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Old 2010-04-27, 10:38   Link #9321
Bluemail
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Has there been any hint of Kinzo performing somewhere?
He was probably called Lord Goldsmith...

And about the goats, who of the adults would be Goat-kun?
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Old 2010-04-27, 10:41   Link #9322
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It is possible that Kinzo studied both "serious" books and stage magic textbooks. After all it is a lot more suggestive to create a stage magic show if it is based on actual mythology and occultism practices. But ultimately it seems that both Beatrice and Kinzo weren't really interested in substance but rather in appearance. Else Kinzo wouldn't have bought cheap stuff.

BTW I have the feeling that the winchesters are also replica and not the real stuff.

There is another thing to consider. the books that were auctioned were all from Kuwadorian, none of the ones in Kinzo's study survived. So it can be argued that those were actually Beatrice's books and not Kinzo's.
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Old 2010-04-27, 10:51   Link #9323
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
There is another thing to consider. the books that were auctioned were all from Kuwadorian, none of the ones in Kinzo's study survived. So it can be argued that those were actually Beatrice's books and not Kinzo's.
Yes, but we've seen from Battler's perspective that occult books do exist in Kinzo's study. They've pulled an occult book out from the bookshelves in every Episode that they lock themselves in the study, I think.

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Originally Posted by Bluemail
And about the goats, who of the adults would be Goat-kun?
First thought, Gohda, because his name sounds the closest to the English word "goat." He's also shown to be childish on several accounts, and he also fairly large and shown to be pretty strong.
On the other hand, the Japanese word for goat is "yagi," if I remember correctly, and I don't know if that has any connection to Gohda.
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Old 2010-04-27, 10:58   Link #9324
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If Winchesters are fake, they seem to be able to discharge though, making only bullets useless. We've never had a look at a bullet anyway. And this implies how they all got killed, because they had nothing to defend themselves (except by martial arts and hurling the weapons around, obviously).

Many murders are thought to be done with the shotguns, so if they're not actually working, the weapon must be something else. Never heard of pistols, but knives are mentioned and used, and a spear-shaped object is mentioned in TIPS, and the stakes (phony as well probably). And Battler's hatstand spear of course. And Rosa's handbag

They always have stakes in the spots where a gun would have shot. Is it all make-up, and all murders except those where there is another kind of wound is fake? Yeah not necessarily, because the "shotgun-wounds" could be done with a knife or spear, yes.
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Old 2010-04-27, 12:56   Link #9325
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I thought Okonogi gave a good explanation on that "without love" quote. In ep 4 he explains it in detail with Ange.
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Old 2010-04-27, 12:58   Link #9326
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Don't you guys think that goats are actually people wearing goat masks? This was actually hinted in EP2

As far as I remember goats only appear after someone has been "killed". Which means that those who supposedly are dead can take the role of "goats".
Episode 5 hints at it a bit too.

The history of Halloween does actually help with the goat mask idea. Since the idea was to dress up as monsters to scare away spirits.

EDIT:Or was that the Mexican holiday?
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Old 2010-04-27, 13:07   Link #9327
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EDIT: Whoops it's only Halloween, in Mexico they celebrate the dead and want them to return.
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Old 2010-04-27, 13:22   Link #9328
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Don't you guys think that goats are actually people wearing goat masks? This was actually hinted in EP2

As far as I remember goats only appear after someone has been "killed". Which means that those who supposedly are dead can take the role of "goats".
I think this was also strongly hinted in Episode 6
Spoiler for ep 6:


Do we have to put stuff like that into tags or not. I don't remember anymore
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Old 2010-04-27, 15:43   Link #9329
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Quote:
Don't you guys think that goats are actually people wearing goat masks? This was actually hinted in EP2

As far as I remember goats only appear after someone has been "killed". Which means that those who supposedly are dead can take the role of "goats".
The only problem with this is if the people who are 'killed' are wearing the goat masks who is wearing the masks when Kanon and Jessica are attacked in ep2. There is almost no way the 1st twilight is fake in ep2. And if they were faking it, at the time Kanon and Jessica were attacked, the others were either in the chapel still or the door was locked.
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Old 2010-04-27, 15:48   Link #9330
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
The only question I have for you is: What about the bomb?
Whoever planted the bomb was a bad magician. In some magic tricks, the magician will make something, usually a person, disappear, and then miraculously bring it back. But here, only half of the trick is done: the Ushiromiya family only disappeared, and never reappeared over the course of 12 years. A good magician would have shown that they are capable of bringing them back. If the bomb really killed them, then there was no chance at all for them to come back. This leads to another question: where did they go? Are we certain that they died? Or is it more likely that they planned on faking it, and miraculously returning 12 years later?
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Old 2010-04-27, 15:50   Link #9331
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As absurd as it seems, I think that they are all alive in the real world.
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Old 2010-04-27, 16:45   Link #9332
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I don't think the bomb is part of the magic trick .

At most maybe 5-7 people probably survived. I'm not entirely convinced that the Kuwadorian is the safe place and if it is I don't think that many people could be saved without knowing about it.

Since the only occult books we get to see are in Kinzo's room it's equally possible that Kinzo's room is "bomb proof" since it's the only room I know of that's on the third floor, which I think implies it was specially made.

However if one person survives in episode 3 it's possible that one person survives in every episode except maybe 4 due to the red.

If you add up the total of one persons surviving each episode it would add up to maybe 6 7 or maybe 8 people.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-04-27 at 16:57.
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Old 2010-04-27, 17:37   Link #9333
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Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
Whoever planted the bomb was a bad magician. In some magic tricks, the magician will make something, usually a person, disappear, and then miraculously bring it back. But here, only half of the trick is done: the Ushiromiya family only disappeared, and never reappeared over the course of 12 years. A good magician would have shown that they are capable of bringing them back. If the bomb really killed them, then there was no chance at all for them to come back. This leads to another question: where did they go? Are we certain that they died? Or is it more likely that they planned on faking it, and miraculously returning 12 years later?
Well, let's not get so caught up in ideas that we assume every murderer must follow the same thematic pattern. The bomber could be separate from everybody else.

Still, while I admit it would be quite a trick, it would also be phenomenally dickish to Ange and Eva. Eva appears genuinely convinced her husband and son are dead, and Ange's entire life is messed up by the deaths of her family. I seriously can't imagine them doing something that hurtful even if they had a good reason for faking a mass death. That, at least, doesn't strike me as a particularly good trick. So I'm pretty sure it's not a trick.

That said, "half-assed magician" does sort of describe the ritual murderer. He kills everyone according to the epitaph, but unlike the witch of the epitaph, he can't bring everybody back.
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Old 2010-04-27, 17:44   Link #9334
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I don't think the bomb is part of the magic trick .

At most maybe 5-7 people probably survived. I'm not entirely convinced that the Kuwadorian is the safe place and if it is I don't think that many people could be saved without knowing about it.

Since the only occult books we get to see are in Kinzo's room it's equally possible that Kinzo's room is "bomb proof" since it's the only room I know of that's on the third floor, which I think implies it was specially made.

However if one person survives in episode 3 it's possible that one person survives in every episode except maybe 4 due to the red.

If you add up the total of one persons surviving each episode it would add up to maybe 6 7 or maybe 8 people.
While I find the "Magician Kinzo" theory more and more appealing, I still think the bomb has every intention of killing whoever the killer has been unable to kill, if he fails.
The problem with Kinzo's study being bomb-proof is the structural problems. While his study might survive the explosion, how would it survive the collapse of the rest of the house?
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Old 2010-04-27, 17:55   Link #9335
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While this has not much to do with the current discussion, during my current re-play through episode 5, I found something that could, possibly, be a hint towards the whole "Erika does not exist" thing. It's nothing big, but after the First Twilight, with Erika doing all her detective stuff, Battler thinks:

Quote:
......I can't understand it.

...Why is "her world" so different from ours?
It's almost like she's in a separate dimension from us...
Yeah, while this might be just normal Ryuukishi narration, I found it semi-interesting.

Oh, and another thing, but this time a question. When Gaap is moving Genji during the First Twilight, she mentions that she "Can't think of anyone good" amongst those who could make a slice like the one on Genji's neck, and wonders if anyone capable of slice like that has manifested yet. Is this referring to Dlanor (which I think is unlikely, seeing that Dlanor never takes part of the murders), and if it isn't, who is it referring to?
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Old 2010-04-27, 17:58   Link #9336
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Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
Whoever planted the bomb was a bad magician. In some magic tricks, the magician will make something, usually a person, disappear, and then miraculously bring it back. But here, only half of the trick is done: the Ushiromiya family only disappeared, and never reappeared over the course of 12 years. A good magician would have shown that they are capable of bringing them back. If the bomb really killed them, then there was no chance at all for them to come back. This leads to another question: where did they go? Are we certain that they died? Or is it more likely that they planned on faking it, and miraculously returning 12 years later?
Well I think EP 2's 1st twilight can easily be fake. Battler never did take a good look at the corpses in the dark chapel room. Same thing with not taking a good look at the corpses in the dark shed. It could be possible that he was tricked. After all, she never stated that they died and the chapel itself was likely unlocked when it was first discovered.

If you notice with the games first twilight someone is always trying to hold back another group of people from seeing the bodies. EP 1 it's Natsuhi, EP 2 its Rosa and the servants and EP 3 its all the parents combined. The second group trying to see the bodies always includes Battler and the cousins as well.
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Old 2010-04-27, 17:59   Link #9337
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...I just wondered, who of Kinzo's four children would be the successor to his stage magic tradition, if any...

I once again get Rudolf -- the showiest of the four, pompous and uttering things Battler considers embarrassing like it's nothing special even when not in moments of emotional strain. Compare what little we see of Rudolf with Kinzo's speech in Ep4.

Lots of trains of thought unexpectedly and with no explanations stop at Rudolf because once you get to Rudolf, there's nowhere else to go from there.
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Old 2010-04-27, 18:06   Link #9338
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I'd say none. None of the siblings would interested in magic tricks and Kinzo doesn't consider them worthy to learn. But I think he did had a pupil in Beatrice/sayo/kanon/shannon/personX/whateveryoucallit
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Old 2010-04-27, 18:08   Link #9339
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Oh, and another thing, but this time a question. When Gaap is moving Genji during the First Twilight, she mentions that she "Can't think of anyone good" amongst those who could make a slice like the one on Genji's neck, and wonders if anyone capable of slice like that has manifested yet. Is this referring to Dlanor (which I think is unlikely, seeing that Dlanor never takes part of the murders), and if it isn't, who is it referring to?
She could be hinting at a new character, though that character apparently wasn't manifested during ep5 unless referring to Dlanor, who does have swords. But it is out of character for Dlanor to participate in murders, so I don't know.

EDIT: The other possibility is she's wondering if a particular murder weapon will manifest itself as a character. The neck cuts seem to recur in several games, so it is apparently at least one killer's established method to use a blade of some sort. Other than the cleaver, I don't know of any that we've been shown.
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Old 2010-04-27, 18:12   Link #9340
Oliver
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I'd say none. None of the siblings would interested in magic tricks and Kinzo doesn't consider them worthy to learn. But I think he did had a pupil in Beatrice/sayo/kanon/shannon/personX/whateveryoucallit
Yes, yes. But can anyone else make an entrance like Kinzo in Ep4? I expect Rudolf can.

That sounds like it could be the seed of an enmity, to me -- Rudolf seeing someone being a pupil when he should have been one.
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