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Old 2010-04-25, 18:16   Link #9221
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Either Rosa or Natsuhi lied, both of them lied, or neither of them lied and the three people just happened to die within the same year.

If both of them lied about their stories then isn't it possible for:
1967 Beatrice = Servant who Natsuhi pushed off the cliff = Kinzo's wife

Then again, I don't see why they would lie about it.

Yeah, it's getting wierd now...
Or maybe only one of the stories is true. There's only one red saying this person died. It's not exactly specific on who it was or even who saw them dead.

And just because granny wasn't on the island doesn't mean she's dead. I'd think she'd divorce him if she thought he was cheating on her.
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Old 2010-04-25, 18:24   Link #9222
Ssol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
  • If both are lockable, whether by key, bolt, chain or other means, it can become a closed room as per the Beatrice definition.
hmm? Seperation between the outside and inside of a room is all that is required per Beatrice's closed room definition. A lock is not neccessarily required to create a closed room.

I understand that we may have our differences in what defines a closed room but shouldn't we stick to the definition given from the game?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beatrice's Closed Room Definition
The term closed room refers to a room where the inside and the outside of a the room are completely seperated
I encourage you to read at least the first twilight of my episode 3 link in my signature for my theory if you have questions regarding my position.
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Or maybe only one of the stories is true. There's only one red saying this person died. It's not exactly specific on who it was or even who saw them dead.

And just because granny wasn't on the island doesn't mean she's dead. I'd think she'd divorce him if she thought he was cheating on her.
I agree. If I had to pick a liar........ I would pick........ Rosa!

Ronove stated that in the forest of Rokkenjima, a hidden mansion called Kuwadorian exists. Beatrice and Kinzo had a conversation regarding who she really was in Kuwadorian. Ronove confirmed this by stating that those two actually had a conversation like that in this place. Ronove also said, "In the year 1967, in the hidden mansion on Rokkenjima, Beatrice existed as a human.".

Beatrice and Kinzo's conversation was omitted from the anime and the red truth regarding that conversation was also omitted. Since the conversation was omitted it was never stated that "This is the world of 1967." in the anime. Ronove had said that during Beatrice and Kinzo's conversation in the visual novel. Rosa's flashback began after Beatrice and Kinzo's conversation from 1967.

In the visual novel red truth was never given that the world of 1967 occured during the same year as Rosa's flashback. Regardless of what year it happened, human Beatrice died by falling off a cliff in Rosa's flashback. Meta-Beatrice confirmed that she was definitely dead to meta-Battler after Rosa had left the scene.
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Last edited by Ssol; 2010-04-25 at 18:34.
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Old 2010-04-25, 18:26   Link #9223
rogerpepitone
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What were Japan's divorce laws at the time? If she were to file for divorce without specific evidence he'd been cheating, she'd probably get very little.
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Old 2010-04-25, 18:39   Link #9224
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Actually I think Ronove also said This is the world of 1967 as well in the VN.
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Old 2010-04-25, 18:44   Link #9225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post

I agree. If I had to pick a liar........ I would pick........ Rosa!
If Rosa was lying we must have been given a hint to it in ep1-4.
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Old 2010-04-25, 18:44   Link #9226
Ssol
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Actually I think Ronove also said This is the world of 1967 as well.
Ronove never said This is the world of 1967 in the anime. He only used red truth to confirm that Beatrice existed as a human in 1967. "In the year 1967, in the hidden mansion on Rokkenjima, Beatrice existed as a human."

My theory is that this is another clue. He couldn't say This is the world of 1967 during the Rosa and Beatrice scene if it didn't actually occur in 1967. Go back and check the anime if you wish.
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
If Rosa was lying we must have been given a hint to it in ep1-4.
That's always been the problem. I don't think there's a reason why Rosa would lie at that time.
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Old 2010-04-25, 18:52   Link #9227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
That's always been the problem. I don't think there's a reason why Rosa would lie at that time.
Not to mention her lie must be based on some truths. She mentioned the hidden mansion. and we know it exists, she mentioned meeting Beatrice there. We know Beatrice was there. She said Beatrice died. we know Beatrice died. If it is a lie, she knows quite a bit of stuff.
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Old 2010-04-25, 18:56   Link #9228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Wait...

If Beatrice died in '67 or so... and Rosa reports her mother being around. Yet in that same year, Natsuhi also reports her mother-in-law not being around, if this is not an error doesn't mean that Kinzo's wife died in '67? So we have 3 deaths that year? I wouldn't be surprised that Kinzo's wife hurled herself off a cliff too.
Quote:
Either Rosa or Natsuhi lied, both of them lied, or neither of them lied and the three people just happened to die within the same year.

If both of them lied about their stories then isn't it possible for:
1967 Beatrice = Servant who Natsuhi pushed off the cliff = Kinzo's wife

Then again, I don't see why they would lie about it.

Yeah, it's getting wierd now...
I can think of another reason without either lying. Ryu07 forgot about Kinzo's wife. She isn't that important to the plot, so he forgot to mention her competely and he also forgot he mentioned Rosa getting yelled at by her mother. It isn't hard to make this mistake, unless he completely reread all he wrote for ep3 while writing ep5.
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Old 2010-04-25, 19:00   Link #9229
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Rosa couldn't lie about her grandmother being still alive at that time.

Rudolf comments: about 20 years ago.

So everyone has in mind that Rosa is talking about an event happened around that time, yet Rosa says at that time she had an argument with her mother. That particular didn't go unnoticed since Krauss comments that he sympathizes for Rosa being treated particularly bad from their mother.

Now if their mother was supposed to be dead at that time, I guess someone would have noticed. So no, around 20 years ago Kinzo's wife was still alive.

Then again this isn't just Rosa's story, it's something that Beatrice is showing to Battler and I see no reason as to why Beatrice would lie about this issue.

So in the end I can only think that Natsuhi forgot that Kinzo's wife was also there at that time.
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Old 2010-04-25, 19:10   Link #9230
Ssol
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At the family conference Rosa confessed that a human Beatrice actually existed. This was Beatrice when she was still a human. She was forced by Kinzo to live her entire life trapped in Kuwadorian. Rosa said that this Beatrice died by falling off a cliff. However, Rosa said something strange when she described what happened:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosa, Episode 3
How old was I then, I wonder. Probably, middle school. I don’t remember well. Anyways, I think I was about that old.
If you were at least partially responsible for the death of another person the exact date of the incident would probably never be forgotten.
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Old 2010-04-25, 19:18   Link #9231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
If you were at least partially responsible for the death of another person the exact date of the incident would probably never be forgotten.
Not necessarily. And Rosa probably spent the rest of her school years or longer trying to erase the memory. In the end she probably just convinced herself it was a bad dream and didn't really happen.

Though I will admit Rosa's story is funny.. Does she react when she hears Beatrice's name in other eps?
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Old 2010-04-25, 19:22   Link #9232
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Not necessarily. And Rosa probably spent the rest of her school years or longer trying to erase the memory. In the end she probably just convinced herself it was a bad dream and didn't really happen.
No. Not in the case of someone who could potentially be accused of killing another person.

Of course you would try to forget what happened, but you would never forget the details of it.
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Old 2010-04-25, 19:29   Link #9233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
No. Not in the case of someone who could potentially be accused of killing another person.

Of course you would try to forget what happened, but you would never forget the details of it.
She does remember the details. Age is a thing that is VERY easy to mess up. You can easily mistake your age. It also could have been in the time between when she was in middle school and high school (I got that right, right?) You could forget the date, (example. did it take place in aug or sept?) That isn't hard to mess up either. You could easily remember other facts. The smells, sounds, setting, words, ect. Just because she doesn't remember her exact age doesn't make her story false.

Though I think her story might be fishy too.
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Old 2010-04-25, 19:33   Link #9234
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
Though I will admit Rosa's story is funny.. Does she react when she hears Beatrice's name in other eps?
Speaking it in Rosa's presence earns Maria a whack on the head one time out of three, I'd say - it'd be tough to count. Anyone else saying it is immune though.
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Old 2010-04-25, 19:36   Link #9235
Laserworm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Speaking it in Rosa's presence earns Maria a whack on the head one time out of three, I'd say - it'd be tough to count. Anyone else saying it is immune though.
Rosa doesn't live long in most games though. Her story could be the reason why in ep2 she suspects that it is foolish for the witch to be the culprit. And it isn't like she can just whack the others on the head...
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Old 2010-04-25, 20:36   Link #9236
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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
What were Japan's divorce laws at the time? If she were to file for divorce without specific evidence he'd been cheating, she'd probably get very little.
In the 50s-80s in Japan? There's no way she'd divorce a man that rich and powerful. And she may well have been in the same situation Natsuhi was in, to the point that she really had no choice.
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Old 2010-04-25, 21:50   Link #9237
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
Though I will admit Rosa's story is funny.. Does she react when she hears Beatrice's name in other eps?
I've been saying this for months: Rosa's story makes no sense with how she behaves in the other episodes. I'm willing to bet it never happened.
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Old 2010-04-25, 21:59   Link #9238
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
Not necessarily. And Rosa probably spent the rest of her school years or longer trying to erase the memory. In the end she probably just convinced herself it was a bad dream and didn't really happen.

Though I will admit Rosa's story is funny.. Does she react when she hears Beatrice's name in other eps?
There was a moment in EP 2 where she seemed to have some recollection. When she was with Maria in front of the portrait talking about the envelopes, before dinner. She was thinking about the Beatrice that Maria claimed to meet every year, when she thought about how a witch could never exist. Her head then began to hurt.

It's very easy to think that she might have suppressed the memory of the witch. I see no real reason for Beatrice to show a fake flashback -- Battler himself thought it was a lie of some sort and she seemed disappointed at the notion he was making.
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Old 2010-04-25, 22:17   Link #9239
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
There was a moment in EP 2 where she seemed to have some recollection. When she was with Maria in front of the portrait talking about the envelopes, before dinner. She was thinking about the Beatrice that Maria claimed to meet every year, when she thought about how a witch could never exist. Her head then began to hurt.
Hmm. Weren't there a bunch of times when somebody giving false narration got a headache and a feeling that something was wrong? I know Kyrie had a couple scenes like that.
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Old 2010-04-25, 22:20   Link #9240
Ssol
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Then again this isn't just Rosa's story, it's something that Beatrice is showing to Battler and I see no reason as to why Beatrice would lie about this issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
It's very easy to think that she might have suppressed the memory of the witch. I see no real reason for Beatrice to show a fake flashback -- Battler himself thought it was a lie of some sort and she seemed disappointed at the notion he was making.
Everything that was shown was part of the game the Beatrice had prepared beforehand. I don’t believe Beatrice tricked Battler.

However, you are forgetting what had happened at that time. Battler wasn’t listening to her seriously so she asked Ronove to take over and left. The two scenes:
  • Beatrice and Kinzo’s conversation. Confirmed to have happened in 1967 by the red truth.
  • Rosa and Beatrice’s story. The exact time of this was not confirmed.

Beatrice wasn’t trying to trick Battler by showing the 1967 scene right before Rosa and Beatrice’s story. She left before she could give any details about it. Ronove took her place.
Did Ronove trick Battler? No, I don’t think so. However, he was reluctant to give too many details since it was Beatrice’s game.

Therefore, here’s the theory I’ve been leading up to:
Beatrice showed Battler the scene from 1967 first because that was the only time when she had a conversation with Kinzo that would help Battler learn the truth. If Battler would have listened to her story properly then she wouldn’t have left and Ronove wouldn’t have taken her place. She would have been around to answer the questions regarding the Rosa and Beatrice story as well. Ronove, who was reluctant to give too many details did not mention the year was not 1967 when Beatrice fell off the cliff.

No one was trying to trick anyone and no one was showing a fake flashback.
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