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Old 2010-04-24, 22:08   Link #9061
SeagullCrazy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
This one I found interesting though:

Ladies and gentlemen, we humbly offer to state the following. Please know that neither of the seals on the cousins' room and neighboring room doors is broken.

Doesn't this leave it open for the seals to be on completely different rooms?
[Due to the seals on the doors and windows,] the sealing of the cousins' room and neighboring room is guaranteed.
A similar red to the one you mentioned. It guarantees they were sealed, but not specifically whether it was the door, window, or both that was sealed.

The neighboring room was certainly sealed, but at the time of the logic error, only the seal on the door was confirmed to be intact
So the neighboring room's door was definitely sealed.

The cousins' room was confirmed to be a closed room right up to the very end.
...Although this doesn't confirm it was a closed room due to the seal.

And something else I found strange:
That is impossible. The seals on the window were also intact. Naturally, I am referring to the time of the logic error.
Does this mean it takes more than one seal to seal a window?

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh
What I was pointing out with those reds I found in the wiki was that the first one says only Kanon entered the room, but after that it says Erika, Kanon, and Battler are the only people who entered and exited the room.
The first one said at the time Battler was rescued. So at that time, Battler was exiting the room, and Erika was already inside the room. And of course, Kanon was entering it.
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Old 2010-04-24, 22:08   Link #9062
Shiro Kaisen
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
That shouldn't matter, should it? Under Shkanon, there only ever was one body anyway, right?
That's another problem I have with it. Maybe a Shkanon supporter can clear it up. But I know that's how the whole "Kanon entered and then became Shannon, so Kanon is no longer within the closed room" thing flies...
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Old 2010-04-24, 22:12   Link #9063
Laserworm
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Quote:
What I was pointing out with those reds I found in the wiki was that the first one says only Kanon entered, but after that it says Erika, Kanon, and Battler are the only people who entered and exited.
Hmm.. that makes me think that maybe Kanon saved Battler before Erika got there. And that Erika unknowning let Kanon out. After all Beato states that Erika didn't help Battler escape, did she ever say that Erika didn't help Kanon escape?
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Old 2010-04-24, 22:13   Link #9064
Kylon99
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By the way, if you guys need to reference the red/blue/gold, TIPS, etc, in Japanese, you can go to:
http://www.umineco.info/

For example, here's the page for EP6 red (and other colors)
http://umineco.info/?%E8%B5%A4%E6%96...A9%B1%EF%BC%89

Might save you a lot of hunting through the game. In fact, it has a chapter listing and summary for the games, if you DO need to hunt through the games.
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Old 2010-04-24, 22:27   Link #9065
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
Hmm.. that makes me think that maybe Kanon saved Battler before Erika got there. And that Erika unknowning let Kanon out. After all Beato states that Erika didn't help Battler escape, did she ever say that Erika didn't help Kanon escape?
Technically speaking, that could have happened. Kanon saves Battler, Battler notices and re-seals the room. Except, in red:

I'll acknowledge it. From the time you entered the room until the logic error occured, the only ones who entered or exited the room were you, Battler, and Kanon.

And also:

I have confirmed that the guest room is perfectly sealed. The closed room has been maintained ever since Erika confirmed Battler's presence.

I assume the latter means there was no tampering with the seals.
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Old 2010-04-24, 22:33   Link #9066
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Quote:
Technically speaking, that could have happened. Kanon saves Battler, Battler notices and re-seals the room. Except, in red:

I'll acknowledge it. From the time you entered the room until the logic error occured, the only ones who entered or exited the room were you, Battler, and Kanon.

And also:

I have confirmed that the guest room is perfectly sealed. The closed room has been maintained ever since Erika confirmed Battler's presence.

I assume the latter means there was no tampering with the seals.
There has to be some way around these points because Shakannon just fiddles around with the red. 'Kanon is dead' that just meant Sayo discarded her Kanon identity. 'Shanon and Kanon are dead' That just means Sayo discarded both her servents idenitites. It just feels cheap.
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Old 2010-04-24, 22:35   Link #9067
Renall
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
Hmm.. that makes me think that maybe Kanon saved Battler before Erika got there. And that Erika unknowning let Kanon out. After all Beato states that Erika didn't help Battler escape, did she ever say that Erika didn't help Kanon escape?
I considered that but I don't believe that's actually temporally possible. I forget all the reds but they narrow the window where Battler could leave.
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Old 2010-04-24, 22:36   Link #9068
SeagullCrazy
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
There has to be some way around these points because Shakannon just fiddles around with the red. 'Kanon is dead' that just meant Sayo discarded her Kanon identity. 'Shanon and Kanon are dead' That just means Sayo discarded both her servents idenitites. It just feels cheap.
Interesting. This is why I don't like Shkanon.

No human can truly deny Shkanon because of the following: even if Shannon, Kanon, Sayo, Yoshiya, and Beatrice are all dead, there exists an Unknown Personality X that can still live on. As a result, "Shkanon" will never be declared dead.

This makes the mystery pointless because you can always argue that Personality X survived, therefore making all red text regarding deaths useless.
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Old 2010-04-24, 22:48   Link #9069
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Interesting. This is why I don't like Shkanon.

No human can truly deny Shkanon because of the following: even if Shannon, Kanon, Sayo, Yoshiya, and Beatrice are all dead, there exists an Unknown Personality X that can still live on. As a result, "Shkanon" will never be declared dead.

This makes the mystery pointless because you can always argue that Personality X survived, therefore making all red text regarding deaths useless.
I have another problem with it besides that. Regarding the logic error, and Shakannon taking Battler's place as Kanon, and then becoming Shannon. WHY? Why the heck would she save Battler as Kanon and then kill that persona? For what reason would she do that?
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Old 2010-04-24, 22:55   Link #9070
Kylon99
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You know what, I've just been through all the red/blue/gold text, with a bit of white context looking for the word 存在 . This is because of the red about Kanon:

ベッドルームに嘉音は存在しない。
客室に、嘉音は存在しない。………もちろん、クローゼット、ベッドルーム、バスルーム、この全てにおいてで ある。
Kanon does not exist inside the bedroom.
Kanon does not exist inside the guest room. ...Naturally this includes the closet, the bedroom, and the bathroom in their entirety.


So I'm trying to understand what 存在しない / does not exist means in Umineko. Because we've come up with two possibilities, that a personality died or that the person actually died. So what better way than to hunt down all the 存在 in the red text?

Well guess what... the only other person it's used for is Kinzo. There's plenty of 存在しない for Kinzo in EP5 and 6 and a bit in EP4. But nowhere else is it directly used for another person.

In the other uses, it's used for non-living nouns.. like keys, tricks. It's also used in the count of number of people (人間). But it's never used for any names other than those two.


Now, that may suggest Kinzo = Kanon theory but... that's a bit weak. What it does suggest to me though is...

1. Either Kinzo is really dead. And Kanon is really dead at the end of EP6. Therefore, 存在しない。

2. Either Kinzo is really STILL alive; only the Kinzo personality died and Kanon is really still alive, only the Kanon personality is still alive. Therefore, they both 存在しない。

Because otherwise you'd have to explain why the same use of 'exist' changes for different people. I don't believe Ryukishi would write the red so that it changes in meaning without that meaning being explicit.

Anyways, #1 is rather normal, if a bit sad. #2 though is... wow... how would you explain Kinzo still being alive? (Other than having the will to write that new U.N. Owen song, that is. )
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Old 2010-04-24, 22:55   Link #9071
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
I have another problem with it besides that. Regarding the logic error, and Shakannon taking Battler's place as Kanon, and then becoming Shannon. WHY? Why the heck would she save Battler as Kanon and then kill that persona? For what reason would she do that?
Erika can always just Kill Sayo's body.
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Old 2010-04-24, 22:58   Link #9072
Renall
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Erika can always just Kill Sayo's body.
There's no logical reason for Kanon to disappear, really, whether he's Shannon or not. Except getting killed, anyhow.
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Old 2010-04-24, 22:59   Link #9073
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Quote:
2. Either Kinzo is really STILL alive; only the Kinzo personality died and Kanon is really still alive, only the Kanon personality is still alive. Therefore, they both 存在しない。
A fake Kinzo personality lives in Natsuhi's head we were shown this in ep5.

Is that even possible?
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Old 2010-04-24, 23:01   Link #9074
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
A fake Kinzo personality lives in Natsuhi's head we were shown this in ep5.

Is that even possible?
If Natsuhi is somehow acting AS Kinzo. And/or if Natsuhi was recognized as the next Kinzo. Or if someone else is. That's one way to 'ressurect' Kinzo. So that's why some people think Kanon is Kinzo.
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Old 2010-04-24, 23:04   Link #9075
SeagullCrazy
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
A #2 though is... wow... how would you explain Kinzo still being alive? (Other than having the will to write that new U.N. Owen song, that is. )
Kinzo discards his "Kinzo" personality and becomes Personality X. Although I am not the first person to suggest that theory, I've made my point with my above post. It's possible for anyone to become another personality and escape the red text.
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Old 2010-04-24, 23:08   Link #9076
Shiro Kaisen
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Kanon was killed by Battler or committed suicide?
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Old 2010-04-24, 23:14   Link #9077
Laserworm
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EDIT: Maria has another personaity, and a twin sister. She kills people under this persona, and kills her twin sister in ep3, 4 and 5 and 6. Maria's twin sister's name is Erika XD

Quote:
So I'm trying to understand what 存在しない / does not exist means in Umineko. Because we've come up with two possibilities, that a personality died or that the person actually died. So what better way than to hunt down all the 存在 in the red text?

Well guess what... the only other person it's used for is Kinzo. There's plenty of 存在しない for Kinzo in EP5 and 6 and a bit in EP4. But nowhere else is it directly used for another person.

In the other uses, it's used for non-living nouns.. like keys, tricks. It's also used in the count of number of people (人間). But it's never used for any names other than those two.
So is it only used for Kanon those times in ep6 or is it used all the time Kanon is said in red?
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Old 2010-04-24, 23:22   Link #9078
Judoh
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Woah guys really slow down. You Don't need to make it even more complicated by creating personalities of non existent people out of thin air and all this other weird stuff. Kanon committing suicide? Maria killing her twin? Are you guys serious? I'm going to have to call Knox's 8th on that one. It wouldn't even change the count.
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Old 2010-04-24, 23:26   Link #9079
SeagullCrazy
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Woah guys really slow down. You Don't need to make it even more complicated by creating personalities of non existent people out of thin air.
That's exactly what I was going for, because it's the premise of the Shkanon theory. If we can say that Person X has multiple personalities, we can also say that Person Y has multiple personalities. Using this logic creates a ton of unrealistic theories which make little to no sense.

Unless you can provide evidence that multiple personalities are only possible for Shkanon and no one else, then my point is valid.

EDIT: Sort of like what chronotrig said. Stop attacking the Shkanon theory, and instead consider that it's true. After considering it I've found that it allows for a ton of other ridiculous theories.
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Old 2010-04-24, 23:27   Link #9080
Shiro Kaisen
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I'm just referring to the fact that "Kanon does not exist within the room" and this can be accomplished by Kanon being dead. Since Erika's the detective, she couldn't have killed him. What if Kanon killed himself, or Battler killed him? It's another possible solution...maybe...

The other personality stuff doesn't work. The evidence for Shkanon is that Shannon and Kanon are never in the same room with each other as observed by the Detective and several times within the story Shannon and Kanon have mutually exclusive happinesses or somesuch. That's enough to satisfy Knox's 8th at least.
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