

The only idea I have so far is this, but I'm still working on it.

When Kanon opened the room to save Battler, he went inside as the red text stated. As he exited the room, he inflicted a mortal wound on Kanon. He did so because he had expected Kyrie to come rescue him, and he knew that if she hadn't that means something was wrong. Kanon died within the room, after setting the chain. Therefore, Kanon doesn't exist in the room. His corpse does.

Yeah, it's a major stretch, but I'll think of something better. There's also "Kanon found the ring, which gave Kanon the title of "Kinzo," thereby excluding him from Battler's red."
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Old 2010-04-24, 19:40   Link #9010
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
If shkanon happens to be false that would mean I have totally misunderstood Ryukishi. That would be a major shock for me... I'm not sure I'm totally prepared for that...
Really think about it for a second. Why so much focus on these two characters? If Shkanon is wrong that doesn't automatically mean the emphasis on them is unfounded. They can still be important to the plot and not be the same person. So what we should be thinking about is if Shkanon is not true and another solution works what exactly are Kanon and Shannon up to?

You don't have to completely give up on the theory, but there should be ways to attack it and still make the individual people important.
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Old 2010-04-24, 19:42   Link #9011
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Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen View Post
Shannontrice, without Kanon being a personality. Takes all the magic scenes that are used for Shkanontrice interaction like Episodes 2 and 4 and offers an alternate interpretation. What about that?
How about a double/multitrice theory, with a possibility of Kanon and Shannon being separate and distinct Beatrices? Would most of the evidence of Shkanon not also support that, minus sharing an actual body with one another?
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Old 2010-04-24, 19:44   Link #9012
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen View Post
Shannontrice, without Kanon being a personality. Takes all the magic scenes that are used for Shkanontrice interaction like Episodes 2 and 4 and offers an alternate interpretation. What about that?
That actually does work to cover the majority of the things covered by the Shkanontrice theory, but it needs some fleshing out. For example, who has the ring of the head at the time of the crime? EP5 seems to strongly hint that either Kanon or Shannon had it (though not outright proof, of course), but which one was it and why?
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Old 2010-04-24, 19:45   Link #9013
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Really think about it for a second. Why so much focus on these two characters? If Shkanon is wrong that doesn't automatically mean the emphasis on them is unfounded. They can still be important to the plot and not be the same person. So what we should be thinking about is if Shkanon is not true and another solution works what exactly are Kanon and Shannon up to?

You don't have to completely give up on the theory, but there should be ways to attack it and still make the individual people important.
I don't think you get it Judoh, else you wouldn't say "another solution works", this is not a matter of finding a theory to get around a red, this a matter of narrative consistency.
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Old 2010-04-24, 19:46   Link #9014
Shiro Kaisen
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
That actually does work to cover the majority of the things covered by the Shkanontrice theory, but it needs some fleshing out. For example, who has the ring of the head at the time of the crime? EP5 seems to strongly hint that either Kanon or Shannon had it (though not outright proof, of course), but which one was it and why?
Then, Kanon possessed the ring of Kinzo, and therefore is excluded from Battler's red text in Ep. 6 as well!
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Old 2010-04-24, 19:46   Link #9015
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I don't think you get it Judoh, else you wouldn't say "another solution works", this is not a matter of finding a theory to get around a red, this a matter of narrative consistency.
However, narrative consistency can be gotten around with a misguided author. For example, if meta-Beatrice thinks that Shkanon is true but it actually isn't.
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Old 2010-04-24, 19:47   Link #9016
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
That actually does work to cover the majority of the things covered by the Shkanontrice theory, but it needs some fleshing out. For example, who has the ring of the head at the time of the crime? EP5 seems to strongly hint that either Kanon or Shannon had it (though not outright proof, of course), but which one was it and why?
Shannon had it. She was going to give it to George anyway or vice versa, but they never had a proposal scene in that episode. George didn't even have a chance.
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Old 2010-04-24, 19:48   Link #9017
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen View Post
Then, Kanon possessed the ring of Kinzo, and therefore is excluded from Battler's red text in Ep. 6 as well!
I've always had some trouble with that, actually. I do think Kanon being Kinzo's heir is an incredibly interesting theory, but I don't see why becoming the heir to the head would actually give you the personal name of the head. There needs to be some explanation for that.
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Old 2010-04-24, 19:51   Link #9018
Shiro Kaisen
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How about a double/multitrice theory, with a possibility of Kanon and Shannon being separate and distinct Beatrices? Would most of the evidence of Shkanon not also support that, minus sharing an actual body with one another?

See, I take issue with that in that Kanon always opposes Beatrice directly in every episode in which the two come into direct contact. Therefore, I can't see a reason for him to take on her persona.
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Old 2010-04-24, 19:52   Link #9019
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However, narrative consistency can be gotten around with a misguided author. For example, if meta-Beatrice thinks that Shkanon is true but it actually isn't.
Is that not a possibility one direction or the other? For the sake of ep6, we have to ask both whether Shkanon was even the theory being considered, and if it was, who believed it.

For instance, ask which of these people believed Shkanon was true, whether or not it was:
  • Ep1-4 Meta-Beatrice.
  • Battler.
  • Erika.
  • Bern and Lambda.
  • Ep6 Meta-Beatrice.
Which ones would have to believe the opposite of the others for the Logic Error to function?
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Old 2010-04-24, 19:52   Link #9020
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I don't think you get it Judoh, else you wouldn't say "another solution works", this is not a matter of finding a theory to get around a red, this a matter of narrative consistency.
Narrative consistency? What part of Chiru is consistent?


Episode 6 totally flip flopped the position people were in on Shkanon in episode 5 when they saw Erika's meta adventures. If you've seen my theory that has some narrative consistency between both episodes in Chiru.
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