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Old 2010-04-26, 20:44   Link #9301
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Yes, that works in the non-fantasy perspective if Ange only starts feeling the strain when she believes she should. Which is still within bounds.

But actually seeing them before that moment requires her to believe she actually needs training when she in fact does not, which is the really interesting part.
Why do you need training to see something? Through her subconscious revival of Maria, she's entered the world of magic, so there's no reason for her to not see the Stakes. There's never any evidence that Ange is the one summoning Sakutaro, yet she can see him fine. The thing about magic is acceptance, or love. Unless you accept it's existence, you can see it.

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So far, at a glance across the entire text, it's a rather eclectic mess. Very childlike things by Maria ('U-uu!') with little to no system but pure imagination to them coexist with hermetic tradition which is mostly seen as goetia/theurgy (that is, summoning of spirits) and mentions alchemy but astrology is completely forgotten. Much of the underlying philosophy is completely missing and instead replaced by something very different. The concepts Kinzo is described using are suspiciously modern and smell of chaos theory magic... In the middle of all that, number theory pops up out of nowhere and flashes you.
Isn't that the root of all magic though? The childish desire to achieve the impossible through means supernatural, or at least what is considered supernatural in that time period. Whoever Beatrice was wanted to show Battler something, so she spent six years becoming the Endless Witch, Beatrice the Golden, who has lived for a thousand years. Kinzo wished to revive Beatrice, so he dabbled in magic even though he had no potential as a magician, and achieved success, in the end. Maria wished for her mama to always be happy, so she took the mantle of a witch to accomplish her goal. It seems all witches who become witches by their own means do so with a goal in mind. So you could say a witch is someone who possesses a overwelming resolve.
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Old 2010-04-26, 20:59   Link #9302
Jan-Poo
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he he, I think that's the definitely what we have here, Renall. Albeit Ryukishi tries to give us the image of a fool crazy man with Kinzo, I always suspected that this was all a deceipt. Because Kinzo is not mad, he's a genius, that's different. Kinzo is a man that achieved the impossible, I just don't buy his madness. The study of the occult might seem foolish, but I think what Kinzo actually tried to study was the basic principle of "magic" with the clear knowledge that magic doesn't actually exist in this world, but it can be "created".

Tricks and magics, have always been at the center of this story. A magic that is actually a trick what else can be if not stage magic? No doubt that Kinzo is quite knowledgeable about that.

Now think about what Maria says about Beatrice, she keeps saying that Beatrice shows her a lot of magic tricks. Like making appear a candy inside a teacup. But that's just one, Beatrice showed her a lot of magic tricks of that kind. And what's this if not stage magic?

Of course a person like Kinzo cannot be satisfied with the kind of stage magic you see on TV. Kinzo is the man who'd rather use the stage magic tricks to make people truly believe in magic. Kinzo probably believe that a human trick that is indistinguishable from a real magic trick is magic. Some philosophers believe that a reality doesn't exist, rather everyone's experience is their own reality. So if everyone experiences magic wouldn't that be a real magic?

Of course I'm not the kind of person that believes in such a thing but I think Kinzo did.

We know that Kinzo had a lot of occult stuff in his study. But was that really serious stuff?
Now remember the stakes, they weren't serious stuff, they were cheap instruments, garbage.
The kind of thing you'd find in the study of a stage magician not a real occultist (provided that they actually exist).
You know what I think the stakes actually are? trick knives, like these ones, except a little more elaborate.
Why not? They aren't sharp, you can't physically pierce someone with them, not with a normal human strength. But that's all right if they aren't meant to actually pierce people, rather to give they illusion they did.
The rest is special effect, fake scars, fake blood, the kind of thing you can see in a movie. Kinzo shouldn't have problem acquiring that kind of stuff, and he learned how to do it and Beatrice learned from him.
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Old 2010-04-26, 21:01   Link #9303
Renall
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"Without love, it can't be seen."

If you aren't willing to let yourself be fooled, you'll never be able to enjoy the show.

...but what does that say about people who have love? Is love a compromise? Is love overlooking the trick you know is behind the magic?
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Old 2010-04-26, 21:05   Link #9304
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by Renall
It's letting people be fooled, knowing they're being fooled, and consciously choosing to let that happen.
This. I love this one line. It ties in with what Umineko's magic truely is. Thank you Renall, for this line. I kept on thinking that magic was just simply an elaboration on the story. And in a sense, that is magic. But it's more Black magic than anything. What you said, I think that's the truth behind real magic. A magic that everyone accepts because it makes life nicer. Going along with the flow of the show so life is a little brighter.
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Old 2010-04-26, 21:14   Link #9305
Jan-Poo
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This is what magic is.

Maria knows that. That's why she accepts so easily that her mother died. A magic performer can cut a person in half in front of your eyes, but that's not scary, because then the person will get in one piece again. A magic performer can make people disappear, but that's not scary, because then the people reappear again.

And Beatrice might "kill" people, but that's not scary, because Beatrice can "revive" them.
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Old 2010-04-26, 21:15   Link #9306
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
"Without love, it can't be seen."

If you aren't willing to let yourself be fooled, you'll never be able to enjoy the show.

...but what does that say about people who have love? Is love a compromise? Is love overlooking the trick you know is behind the magic?
I think, no matter how romanticly you put it, any amount of love is a compromise. No human is perfect, so falling in love is praising their good qualities while admitting to their faults. So yes, love is a compromise. But that doesn't make it any less important.
So, what Ryuukishi is saying with Umineko is that without love, you cannot compromise. But once we admit to the faults of magic, we can understand what the games are all about.
Hopefully, at least.
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Old 2010-04-26, 21:19   Link #9307
SeagullCrazy
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
"Without love, it can't be seen."

If you aren't willing to let yourself be fooled, you'll never be able to enjoy the show.
That's the best interpretation of that line I've seen so far, IMO.

You raised a ton of interesting points about Kinzo's obsession with magic. Since Kinzo is dead, I wonder if his will was to have someone to put on one final magic show. I wouldn't put it past him, after all.
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Old 2010-04-26, 21:29   Link #9308
Judoh
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Imagine, for instance, that Battler is actually the first person murdered, shortly into the first day. Battler's ghost then meanders about investigating the mysteries, though he isn't aware that he died and thus never does anything that would necessitate suspension of disbelief. His perspective remains objective, he's merely mistaken when he thinks people are paying attention to him (this doesn't work with Umineko's narrative, but just pretend for a second). He refuses to accept a supernatural means for the crime and proceeds to attempt to investigate using the clues he has available, ep1 style.
This actually works in Umineko though. We take if for granted, but there is a scene where Virgilia dies without knowing she died. She didn't remember she was dead. So someone dying and becoming a ghost without knowing about it might work. You could argue that a medium could channel them and the ghost might not know about it either.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Kinzo's magic is stage magic
You remember the scene in episode 3 with the tarot cards? Kinzo kept playing hands until he got the one that was best. The narration said other people would think he's disrespecting the cards by doing that, but actually he understands the cards more than anyone. Tarot cards are just a random number generator to him. And he plays them over and over until he gets the numbers he wants.

EDIT: You guys remember when we were talking about how Ryukishi color codes everything in umineko, with red, blue, black, purple and gold? What if the "roulette" is color coded? You choose random colors and each time you get a different selection of people.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-04-26 at 21:58.
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Old 2010-04-27, 00:39   Link #9309
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You know, this does fit in with what Kanon was talking about in EP6 with Kinzo being a prankster. I kept thinking the first twilight faking had to be some really serious, awful thing that scared even the siblings into submission.

Maybe it's Kinzo, scaring the siblings into submission... to prank Battler. 8)

I was thinking before that Battler's sin was some kind of joke about, "Oh, wouldn't it be great to have some secret murder mystery in this spooky Western style mansion?" And also, I was figuring that the reason Lucifer seems so interested in Battler romantically is if his sin was Pride. "I bet I can solve any mystery anyone makes for me!"

And so Kinzo decides to take him up on that?

I think we downplayed the possibility since it didn't seem like the whole family was in on any joke... just a few...

EDIT: Although just going over EP3 when the parents are scrambling around to find the servants. More than one keeps saying, "I wouldn't put it past Kinzo to pull a prank like this." referring to the magic circles and locked rooms. That's before they find the dead bodies though.
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Old 2010-04-27, 00:41   Link #9310
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I don't intend to speculate who's in on it, or why they're doing it. I have no idea. However, if the stakes are props, it might fit the "stake people to confirm they're really dead" idea, and it might be a way the "magician faction" is fighting back against the actual killer. From what I can see, the killer is probably a defector from that group (whatever you want to call them), and the group itself is largely innocent. Again though, I don't know who or how.
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Old 2010-04-27, 01:19   Link #9311
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Again though, I don't know who or how.
The "magician faction" basically has to be the servants/Nanjo. Not only are they the people most likely to have served as Kinzo's assistants, but only Shannon and Genji seem to know of the existence of Kinzo's will, which, under this theory, was most probably instructions to carry out the Ultimate Magic Trick which he could not.
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Old 2010-04-27, 02:20   Link #9312
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
The "magician faction" basically has to be the servants/Nanjo.
Servants and Nanjo plus George. He's an occultist don't you know. j/k

Not all of them have to be aware of the "magic tricks". A few of the members would be the people who go on stage and end up being part of the trick.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I don't intend to speculate who's in on it, or why they're doing it. I have no idea. However, if the stakes are props, it might fit the "stake people to confirm they're really dead" idea, and it might be a way the "magician faction" is fighting back against the actual killer. From what I can see, the killer is probably a defector from that group (whatever you want to call them), and the group itself is largely innocent. Again though, I don't know who or how.
The "who is in the groups" part is largely unimportant. The important part is who is the leader of the group and when you know that then you can figure out the how and the why. Different episodes probably have different members. It probably works like school sports. The different team leaders get to choose who would be the best members for the group in the scenario they want to act out.

The only question I have for you is: What about the bomb?

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-04-27 at 02:43.
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Old 2010-04-27, 07:26   Link #9313
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
We know that Kinzo had a lot of occult stuff in his study. But was that really serious stuff?
According to Ootsuki much later, Kinzo was in the top five authorities on demonology in Japan, collecting rare texts which are not available as your regular paperback.

Which actually does not prevent the "stage magic" interpretation, because nothing stops Kinzo from actually doing both for further verisimilitude of his stage act, but makes it a little less elegant.
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Old 2010-04-27, 07:35   Link #9314
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His expertise could be simply that. If you're an expert in fairy folklore it doesn't mean you believe in fairies. And Witch Hunters seem willing to believe just about anything that makes the tragedy more bizarre, so they're never credible.

I don't think it explains the actions or motives of the entire game, but it might explain the methods of the group which appears to at least contain Genji, Kumasawa, Nanjo, and possibly Shannon/Kanon (though if anyone is a defector, one or both of them seem like the pick). If a family member is also in the group, he or she is hiding it well.

EDIT: I mentioned some similarities between a magic act and a mystery novel (or other narrative) in a PM to Kaisos, but forgot to get a Sent copy for myself, so now I can't remember what I said. If you saw The Prestige, it's kinda like what Michael Caine's character says about the trick being a "narrative." The main similarity is that in a magic trick, you're expecting a trick; in other words, you anticipate the narrative yet are still "fooled" by it. A murder mystery is the same way; we all know a crime is going to take place in a mystery novel, so why are we always so surprised to see it happen?
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Old 2010-04-27, 08:24   Link #9315
Oliver
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I don't think it explains the actions or motives of the entire game, but it might explain the methods of the group which appears to at least contain Genji, Kumasawa, Nanjo, and possibly Shannon/Kanon (though if anyone is a defector, one or both of them seem like the pick). If a family member is also in the group, he or she is hiding it well.
Rosa may not actually be in the stage magic group, but I'm pretty certain she is somehow affiliated, possibly without knowing the full story, and Maria is very definitely a willing member of the audience. The rose and letter scene is trivial to disrupt, because it requires several things to happen:
  1. Maria must find and notice a sick rose.
  2. Rosa must tell Maria to stick around and look for it indefinitely.
Neither the first nor second can actually be randomly repeatable, and most importantly, Rosa actually approves of Maria sticking around when told:
  • In Ep1, it's Jessica who praises Maria for holding out, and Rosa is strangely not much annoyed at Maria even though you'd expect her to be -- she even lets an 'u-uu' slide even though she normally does not, and Battler remarks on that.
  • In Ep2, the whole post-rose scene is absent because Rosa actually stumbles in on the magic trick in progress even before rain starts, but the preconditions are there.
  • In Ep3, the post-rose scene is glazed over instead, and we don't see Rosa's reaction at all.
  • In Ep4, the post-rose scene consists of Rosa entering the parlor, where she makes a point to praise Maria for staying put in the most affectionate form ever in Battler's presence. Normally, Rosa doesn't do that, but this time she is unexpectedly pleased -- and Meta-Battler even sounds surprised up until the moment we find that he's actually surprised at Ange smashing her tea cup, which distracts our attention from the episode for a very extensive period, enough to completely forget it.

I expect that the Ep4 variant of the post-rose scene is the 'normal' one, when everything goes as planned. Notice also that George marks the rose with a candy wrapper, and not something else. It's always the wrapper from the 'candy Maria ate on the plane', but it's Eva who bought the packet of candy and even uses the receipt later to seal the study, so there has to be an arbitrary number of identical candy wrappers. It's Hideyoshi who asks her if she did buy candy, and he's also inevitably the first one to exclaim "I wouldn't put it past Kinzo!" or something to that effect when a chance comes up. And candy purchase is also one thing that seems to happen in all episodes.
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Old 2010-04-27, 09:57   Link #9316
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If Rosa were somehow involved with a group faking Beatrice, wouldn't she provide a proper costume?
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Old 2010-04-27, 10:08   Link #9317
Oliver
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If Rosa were somehow involved with a group faking Beatrice, wouldn't she provide a proper costume?
If she were sufficiently deeply involved, I imagine that would be a natural role for her, yes. The question is how deeply involved is she really.
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Old 2010-04-27, 10:14   Link #9318
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Don't you guys think that goats are actually people wearing goat masks? This was actually hinted in EP2

As far as I remember goats only appear after someone has been "killed". Which means that those who supposedly are dead can take the role of "goats".
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Old 2010-04-27, 10:26   Link #9319
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Don't you guys think that goats are actually people wearing goat masks? This was actually hinted in EP2

As far as I remember goats only appear after someone has been "killed". Which means that those who supposedly are dead can take the role of "goats".
Which would mean the first twilight "victims". I wondered where they disappeared if the first twilight's were actually fake. This stage magician thing on the last pages seems like a good way to explain a separate magic faction. Probably by Kinzo's will. Then a murderer jumps on the oppoturnity, maybe for "people already died, so I could kill some nasty ones too (EP3 could be something like this)". Then another motive for the main murderer.

If this turns out to be true, I can say Umineko turned almost upside down on some points. And in essence "I let myself be fooled"

The medium theory sounds exciting also. I'd definitely pick Shannon/Kanon for this role. They still need to disguise though.
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Old 2010-04-27, 10:36   Link #9320
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
According to Ootsuki much later, Kinzo was in the top five authorities on demonology in Japan, collecting rare texts which are not available as your regular paperback.

Which actually does not prevent the "stage magic" interpretation, because nothing stops Kinzo from actually doing both for further verisimilitude of his stage act, but makes it a little less elegant.
Actually, I can still see the occult texts as a part of Kinzo's madness. If we are to believe that the flashback scenes have some truth to them, Kinzo is truly heartbroken over losing Beatrice. His fascination with stage magic might have become mutated over the years after losing Beatrice into a desire for dark magic that could revive her, so he collected these tomes of demonology and magic. But towards the end of his life, he came to the realization that "true" magic was the magic he had known this entire time, his stage magic. The scene where he invites Genji and Shannon into the study so he can have his will written out (which I am assuming here is a flashback scene cleverly disguised as a part of the gameboard story), is him delivering his last request, put on one last grand magic show for the ghost of his beloved Beatrice, who I think was a woman who fell in love with his magic shows.
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