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Old 2010-04-24, 19:52   Link #9021
Kylon99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
In fact, if you try to apply pretty much any Shkanontrice=culprit theory, you'll find that it's nearly impossible to match it to every single one of the games. So even as confident as I personally am that Shkanontrice is true, I'm even more confident that it's not the final answer.
Yah, I think that's why most people are resisting. If it were a key, it should fit into a bunch of locks from episodes 1-4. We just take it back with us and it just keeps working. Like the fakery idea, which I know we haven't all accepted but it at least feels right. Mind you he pretty much gave us this one in EP6, "because they all chose nice comfortable rooms."

Not that I'm sure Shkannon is false but it doesn't seem usable as a key, as you've said.

Anyways, this idea should work for... I think... these cases:

- EP1 Eva and Hideyoshi murder, chain lock room
- EP5 Hideyoshi murder, chain lock room
- EP6 Battler escape, chain lock room

Were there others? My memory fails me at this moment..

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
He's comparing the ones who got the truth as people getting an ultrare item in a mmorpg, and he believes those are entitled to keep the exclusive of such a rare item until the end.
Which means he doesn't really want for those that didn't get the truth to forcefully rectify their mind, they need to earn it, by themselves.
Can I help it if I'm greedy? But, if only one of us gets this item, it can spread to a large majority of us on here. Unlike MMO's where you get banned for doing that. 8)

And it just feels like we're so close, in more ways than one. One in that we're close to the answer. And two in that we're close to being *given* then answer... I know he said he wouldn't but then he still might leave out more hints and once you get those hints, getting the answer won't feel as good. 8)

Come to think of it, even that interview was a hint. ;__;
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Old 2010-04-24, 20:00   Link #9022
Renall
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Any theory in which Shannon and Kanon are separate people makes mysteries more solvable. This is simply a fact of logistics.
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Old 2010-04-24, 20:04   Link #9023
Shiro Kaisen
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Any theory in which Shannon and Kanon are separate people makes mysteries more solvable. This is simply a fact of logistics.
And it also avoids the nasty "pieces vs people" debate we've had over and over again. Because if the only alt. personality is Beatrice, she doesn't have to count towards any total.
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Old 2010-04-24, 20:04   Link #9024
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Not that I'm sure Shkannon is false but it doesn't seem usable as a key, as you've said.
Well, I would disagree here. Ryuukishi didn't say that the key would solve all the closed rooms, just that it "wouldn't be unexpected" for you to solve all closed rooms if you truly understand how Battler escaped.

If you really think about it, it's certainly possible, and not even too difficult, to at least find a solution to all the closed rooms in EP1-4 using just Shkanontrice. Kanon and Shannon are the only two people who could possibly have faked deaths in EP1 and EP2 (though only if we make the somewhat large assumption that Battler can tell that someone's dead by getting a good look at them). If EP3 is a faked death too, that makes everything flat out easy to explain, and EP4 has no closed rooms.

So Shkanontrice does have the potential to be the key. The problem is that solutions to some parts with just Shkanontrice have to rely on pretty shaky motives and reasons for why things happen the way they do.
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Old 2010-04-24, 20:06   Link #9025
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
However, narrative consistency can be gotten around with a misguided author. For example, if meta-Beatrice thinks that Shkanon is true but it actually isn't.
but that's very hard to believe. I mean Beatrice's got to be Shannon... then again if I were to doubt shkanon then I might as well doubt shannontrice since I think they are equally extremely probable.
Anyway if shannontrice is true then it's practically impossible for Shannon to believe she's Kanon, when she's not.

Or are you implying that meta-Beatrice is a separate entity, who doesn't share her knowledge with her vessel? That's yet another thing that I find hard to believe.

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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Narrative consistency? What part of Chiru is consistent?

Episode 6 totally flip flopped the position people were in on Shkanon in episode 5 when they saw Erika's meta adventures. If you've seen my theory that has some narrative consistency between both episodes in Chiru.
Well there are many stories inside a bigger story in umineko. the one you are referring to is a story inside a story, but that's not what I'm referring to. I'm referring about the story Ryukishi is writing.

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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Come to think of it, even that interview was a hint. ;__;
Yes it was, and yet it won't change the mind of shkanon supporters nor will change the mind of those who oppose it, exactly as he's planning.

Quote:
Any theory in which Shannon and Kanon are separate people makes mysteries more solvable. This is simply a fact of logistics.
It's your opinion Renal, not a fact. The way I see it, the theories you made to explain EP6 are a lot more complicated than shkanon (which is just one)
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Old 2010-04-24, 20:06   Link #9026
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Well, I would disagree here. Ryuukishi didn't say that the key would solve all the closed rooms, just that it "wouldn't be unexpected" for you to solve all closed rooms if you truly understand how Battler escaped.

If you really think about it, it's certainly possible, and not even too difficult, to at least find a solution to all the closed rooms in EP1-4 using just Shkanontrice. Kanon and Shannon are the only two people who could possibly have faked deaths in EP1 and EP2 (though only if we make the somewhat large assumption that Battler can tell that someone's dead by getting a good look at them). If EP3 is a faked death too, that makes everything flat out easy to explain, and EP4 has no closed rooms.

So Shkanon does have the potential to be the key.
No, it doesn't. It solves nothing that could not be solved without it and makes several closed rooms HARDER to solve with it than without it. You say "it should be possible" yet you have the multi-page Shkanon theory and you can't even offer a throwaway explanation how it could explain anything. Because it cannot. It has a null value; it neither helps nor hinders, except Seagull has reminded me that it actually can hinder several closed rooms.
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Old 2010-04-24, 20:07   Link #9027
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Couldn't we also say that Yoshida just dropped his 'Kanon' persona, so therefore Kanon didn't exist in the room Yoshida did. Isn't that the same as the whole Shakannon.
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Old 2010-04-24, 20:07   Link #9028
Shiro Kaisen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Well, I would disagree here. Ryuukishi didn't say that the key would solve all the closed rooms, just that it "wouldn't be unexpected" for you to solve all closed rooms if you truly understand how Battler escaped.
This could just mean that if you're smart enough to find that loophole, the other closed rooms are positively easy. Cause let's face it, this one's even harder than the Web.
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Old 2010-04-24, 20:08   Link #9029
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Well, I would disagree here. Ryuukishi didn't say that the key would solve all the closed rooms, just that it "wouldn't be unexpected" for you to solve all closed rooms if you truly understand how Battler escaped.

If you really think about it, it's certainly possible, and not even too difficult, to at least find a solution to all the closed rooms in EP1-4 using just Shkanontrice. Kanon and Shannon are the only two people who could possibly have faked deaths in EP1 and EP2 (though only if we make the somewhat large assumption that Battler can tell that someone's dead by getting a good look at them). If EP3 is a faked death too, that makes everything flat out easy to explain, and EP4 has no closed rooms.

So Shkanon does have the potential to be the key. The problem is that some solutions with just Shkanon have to rely on pretty shaky motives and reasons for why things happen the way they do.
That's why I listed very specific closed room murders. Murders where if a person disappeared afterwards, just like in EP6, then it would be exactly the same method. I indicated the chain locks as well but I'm not sure that's required.

I could only remember one from EP1 though... were there others in EP2-4?
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Old 2010-04-24, 20:09   Link #9030
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
That's why I listed very specific closed room murders. Murders where if a person disappeared afterwards, just like in EP6, then it would be exactly the same method. I indicated the chain locks as well but I'm not sure that's required.

I could only remember one from EP1 though... were there others in EP2-4?
There are only three closed room puzzles with a chain lock specifically mentioned and essential to the solution. Ep1's Second Twilight, Ep5's attack on Hideyoshi, and Ep6's Logic Error.
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Old 2010-04-24, 20:10   Link #9031
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No, it doesn't. It solves nothing that could not be solved without it and makes several closed rooms HARDER to solve with it than without it. You say "it should be possible" yet you have the multi-page Shkanon theory and you can't even offer a throwaway explanation how it could explain anything. Because it cannot. It has a null value; it neither helps nor hinders, except Seagull has reminded me that it actually can hinder several closed rooms.
Sorry, changed my post here. It's the "trice" part and the fact that Shkanon would prove that a disguise for a fake Shannon corpse exists (the Shannon outfit) given some sort of base that makes it possible to get through most of the problems, though not all.
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Old 2010-04-24, 20:11   Link #9032
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Sorry, changed my post here. It's the "trice" part and the fact that Shkanon would prove that a disguise for a fake Shannon corpse exists (the Shannon outfit) that makes it possible to get through most of the problems, though not all.
The ep1 chain lock is much harder with Shkanon than without. This is indisputable.

Everything else is identically solvable with separate people.
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Old 2010-04-24, 20:12   Link #9033
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
If you really think about it, it's certainly possible, and not even too difficult, to at least find a solution to all the closed rooms in EP1-4 using just Shkanontrice. Kanon and Shannon are the only two people who could possibly have faked deaths in EP1 and EP2 (though only if we make the somewhat large assumption that Battler can tell that someone's dead by getting a good look at them). If EP3 is a faked death too, that makes everything flat out easy to explain, and EP4 has no closed rooms.
No I'm sorry the theories I've seen you make on the fake deaths here just stretch logic too much to be true. Shannon could not be a mannequin and you don't even really need her to explain the end of episode 2. Since the end of the episodes is where reality degrades.

Likewise If Shannon's death is fake in episode 1 it's easier to solve if the rest of the first twilight is fake also. To get around her corpse in episode 1 you have to make a lot of assumptions.
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Old 2010-04-24, 20:14   Link #9034
Shiro Kaisen
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No I'm sorry the theories I've seen you make on the fake deaths here just stretch logic too much to be true. Shannon could not be a mannequin and you don't even really need her to explain the end of episode 2. Since the end of the episodes is where reality degrades.

Likewise If Shannon's death is fake in episode 1 it's easier to solve if the rest of the first twilight is fake also. To get around her corpse in episode 1 you have to make a lot of assumptions.
Assuming Shannon fakes her death in Episode One, and Genji covers for Shannon in Episode 2, all of the murders in the first two episodes are easily explained using nothing but Shannon and the bomb.
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Old 2010-04-24, 20:15   Link #9035
Oliver
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
That actually does work to cover the majority of the things covered by the Shkanontrice theory, but it needs some fleshing out. For example, who has the ring of the head at the time of the crime? EP5 seems to strongly hint that either Kanon or Shannon had it (though not outright proof, of course), but which one was it and why?
Actually, about the ring...

I have not seen a theory so far that would not assume that the entirety of the letters are improvised in place or at the very least, stamped and sealed on the 4th or immediately before being presented.

But they really don't have to be, like at all. In fact the head ring doesn't even have to still exist or be owned by anyone. There's a few things thing I noticed about the seal:
  • Only the first time when the seal of the head is presented on a letter it is scrutinized in any way closely, and arguments emerge on whether it's real or fake. All subsequent letters are never doubted to have come from the same source.
  • Rather rarely the same person reads more than one letter with their own eyes. They are similarly rarely seen showing letters to each other after reading, and are never seen passing them around to give people a chance to see the text and the handwriting for their own, etc.
  • Once a letter is read, it seems to completely vanish - it's not clear who has it and if it still exists at all.
  • The text of the first letter is, as far as I can see, always exactly the same and never varies. Considering all the other variations, this particular letter has to have been written prior to the start of the game.
  • The text of many other letters is rather generic and is applicable to a wide range of situations. When it isn't, it differs in vocabulary and style.

You know, if I were Kinzo planning to troll the entire family into an intellectual battle over my inheritance that may actually even happen well after my death, I'd make sure the challenge letter would be ready well beforehand and I would seal it myself. Like sealed turns in postponed chess matches, I would keep a few alternative sequences of letters hidden in a book somewhere in a sea of books, ready for whoever gets to be executing my will to use.
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Old 2010-04-24, 20:15   Link #9036
chronotrig
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No I'm sorry the theories I've seen you make on the fake deaths here just stretch logic too much to be true. Shannon could not be a mannequin and you don't even really need her to explain the end of episode 2.
Why not? If everyone who sees it isn't fooled, that doesn't hurt the theory at all.

Battler only looks at Shannon's face for an instant, and has to look away quickly, revolted. I call that a clue, since it's the only intact face in all of EP1 and 2 that he doesn't see clearly.
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Old 2010-04-24, 20:16   Link #9037
Jan-Poo
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this kind of logic doesn't work for me.

backtrack a little and think about all the assumptions you had to make in order to accept Kinzo is already dead at the time of EP3.
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Old 2010-04-24, 20:16   Link #9038
Judoh
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Assuming Shannon fakes her death in Episode One, and Genji covers for Shannon in Episode 2, all of the murders in the first two episodes are easily explained using nothing but Shannon and the bomb.
Except Natsuhi's room. Shannon is definitely dead Battler saw it. He touched her head and saw blood poor out on to floor. The only murderers you have there are Gohda and George. I chose the latter.
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Old 2010-04-24, 20:18   Link #9039
Kylon99
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Oh, I just remembered. It should also solve the idea of Kanon dying in red in EP1, 2, 3 and possibly 4 even though it seems he's not.

Actually all of this is Kanon centered, not really having that much to do with Shannon... right?
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Old 2010-04-24, 20:18   Link #9040
Judoh
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Why not? If everyone who sees it isn't fooled, that doesn't hurt the theory at all.

Battler only looks at Shannon's face for an instant, and has to look away quickly, revolted. I call that a clue, since it's the only intact face in all of EP1 and 2 that he doesn't see clearly.
Wasn't the reason Battler couldn't confirm the deaths in episode 2 because he didn't put his hand inside their stomachs? In this instance he took Beatrice's advice and touched a corpse. Don't tell me that that is not a hint that he confirmed her death.
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