AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-04-28, 03:39   Link #9401
Laserworm
Maelstorm-Fenrir
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: On Rokkenjima (I'm the 19th person)
Age: 23
Send a message via AIM to Laserworm Send a message via MSN to Laserworm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
I'd have to say Kanon. Although I don't *want* to.

At least in EP1, it's most likely him still sneaking around. EP3 he probably did kill Nanjo and led Jessica away. EP4 he may have gotten killed early.

You know what, maybe we weren't supposed to make any sense of EP4. Maybe it was the episode that showed us that none of the sequence of the events matter on the gameboard; if you know which factions want to do what you'd know the order anyways.
I really don't think of Kanon as the most. I think Nanjo is after all there are quite a few points we can blame on him, and he is a possible accomplice in many theories, because he can make people think others are 'dead.'

Ep4 was made to be hard, since people finally started to understand a bit about Umineko after the remade easier ep3. I think that the faction idea isn't to far off. I think that probably a number of people start each game board with the possibillity to commit murder. But small events on the game board cause who decides to do it, and who the victims are. This would fit with 'if you know the answer you could make your own story', and 'you can figure out the order of deaths', and 'what will happen next'
Laserworm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-28, 03:40   Link #9402
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Isn't the root cause Battler's sin from 6 years ago? What could Battler have done to cause all this?

Could running away from his responsibilities to someone like Kinzo be the cause for anything? Responsibilities to Shannon?
I keep saying that if the sin causes everything to happen it has to be against Maria because she's central to everything Beatrice does. Umineko is more christian themed and Maria is the Mary figure see: episode 2. Sinning against Maria could cause people to dress up as Beatrice it could also cause the legend to get spread more like a virus. She's like a center piece at a thanksgiving dinner. She's the key to knowing almost everything about Beatrice. I don't think the sin is against the person who is caused to disguise as Beatrice because the red says it is not between him and her, so people who do that are using cheap semantics to get around the red.

The bomb is probably related to Kinzo's contract with Beatrice rather than the sin. It explains why everything had to be destroyed. It was for interest.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-28, 03:42   Link #9403
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Isn't the root cause Battler's sin from 6 years ago? What could Battler have done to cause all this?

Could running away from his responsibilities to someone like Kinzo be the cause for anything? Responsibilities to Shannon?
No clue yet. It has to be something insignificant for Battler, so that he could forget it or only realise it's significance in Ep5, but significant in indirect consequences. Just like Ange realises how much she hurt Maria in Ep4. And Maria, who was now much more lonely, became totally dependent on Sakutaro, which triggered him being exposed to Rosa's rage, which made Maria completely change her outlook on magic, which significantly affected the attitudes of all Mariage Sorciere members.

In the same fashion, Battler's sin has to significantly change the strategic layout of the family's internal relationships, so much, that their own sins are committed or come to light or otherwise cause a cascade like an avalanche.

We have lots of clues that it is a promise to Shannon. But to work in the manner described, the ball has to proceed down from there to change the lives of every Ushiromiya in a significant manner. The buck doesn't stop with Shannon.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-28, 03:43   Link #9404
Laserworm
Maelstorm-Fenrir
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: On Rokkenjima (I'm the 19th person)
Age: 23
Send a message via AIM to Laserworm Send a message via MSN to Laserworm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I keep saying that if the sin causes everything to happen it has to be against Maria because she's central to everything Beatrice does.
What is Battler's sin against Maria? And where are there clues that point to it?
Laserworm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-28, 03:44   Link #9405
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
So you're saying that Umineko is a bit like Murder on the Orient Express, but less unified and more convoluted? That is, EVERYONE is a culprit in some form or another?
That would be what I would write if I wanted to write an epic puzzle.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-28, 03:47   Link #9406
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
What is Battler's sin against Maria? And where are there clues that point to it?
Battler has made several half joking promises to Maria in just about every episode, and when he comes back to the island it's said he's reverted back to what he was like as a kid. Maria takes jokes literally and is very serious about people keeping promises. Most of them are perverted though. Like in episode 2 when he says "I'll eat you in ten years".

I don't know where it came from, but one of the members here suggested his sin was promising to return to play with her every year, and when he didn't people dressed up as Beatrice and taught her magic to cheer her up.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-28, 03:54   Link #9407
Laserworm
Maelstorm-Fenrir
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: On Rokkenjima (I'm the 19th person)
Age: 23
Send a message via AIM to Laserworm Send a message via MSN to Laserworm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Battler has made several half joking promises to Maria in just about every episode, and when he comes back to the island it's said he's reverted back to what he was like as a kid. Maria takes jokes literally and is very serious about people keeping promises. Most of them are perverted though. Like in episode 2 when he says "I'll eat you in ten years".

I don't know where it came from, but one of the members here suggested his sin was promising to return to play with her every year, and when he didn't people dressed up as Beatrice and taught her magic to cheer her up.
As nice as that is, for ep1 it sounds like Battler didn't play with Maria 6 years ago. He says he remembers her as a cry baby. And to me taking Battler's personaity into account I don't think a 12 year old version of him would want to play much with a cry baby. But whoknows
Laserworm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-28, 03:56   Link #9408
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
As nice as that is, for ep1 it sounds like Battler didn't play with Maria 6 years ago. He says he remembers her as a cry baby. And to me taking Battler's personaity into account I don't think a 12 year old version of him would want to play much with a cry baby. But whoknows
In that case he just did it to be nice then. He didn't really want to come back or he lied knowing he wouldn't be.

The way I'd imagine it is that he promised to play something specific. Something childish or embarrassing maybe that he'd easily forget about.

Oooo Like a tea party.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-28, 03:59   Link #9409
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I don't know where it came from, but one of the members here suggested his sin was promising to return to play with her every year, and when he didn't people dressed up as Beatrice and taught her magic to cheer her up.
Halfway through Ep4, I'm actually suspecting that Maria never actually met Beatrice. She summoned her in the same fashion Ange 'summons' Maria later, possibly using a document as the source. Since she never actually saw a living Beatrice, one didn't exist prior to, at least, April 1984 when the portrait was made, and possibly didn't even exist before the very start of the game.

That is why she so readily recognises Evatrice at first. Then derecognises her because her behaviour doesn't match the pattern Maria imagined previously.

Different handwriting is the only real hangup, but - Maria gets messages in her diary. She doesn't have to actually see anyone in a dress to get them, and messages magically appearing in there would be much cooler for her.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-28, 04:00   Link #9410
Laserworm
Maelstorm-Fenrir
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: On Rokkenjima (I'm the 19th person)
Age: 23
Send a message via AIM to Laserworm Send a message via MSN to Laserworm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
In that case he just did it to be nice then. He didn't really want to come back or he lied knowing he wouldn't be.
That is possible. But where is the hint that a promise was made to Maria? Mentioning him making promises now is only a tiny hint we need at least a mention of him saying something to Maria back then, otherwise I pretty sure Knox 8th won't be happy. And even if Knox 8th is my mystery teacher would so not be. Along with others, it is just too tiny of a hint. It is mostly guesswork.
Laserworm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-28, 04:08   Link #9411
Laserworm
Maelstorm-Fenrir
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: On Rokkenjima (I'm the 19th person)
Age: 23
Send a message via AIM to Laserworm Send a message via MSN to Laserworm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Halfway through Ep4, I'm actually suspecting that Maria never actually met Beatrice. She summoned her in the same fashion Ange 'summons' Maria later, possibly using a document as the source. Since she never actually saw a living Beatrice, one didn't exist prior to, at least, April 1984 when the portrait was made, and possibly didn't even exist before the very start of the game.

That is why she so readily recognises Evatrice at first. Then derecognises her because her behaviour doesn't match the pattern Maria imagined previously.

Different handwriting is the only real hangup, but - Maria gets messages in her diary. She doesn't have to actually see anyone in a dress to get them, and messages magically appearing in there would be much cooler for her.
What about the Maria vs Erika battle in ep6. Where Maria claims This is a true event.
Laserworm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-28, 04:13   Link #9412
Kylon99
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
That is possible. But where is the hint that a promise was made to Maria? Mentioning him making promises now is only a tiny hint we need at least a mention of him saying something to Maria back then, otherwise I pretty sure Knox 8th won't be happy. And even if Knox 8th is my mystery teacher would so not be. Along with others, it is just too tiny of a hint. It is mostly guesswork.
We have a Maria who has it in her character to be extremely serious about keeping promises. I assumed it was whoever Beatrice was that imparted that seriousness into Maria.

But it could be the other way around too.
Kylon99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-28, 04:17   Link #9413
Laserworm
Maelstorm-Fenrir
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: On Rokkenjima (I'm the 19th person)
Age: 23
Send a message via AIM to Laserworm Send a message via MSN to Laserworm
Whoa Shannon.. I didn't know you knew so much about magic. I didn't even realize in ep1 she talks about the scorpion.
Laserworm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-28, 04:17   Link #9414
Kylon99
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
What about the Maria vs Erika battle in ep6. Where Maria claims This is a true event.
Damn, not enough context in that wiki. Luckily, umineco comes with lots of context:

Erika (I think): 魔法なんてあり得ません。 あなたが、ありもしないウソ話をしている可能性があります!!
Maria: これは本当の話!!

I was thinking that either George or Jessica placed the candy inside the cup for her, so to her it is real magic. And the theory was that she doesn't know she's lying when she says magic exists, because she's been constantly shown it.


Is that what the '話/hanashi' refers to?

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
Whoa Shannon.. I didn't know you knew so much about magic. I didn't even realize in ep1 she talks about the scorpion.
Ohhh yah. Shannon knows a bit but look at how George confirms what she knows as true (like how the hell did he know?) and then coaches the situation. He tells Maria to look for a charm and then also confirms that Shannon should get back in time for something...
Kylon99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-28, 04:18   Link #9415
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
What about the Maria vs Erika battle in ep6. Where Maria claims This is a true event.
That would mean Maria did experience it, and claims nothing beyond that, but whether that experience is objective or subjective, the red does not really say, does it. Certainly seeing magic done is subjective, yet true.

Though, I'd need to see a fuller translation of this scene to give a proper answer. The real problem with the idea of Maria never seeing a living Beatrice is not that red, it's Knox 8th, because Maria would need knowledge about Beatrice, preferably in diary/grimoire-vessel format, to summon her. I don't see such a hint yet.

It's just that the possibility is very tempting because at least in certain situations Maria definitely does 'summon' Beatrice. That's why she's so quiet for most of Ep1 - they're watching TV and chatting about the fools who don't understand the ceremony, I bet.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-28, 04:23   Link #9416
Laserworm
Maelstorm-Fenrir
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: On Rokkenjima (I'm the 19th person)
Age: 23
Send a message via AIM to Laserworm Send a message via MSN to Laserworm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Ohhh yah. Shannon knows a bit but look at how George confirms what she knows as true (like how the hell did he know?) and then coaches the situation. He tells Maria to look for a charm and then also confirms that Shannon should get back in time for something...
Actually they talk for a long time with Maria mentioning facts and George and Shannon acting surprised but agreeing. 'Rain' starts. (But only George and Shannon feel it?) Shannon looks at her watch and says its time for her to get back to work now.

I know I might be bashed for saying this but, Maria is a little bit of a spoiled brat don't you think?
Laserworm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-28, 04:26   Link #9417
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
I know I might be bashed for saying this but, Maria is a little bit of a spoiled brat don't you think?
I don't see how anyone can say this after Ep4.
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-28, 04:27   Link #9418
Kylon99
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
Actually they talk for a long time with Maria mentioning facts and George and Shannon acting surprised but agreeing. 'Rain' starts. (But only George and Shannon feel it?) Shannon looks at her watch and says its time for her to get back to work now.
There's a bit more than that:

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=7563

This list only includes the rose garden and beach talk.
Kylon99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-28, 04:29   Link #9419
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
I know I might bashed for saying this but, Maria is a little bit of a spoiled brat don't you think?
Not by her mother, probably.

But according to Nanjo, pretty much everyone on the island has engaged in Beatrice-supporting pranks for Maria's sake at least once in a while.

Which is more evidence for 'no living Beatrice' idea if I can only find the vessel for summoning.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-28, 04:31   Link #9420
Verg Avesta
Endless Turnless
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Ohhh yah. Shannon knows a bit but look at how George confirms what she knows as true (like how the hell did he know?) and then coaches the situation. He tells Maria to look for a charm and then also confirms that Shannon should get back in time for something...
There are lot of things like that in Umineko, actually, if one reads the episodes carefully. People talking about things that they should not know that easily, that is. One that comes in mind is in ep5, when Eva reveals her "Receipt Seal" to Natsuhi. In the scene, it's not actually Eva who does the explaining, she never gets the chance. Hideyoshi interrupts and goes on to explain what the receipt means.

Which reminds me, both Eva and Hideyoshi are very, very aggressive during that scene. Strangely so.
__________________
If not counting the spider and the dog, I'm the best!
Verg Avesta is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 20:48.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.