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Old 2010-04-26, 14:25   Link #9261
Jan-Poo
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Okay after thinking about the latest stuff I came up with another one of my crazy theories. this theory tries to unify several elements across the game and give a single explanation to both.
The interesting part is that it can match with shkanon theory, ghosterika theory and kanon-kinzo theory, all in a single package.

I'll call it the medium theory.
here are the main points of the theory:

- Among the people in Rokkenjima there is a person (which will be called "person X") who has the ability to act as "medium" for the spirits of the dead. Whether this actually happens or it's just magic mumbo-jumbo that can be explained in another way is not really relevant to the theory.
- Person X, once possessed by other personalities (which for simplicity will be called "ghosts" from now on), becomes unaware of his real self. the ghosts take over the body and act according to their personality and will.
- Ghosts may or may not be aware of the truth, but most of them do know they are merely living in an host body.
- Genji, Kumasawa most certainly know about Person's X ability, however they can't really tell that to everyone because they know they'll face disbelief. Kinzo of course knew that very well.
- Person X does not have total control on her ability, so it could happen that she makes things she isn't aware of. Consequently, Genji and Kumasawa often need to cover up her blunders.
- Ghosts might be able to see other ghosts and converse with them if the situation allows it. Also if they quickly interchange in Person's X body, Genji and Kumasawa or whoever knows and accept this strange story are able to talk with two or more ghosts at the same time.


Kinzo's ghost
If this theory is correct, then Person X can host Kinzo's ghost. Natsuhi might have been very skeptical of this in the beginning, but her strong desire to see Kinzo again, made her "magitoxin" level fade and therefore she was able to recognize Person X as Kinzo. She accepts that Person X truly becomes Kinzo even so she is aware that everyone else cannot understand it. Whenever in the game we see Kinzo, it's actually Person X. Whenever we see person talking about Kinzo even among the people tha know he is dead, they are referring to Kinzo's ghost. In time Krauss accepted this truth as well.

Beatrice's ghost
Beatrice died long ago, and then a second Beatrice died in 1967. Both their ghosts can possess Person X. This explains the "two Beatrice dilemma". This also explains why Beatrice "has no body". The witch's prank can be explained by Person X becoming the witch, and of course Genji does his best to cover it up.

Shannon's and Kanon's ghosts
It is possible that one of them is dead or both of them are. It's difficult to imagine who they were but it's possible that Shannon was the young maid that died in 1967. Kanon has been said to have died in Jessica's room, maybe that was an accident of some sort.
Shannon has been possessing Person X for a long while, making it the main ghost. Kanon has probably died more recently 3 years before, causing his appearance to come much later.

Erika's ghost
Erika died by falling from the pleasure boat. This is can only be explained with the supernatural, in that case it's possible that her "ghost" possessed person X. More of that later.


EP2 chapel scene
Person X, possessed by Beatrice, invited all the adults in the chapel and explained the situation. Of course no one wanted to believe that at first, however Beatrice managed to convince them somehow. She proved it. That's why Rudolf said "what can I say you have proved devils". Everyone, reluctantly, acknowledged it: "You are the witch Beatrice".
Later when Rosa goes talking to Kinzo, she is actually going to talk to Person X possessed by his ghost. Rosa already knows the situation from before, so she accept that Person X can become Kinzo as well.

EP4 Kinzo's appearance
Krauss and Natsuhi already believe that Kinzo's ghost can take control of person X, however they don't think they can just tell this story to the rest of the family.
In EP4, they are left with no choice. They have no choice but to ask Person X to become Kinzo and show himself in front of everyone. And so that's what happens.
Similar to the previous situation, the adults have no other way but to accept the evidence even if it is preposterous. They all acknowledge Kinzo's existence

Kanon, Shannon and Beatrice
This mainly appears in EP2 and EP6. Beatrice is a ghost that emerged only recently. Kanon and Shannon who alternate often and can coexist meet with Beatrice the way it is described in the story. Of course this only happened in their head, not physically. Kanon apparently doesn't like Beatrice, Shannon is more open, in the end Shannon is influenced to accept Beatrice's suggestions to never give up on their love dreams. These kind of interactions only happen at a "spiritual level" not in the real world. The same way is true for Kanon and Kinzo interactions.
For some reasons Beatrice and Kinzo cannot coexist, the irony. Well actually in the end even they can do that since sometimes we see them together.

Kanon and Jessica, George and Shannon, the love duel
Jessica knows, George knows. The persons they love are dead. However their love its too strong to be defeated by that, even if they know the truth they still want to fulfill their dreams, though they know, only one of them can win. George wants person X to be Shannon forever, Jessica wants person X to be Kanon forever. And then of course there's Beatrice that wants to stay with Battler. That's why the love duel is required.

Erika's presence in EP5
When Erika appears in front of Maria it's not like the usual plot really changed. Person X shows in front of Maria as usual, but this time, she's been possessed by Erika's ghost. Maria knows person X situation and being very perceptive she recognizes that person X is being possessed by an unknown person. She then brings person X to Kumasawa and Genji which understand what happened. Someone named Erika Furudo just drowned and now Person X believes that she's that person. In order to cover up the problem, they try disguise Person X as much as possible to make her look like a stranger.
Then Person X is introduced to everyone as Furudo Erika explaining that she just survived after falling off a ship. Erika's ghost herself believes in this story.
She is able to see both Kanon and Shannon, but she's not aware that they aren't actually there.

I stops here, for now, but I think you can guess all the other implications, it would be very long to explains them all. Of course some of these parts might be false. After all if they are ALL correct, then we need an unknown person to make 17 people in total.
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Old 2010-04-26, 14:45   Link #9262
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I'll call it the medium theory.
here are the main points of the theory:

- Among the people in Rokkenjima there is a person (which will be called "person X") who has the ability to act as "medium" for the spirits of the dead. Whether this actually happens or it's just magic mumbo-jumbo that can be explained in another way is not really relevant to the theory.
- Person X, once possessed by other personalities (which for simplicity will be called "ghosts" from now on), becomes unaware of his real self. the ghosts take over the body and act according to their personality and will.
This is elegant and universal, but it keeps the disguise problem which it inherits from Shkanon. How is Battler, who obviously doesn't believe in magic or the complicated inner workings of someone able to manifest arbitrary identities, is able to readily and instantly tell which of the ghosts he is talking to?
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Old 2010-04-26, 15:00   Link #9263
Kylon99
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I gotta admit, if not for the paranormal aspects of that, which can be explained away as multiple personality disorder, it does represent a solution for the entire Umineko. If a bit unsatisfying...

I once joked about this theory, which if I may, I'd like to call the Sheverybodytrice theory. 8)

(Actually, my joke about the Sheverybodytrice theory was that there was just one or two people on the island and everyone is fake... although that doesn't work for the given count of people on the island now.)


Actually there is one supporting piece of evidence that if not everyone is possessing people as 'ghosts' then maybe at least Beatrice is. Maria seems to have difficulty identifying Beatrice. I'm sure everyone remembers her pointing to Eva-Beatrice in EP3 and declaring that 'Beatrice is here.' It makes me wonder if Maria thinks Beatrice's form keeps changing so she recognizes any strange occurance as 'Beatrice.'
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Old 2010-04-26, 15:04   Link #9264
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
I once joked about this theory, which if I may, I'd like to call the Sheverybodytrice theory. 8)

(Actually, my joke about the Sheverybodytrice theory was that there was just one or two people on the island and everyone is fake... although that doesn't work for the given count of people on the island now.)
That'd be Ryukishi himself. But then we would be denying the two principal assumptions of literary criticism and characters become simple words which aren't even on paper, which makes this whole thread meaningless.
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Old 2010-04-26, 15:05   Link #9265
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
This is elegant and universal, but it keeps the disguise problem which it inherits from Shkanon. How is Battler, who obviously doesn't believe in magic or the complicated inner workings of someone able to manifest arbitrary identities, is able to readily and instantly tell which of the ghosts he is talking to?
I hate to do it this way, but we could say Battler IS dead and is a ghost. And Shannon, Kanon, or Erika are not; whatever it takes to satisfy the body count.

This owing to how Battler is seldom by himself, some people have said, and how he just participates in conversations but doesn't lead or something.
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Old 2010-04-26, 15:12   Link #9266
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I'll call it the medium theory.
here are the main points of the theory:

<snip>

I stops here, for now, but I think you can guess all the other implications, it would be very long to explains them all. Of course some of these parts might be false. After all if they are ALL correct, then we need an unknown person to make 17 people in total.
...Oh my. This might be workable, if you can resolve that person count issue.

I suspected for a while after EP3 that there might be a tiny supernatural core at the heart of the mystery. That would be the one way that Lambda could be absolutely certain Bern would never, ever solve it. And it would be totally in keeping with Ryukishi initially claiming that it could be a fantasy or a mystery.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99
I hate to do it this way, but we could say Battler IS dead and is a ghost. And Shannon, Kanon, or Erika are not; whatever it takes to satisfy the body count.

This owing to how Battler is seldom by himself, some people have said, and how he just participates in conversations but doesn't lead or something.
From EP3: Battler is alive. So I think that doesn't work, unless you bring in some shenanigans involving the other Battler.
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Old 2010-04-26, 15:17   Link #9267
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
I hate to do it this way, but we could say Battler IS dead and is a ghost. And Shannon, Kanon, or Erika are not; whatever it takes to satisfy the body count.

This owing to how Battler is seldom by himself, some people have said, and how he just participates in conversations but doesn't lead or something.
But considering that it makes it impossible to determine if any scene with Battler present in it is a reliable perspective, because he could have been displaced out of it by another ghost at any moment, discussion also becomes meaningless. Battler that is dead only works if he's alone in whatever jar that keeps his soul.
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Old 2010-04-26, 15:24   Link #9268
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Oh, hey. The age of the true master of this world is 19, so:

1948: Kawabata begins supplying Kuwadorian.
1967~1968: Beatrice-2 dies, Kawabata stops supplying Kuwadorian.

1967 - 1948 = 19.
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Old 2010-04-26, 15:25   Link #9269
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
I suspected for a while after EP3 that there might be a tiny supernatural core at the heart of the mystery. That would be the one way that Lambda could be absolutely certain Bern would never, ever solve it. And it would be totally in keeping with Ryukishi initially claiming that it could be a fantasy or a mystery.
The problem is that we don't really know how big a supernatural element really is allowed in explanations. It's obviously not something as big as 'magic', because that is essentially accepting a witch while pretending you aren't.

It's very easy to assume a tiny supernatural element that looks reasonable, which will eventually purely logically transform into a 2=1 equation, which will allow an arbitrary quantity of supernatural that you can't stop...

P.S. Actually, if we roll with it, Kanon is Natsuhi's furniture, materialized from a memory of the baby 19 years ago. Natsuhi repeatedly has headaches. Ange refers to the strain on her brain imposed by materializing the Stakes as a headache. He is not a suitable boyfriend for Jessica in Natsuhi's eyes, which is why he isn't allowed to love her.
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Old 2010-04-26, 15:42   Link #9270
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...Oh my. This might be workable, if you can resolve that person count issue.
Alright, let's try this. The true number of people on the island in EP1-4 is sixteen. Shannon is the medium. Having this ability is the reason she was brought to the island so young, and why she remained for such a long time. In EP5-6, Erika was alive when she washed up on the island, increasing the person count to 17, but she died almost immediately, releasing her ghost to possess Shannon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
The problem is that we don't really know how big a supernatural element really is allowed in explanations. It's obviously not something as big as 'magic', because that is essentially accepting a witch while pretending you aren't.

It's very easy to assume a tiny supernatural element that looks reasonable, which will eventually purely logically transform into a 2=1 equation, which will allow an arbitrary quantity of supernatural that you can't stop...
I agree, but we do have Knox 8 to fall back on, which is a pretty powerful weapon. In this case, there are hints for ghosts, and they still require the medium's human body to take any action, so things like teleporting and magically opening locks won't come into it.
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Old 2010-04-26, 15:43   Link #9271
Jan-Poo
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I must say that this theory, despite its many weak points, it finally gives me enough reasons to accept ghosterika.

Before there were a lot of things that didn't sound right to me. I can't really accept that a random person becomes Erika Furudo, but if it is the same person that can become Beatrice and Kinzo, then it works.

Plus this way I have found a connection between Erika and Beatrice's game, that previously was missing. If Erika is one of the many ghosts of the "Person X", then understanding this is an important piece to understand Beatrice's games.

Also I found interesting to note how Erika and Beatrice seem to be incompatible existences.

Erika makes her appearance when Beatrice starts to die. Soon after Beatrice dies Erika becomes a full fledged witch.

Then we have EP6 where as soon as Beatrice fully recovers her identity Erika dies. Interesting to note that we have a duel between Erika and Beatrice that is pretty similar to the duel between Shannon and Kanon.

Also I wonder if "ghosts" are limited to dead people, because in case they are not, then we can also explain EP3 with person X becoming Evatrice. It would fit since Evatrice takes Beatrice's place. plus the red web of truth would be solved easily if Kanon and Shannon are dead since a long time.

Lastly the scene where Beatrice resurrects Kanon and Shannon for George's and Jessica's sake could be explained by the fact that Beatrice steps aside to let Kanon's and Shannon's ghosts appear.

Quote:
Alright, let's try this. The true number of people on the island in EP1-4 is sixteen. Shannon is the medium. Having this ability is the reason she was brought to the island so young, and why she remained for such a long time. In EP5-6, Erika was alive when she washed up on the island, increasing the person count to 17, but she died almost immediately, releasing her ghost to possess Shannon.
uhmm this could explain the erika ghost without supernatural, if Person X just found the body and the shock caused her to want that girl to have survived.
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Old 2010-04-26, 15:43   Link #9272
SeagullCrazy
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I'll call it the medium theory.
here are the main points of the theory:

Erika's ghost
Erika died by falling from the pleasure boat. This is can only be explained with the supernatural, in that case it's possible that her "ghost" possessed person X. More of that later.

Erika's presence in EP5
When Erika appears in front of Maria it's not like the usual plot really changed. Person X shows in front of Maria as usual, but this time, she's been possessed by Erika's ghost. Maria knows person X situation and being very perceptive she recognizes that person X is being possessed by an unknown person. She then brings person X to Kumasawa and Genji which understand what happened. Someone named Erika Furudo just drowned and now Person X believes that she's that person. In order to cover up the problem, they try disguise Person X as much as possible to make her look like a stranger.
Then Person X is introduced to everyone as Furudo Erika explaining that she just survived after falling off a ship. Erika's ghost herself believes in this story.
She is able to see both Kanon and Shannon, but she's not aware that they aren't actually there.
I found a problem. Erika was the detective in EP5. Knox's 2nd: supernatural agencies cannot be used as a detective technique.

In other words, you can't have a supernatural detective because of Knox's 2nd.

Other than that and the 17th person, I don't see any problems.
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Old 2010-04-26, 15:48   Link #9273
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Well I've just found a possible solution to that problem in the previous post.
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Old 2010-04-26, 16:10   Link #9274
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I have to admit I like the medium theory it can explain a lot of things quite gracefully.

I was just thinking before that of a way the final reds work though. So assuming it's not true I'll add in my theory.

I'll start with the reds supporting it first
  • No more than 17 humans exist on this island!!
  • That excludes any 18th person.
  • In short, this 18th person X does not exist!!
  • This applies to all games!!!
  • Furudo Erika had no influence on any of Beato's games before now.
  • She does not exist in the worlds before this one, nor does she influence them.
  • Furudo Erika only increases it by one person.

The reds in episode 4 created the rule that no more than 17 people exist on Rokkenjima during the disaster. For any new character to be introduced another character must be eliminated to make an 18th person one of the 17 people. Either that character never arrived to the island or he was dead before the game was finished being set up. This allows Erika and other characters to exist while still keeping the number of people no more than seventeen

In other words because of this new rule the game master had to write out or kill off a character to introduce Erika.

For episode 5 and 6 I'd chose Battler.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-04-26 at 16:25.
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Old 2010-04-26, 16:40   Link #9275
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
I found a problem. Erika was the detective in EP5. Knox's 2nd: supernatural agencies cannot be used as a detective technique.

In other words, you can't have a supernatural detective because of Knox's 2nd.
Erika didn't use any supernatural agencies in the course of the investigation. All of the actions she took during the investigation were within the normal capabilities of the medium's perfectly human body. Of course, it would have been a different matter if she'd done something like leave the medium's body in order to spy on Kinzo's study.

A trickier problem to get around is this one:

Three people, that is, three bodies, went in and out of the room. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left.

If there's only one medium, and Kanon and Erika are both ghosts, and ghosts don't count as bodies, then we'd only have two bodies going in and out.
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Old 2010-04-26, 16:47   Link #9276
SeagullCrazy
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Erika didn't use any supernatural agencies in the course of the investigation. All of the actions she took during the investigation were within the normal capabilities of the medium's perfectly human body. Of course, it would have been a different matter if she'd done something like leave the medium's body in order to spy on Kinzo's study.
I meant if Erika is a ghost, then that itself is supernatural. So if Erika's ghost is the detective, then the medium would be using Erika as a detective technique, which violates Knox's 2nd.


But Jan-Poo did offer a different explanation in a previous post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo
uhmm this could explain the erika ghost without supernatural, if Person X just found the body and the shock caused her to want that girl to have survived.
If I understand correctly, the medium saw Erika's corpse and pretended she was her ghost to keep Erika "alive".
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Old 2010-04-26, 17:14   Link #9277
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
A trickier problem to get around is this one:

Three people, that is, three bodies, went in and out of the room. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left.

If there's only one medium, and Kanon and Erika are both ghosts, and ghosts don't count as bodies, then we'd only have two bodies going in and out.
I was thinking the same thing. If it wasn't for this I could solve the riddle by stating that Erika's ghost was shut down momentarily to let Kanon jump in the scene. Kanon then locked the room and disappeared without letting Erika understand what happened.

however the "3 bodies" issue cannot be explained...
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Old 2010-04-26, 17:31   Link #9278
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however the "3 bodies" issue cannot be explained...
A third body was carried into the room by the medium with an intent to hide it in there.
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Old 2010-04-26, 17:45   Link #9279
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A third body was carried into the room by the medium with an intent to hide it in there.
Erika!Medium carried her own corpse into the room. Kanon knew Battler was hiding inside, so he hijacked the medium after Erika sealed the room and warned Battler to escape.

...Wow, this is getting pretty weird.
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Old 2010-04-26, 17:49   Link #9280
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Speaking of supernatural, I just stumbled on some weirdness in Ep4.
  • According to Maria, summoning, creation and resurrection are substantially different, though she never actually elaborates how. Resurrection and creation are supposedly much harder than summoning.
  • Interacting with a phantom Maria is effortless for Ange while the diary is open.
  • It takes great mental strain for Ange to summon the Stakes. Even maintaining them when they are already summoned is initially a problem.
  • Maria is very definitely dead, so seeing her would, technically, involve resurrection.
  • Maria explains that by claiming that she is actually present regardless of the diary, and the diary merely allows her to be seen. She actually glazes over the issue of being dead in the first place.

If you assume a rational explanation that Ange generally subscribes to, i.e. that virtual characters are internally maintained delusions, there should be no difference whatsoever in terms of effort between interacting with Maria and imagining the Stakes. Stakes should in fact be easier as they are inherently simpler characters. The only difference would be in terms of numbers.

So why?
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