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Old 2010-04-24, 23:28   Link #9081
Laserworm
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Woah guys really slow down. You Don't need to make it even more complicated by creating personalities of non existent people out of thin air and all this other weird stuff. Kanon committing suicide? Maria killing her twin? Are you guys serious? I'm going to have to call Knox's 8th on that one. It wouldn't even change the count.
My Maria twin/peronsa theory was just a joke theory. It states how kind of crazy the whole other persona thing can work. Though Maria does have another personaity it was shown. I would laugh like crazy if I found some kind of hint as to her having a twin

Kanon commiting suicide isn't a bad idea though. We took take this as a clue to it. Kanon knowning that he won't be able to leave the room. And if we say Kanon knows about the bomb going off at midnight, he might have just decided to end it early knowing he couldn't leave the room anyway.
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Old 2010-04-24, 23:31   Link #9082
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen View Post
I'm just referring to the fact that "Kanon does not exist within the room" and this can be accomplished by Kanon being dead. Since Erika's the detective, she couldn't have killed him. What if Kanon killed himself, or Battler killed him? It's another possible solution...maybe...
Knox 7, the detective may not be the culprit. However, Erika has committed several murders already. Therefore, she must not be the detective.

Incidentally, I've said this before, but: Knox 1, the culprit must be someone introduced in the early part of the story. Therefore, Erika's real identity must be someone who was introduced in the early part of the story.
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Old 2010-04-24, 23:32   Link #9083
SeagullCrazy
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Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen View Post
The other personality stuff doesn't work. The evidence for Shkanon is that Shannon and Kanon are never in the same room with each other as observed by the Detective and several times within the story Shannon and Kanon have mutually exclusive happinesses or somesuch. That's enough to satisfy Knox's 8th at least.
We never see Sayo or Yoshiya at all, in the sense that they would have different sprites. Therefore, if Sayo and Yoshiya are valid personalities, then "personalities which are not seen" = "valid personality".
Saying that Sayo and Yoshiya aren't valid destroys Shkanon completely.

So if I say Gohda has a second personality called "Magical Gohda Chef" then even if we never see this other personality, it's considered valid.


It's just a ridiculous argument, which is what I'm trying to demonstrate.

Last edited by SeagullCrazy; 2010-04-24 at 23:35. Reason: minor grammar and spelling errors
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Old 2010-04-24, 23:35   Link #9084
Judoh
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That's not how Shkanon works in all variations. Chronotrig might have to put his theory in his sig becuase I'm have trouble finding it, but...

Alright I'll list some of the variations here
  • Personalities: One of the servants has a personality of a previously existing person. A personality can count

  • Imaginary friends: Kanon is imaginary (like Sakutaro), but he used to be real he can be placed on people's mental game boards and have an illusion of being a real person, but only one person really exists.

  • Same person/disguise: Shannon and Kanon disguise as the other person. Shannon and Kanon have a duel at the beginning of the games whoever wins disguises as the other person. The person who CAN be in the disguise usually only works for certain games.
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Old 2010-04-24, 23:39   Link #9085
Shiro Kaisen
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Knox 7, the detective may not be the culprit. However, Erika has committed several murders already. Therefore, she must not be the detective.

Incidentally, I've said this before, but: Knox 1, the culprit must be someone introduced in the early part of the story. Therefore, Erika's real identity must be someone who was introduced in the early part of the story.
Furudo Erika was not initially the detective in Episode Six! This is made obvious by the fact that Erika has a conversation with Dlanor in Chapter Eight on-island! Therefore, Knox's 7th does not apply!

Also, who said the culprit is the only one who can commit a murder? If someone kills in self-defense, this does not mean they are the "culprit!"
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Old 2010-04-24, 23:39   Link #9086
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
EDIT: Sort of like what chronotrig said. Stop attacking the Shkanon theory, and instead consider that it's true. After considering it I've found that it allows for a ton of other ridiculous theories.
Wait, slow down a bit. First off, I don't think you've understood this personalities thing yet. Unfortunately, EP6 describes it in several different places, and I don't have the time to go all over the thing to find all the points. I'd suggest checking the game or waiting for the translation (which is finally moving along).

But it's not as easy as you're making it out to be. There are several rules which limit how it can be used, only some of which I personally think I understand.
Also remember that we have Knox's 8th to deal with, and a secret this big needs to have a massive amount of foreshadowing. I don't think you can make a case for anyone as strong as the case I've made for Shannon and Kanon.
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Old 2010-04-24, 23:40   Link #9087
Laserworm
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Quote:
Personalities: One of the servants has a personality of a previously existing person. A personality can count


Imaginary friends: Kanon is imaginary (like Sakutaro), but he used to be real he can be placed on people's mental game boards and have an illusion of being a real person, but only one person really exists.


Same person/disguise: Shannon and Kanon disguise as the other person. Shannon and Kanon have a duel at the beginning of the games whoever wins disguises as the other person. The person who CAN be in the disguise usually only works for certain games.
But still for the few scenes with Battler and Kanon in it, it means that Shannon has to be Kanon. The wheelbarrow scene that happens at least in ep1 and 3. The kitchen scene that happens in 1.
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Old 2010-04-24, 23:43   Link #9088
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen View Post
Also, who said the culprit is the only one who can commit a murder? If someone kills in self-defense, this does not mean they are the "culprit!"
No, but Erika did, indeed, murder them in a fashion that was in no way justifiable.

Therefore, she is A culprit, if not THE culprit.

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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
I don't think you can make a case for anyone as strong as I think I've made the case for Shannon and Kanon.
Fixed for you.

From my point of view, you haven't made a very strong case at all. You've just made a big, convoluted one.
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Old 2010-04-24, 23:44   Link #9089
Shiro Kaisen
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
No, but Erika did, indeed, murder them in a fashion that was in no way justifiable.

Therefore, she is A culprit, if not THE culprit.
Yeah, that's true, it's just a point I wanted to make for reference. The red text makes a big distinction between "culprit" and "murderer."
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Old 2010-04-24, 23:44   Link #9090
Laserworm
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Knox 7, the detective may not be the culprit. However, Erika has committed several murders already. Therefore, she must not be the detective.

Incidentally, I've said this before, but: Knox 1, the culprit must be someone introduced in the early part of the story. Therefore, Erika's real identity must be someone who was introduced in the early part of the story.
Wait does this mean that Erika represents one of the 17? This would mean that whoever represents Erika is the detective in ep5 and the killer in ep6.
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Old 2010-04-24, 23:45   Link #9091
Renall
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Wait, slow down a bit. First off, I don't think you've understood this personalities thing yet. Unfortunately, EP6 describes it in several different places, and I don't have the time to go all over the thing to find all the points. I'd suggest checking the game or waiting for the translation (which is finally moving along).

But it's not as easy as you're making it out to be. There are several rules which limit how it can be used, only some of which I personally think I understand.
Also remember that we have Knox's 8th to deal with, and a secret this big needs to have a massive amount of foreshadowing. I don't think you can make a case for anyone as strong as the case I've made for Shannon and Kanon.
You can't make the case at all, because it's ludicrous. The only reason Shkanon can survive is the vestigial failure of the narrative to prohibit it, an intentional maneuver by a writer who knows we eat it all up.

There is absolutely no logical way to distinguish a "piece" from a "personality" from a "disguise" using the text we are given. No matter the evidence - real or imagined - that any two people are the same person, no evidence exists to suggest the actual manner in which they are connected. Any attempt to do so is illogical and self-contradictory, as has been proven time and again.

If this concept were right, it would be explicable and understandable. Either it isn't being explained properly or it is impossible to understand because it defies sense. I have my own feelings about which is the case, but it's one or the other.

EDIT: To clarify, the "manner in which they are connected" means the actual mechanism, be it DID, imagination, or whatever. I understand the theories of WHY they are connected, it's the how that will never, ever make any sense.
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Old 2010-04-24, 23:47   Link #9092
SeagullCrazy
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Wait, slow down a bit. First off, I don't think you've understood this personalities thing yet. Unfortunately, EP6 describes it in several different places, and I don't have the time to go all over the thing to find all the points. I'd suggest checking the game or waiting for the translation (which is finally moving along).

But it's not as easy as you're making it out to be. There are several rules which limit how it can be used, only some of which I personally think I understand.
Also remember that we have Knox's 8th to deal with, and a secret this big needs to have a massive amount of foreshadowing. I don't think you can make a case for anyone as strong as the case I've made for Shannon and Kanon.
I just say "personalities" because it's easier than saying "imaginary people".
Alright, just for clarification, who are these people? I thought it was something like this:

Sayo: The human controlling personalities/imaginary people

Shannon: Imaginary person Sayo pretends to be

Kanon: Imaginary person Sayo pretends to be

Beatrice: Imaginary person Sayo pretends to be

Yoshiya: ??? (I don't think Shkanon theory even talks about this)

I know about the comparison of Maria and Sakutaro, too. Whenever Sakutaro spoke, it was really Maria playacting as him. We can apply the same to Sayo, right? Sayo was just playacting as each imaginary person or personality.

In the same way, Gohda can playact as a magical chef. And Nanjo can playact as his own granddaughter too (or is that going too far?).
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Old 2010-04-24, 23:48   Link #9093
Judoh
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Wait does this mean that Erika represents one of the 17? This would mean that whoever represents Erika is the detective in ep5 and the killer in ep6.
Yes that's what it means. Erika can be a title. There is Erika ball theory that says Erika is a game or an objective perspective that gets passed from person to person. Erika can also be Imaginary like Sakutaro or represent an object like Beatrice's letters or Maria's rose.

Heck there is even a theory that Beatrice is a teapot.
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Old 2010-04-24, 23:49   Link #9094
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Oh, sorry, there's one more usage in EP6.

例外一ヶ所を除いて、客室に戦人が存在しないことを確認しました。
Ushiromiya Battler does not exist in the guest room. ...That's including the closet, with no exceptions whatsoever.


It's used for Battler as well. Although we know his physical body should also not be in the room. At least if we are to believe the scene and the reds.

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So is it only used for Kanon those times in ep6 or is it used all the time Kanon is said in red?
In episode 6, yes. Except for two lines about Erika checking Battler. In EP4-6 there are ones used for Kinzo.
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Old 2010-04-24, 23:51   Link #9095
chronotrig
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@SeagullCrazy:
Yes, but any of those people can also be the murderer. You wouldn't say "Oh no, we have so many suspects it's impossible to find out who did it." You use logic and clues to try and guess who it is, or, which is much more interesting in my opinion, why it is that person.
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Old 2010-04-24, 23:51   Link #9096
Judoh
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Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
In the same way, Gohda can playact as a magical chef. And Nanjo can playact as his own granddaughter too (or is that going too far?).
Not every character is a personality. Sayo or Yoshiya would end up being the real person under Shkanon it's just that Sayo works better than Yoshiya. And the added trice would just be a disguise I think.

The personalities would probably just be the Servants names.
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Old 2010-04-24, 23:51   Link #9097
Shiro Kaisen
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Wait does this mean that Erika represents one of the 17? This would mean that whoever represents Erika is the detective in ep5 and the killer in ep6.
Furudo Erika washes up onshore in Episodes 5 and 6, barely alive. She dies almost immediately. Therefore, the number of humans on the island is raised to eighteen. However, as Battler and Beato confirm, there are only 17 people on the island. "Erika" as used in the red text refers to either Erika's corpse, as in the case of it being in the parlour in Episode 5, or the player Erika, whose objective perspective is based on the immediate location of her corpse.
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Old 2010-04-24, 23:52   Link #9098
Laserworm
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Yes that's what it means. Erika can be a title. There is Erika ball theory that says Erika is a game or an objective perspective that gets passed from person to person. Erika can also be Imaginary like Sakutaro or represent an object like Beatrice's letters or Maria's rose.

Heck there is even a theory that Beatrice is a teapot.
XD I've read the Teatrice theory funny stuff. But if this is true that means that someone in ep5 who survives the 7 killings has an objective point of view. Hmm.. I'm curious now.
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Old 2010-04-24, 23:53   Link #9099
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen View Post
I'm just referring to the fact that "Kanon does not exist within the room" and this can be accomplished by Kanon being dead. Since Erika's the detective, she couldn't have killed him. What if Kanon killed himself, or Battler killed him? It's another possible solution...maybe...

The other personality stuff doesn't work. The evidence for Shkanon is that Shannon and Kanon are never in the same room with each other as observed by the Detective and several times within the story Shannon and Kanon have mutually exclusive happinesses or somesuch. That's enough to satisfy Knox's 8th at least.
OHHHHHH, I got it. Kanon was fatally wounded. He did not come to save Battler intentionally. Nor did he meet Battler in the hallway. This is why Beatrice left the matter of whether the rescue was intentional or not.

He entered the guest room to hide himself and thought that setting the chain lock would give him security. Then he died while hiding in the closet.

This is similar to what Natsuhi did in EP5.

EDIT: If this is true, I would have to say that Kanon is actually a high value target for the culprit. And so that could be one reason why he fakes his own death. And that doesn't denies him going rogue and trying to find out what's going on; even going to the point of say killing Nanjo in EP3.
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Old 2010-04-24, 23:54   Link #9100
Renall
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Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen View Post
Furudo Erika washes up onshore in Episodes 5 and 6, barely alive. She dies almost immediately. Therefore, the number of humans on the island is raised to eighteen. However, as Battler and Beato confirm, there are only 17 people on the island. "Erika" as used in the red text refers to either Erika's corpse, as in the case of it being in the parlour in Episode 5, or the player Erika, whose objective perspective is based on the immediate location of her corpse.
What, so now they're dragging a corpse around too?

"I'll be right back guys. I'm taking that corpse that washed up on the beach to go solve the epitaph."

"Why do you need a corpse for that?"

"I might get hungry."
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