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Old 2010-04-28, 10:12   Link #9441
NarkNarks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Abrupt, unrelated idea.

In Ep4 escape scene, Krauss says "Naturally, for a loving family like us." to Kyrie. While it's a moment filled with pathos up the wazoo, that particular line jumped out at me. It feels... A bit unwarranted even with all the stuff we're being shown.
When I first read that I assumed he was taking the piss about the situation. The fact that their working together when usually when their all together the adults at least are at each others necks.

... It'd be one hell of a plot twist though.
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Old 2010-04-28, 10:14   Link #9442
Raiza Sunozaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Abrupt, unrelated idea.

In Ep4 escape scene, Krauss says "Naturally, for a loving family like us." to Kyrie. While it's a moment filled with pathos up the wazoo, that particular line jumped out at me. It feels... A bit unwarranted even with all the stuff we're being shown.

Well, the scene is obviously buried under many layers of metaphor and noise, but earlier on the phone, Kyrie actually calls Battler her son, and it feels more than a sentiment -- rather, it sounds like she actually knows he is and is only able to say that now. And we know there's a good chance he is.

What if Battler is actually Krauss and Kyrie's son? If he were born a few months before Jessica, which is possible, he could actually be the true heir of the Ushiromiya cousin generation.

That offers lots of interesting possibilities.
While delightfully entertaining, I honestly doubt Kyrie's the type of women who would sleep with her at-the-time lover's brother. Even more so, I don't think there's any evidence that the Sumadera family was acquainted with anyone from the Ushiromiya family, besides Rudolf.
I found Krauss' line about "a loving family" a bit of black humour by Ryuukishi, like that nothing brings a family closer that being threatened with murder.
As for Kyrie, we know from her various rants on her envy for Asumu that she has no idea that Battler is her son (assuming he is) coming to the island, and is usually not shown to be aware when she dies. She might have a gut feeling he is, but mostly I think it's just her trying to comfort Battler in a way only a mother could, especially since at that point Rudolf is apparently dead.
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Old 2010-04-28, 10:33   Link #9443
Oliver
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Such an assumption is interesting not only because of the shoujo manga style twist -- which would not be out of place considering the things we have actually seen to date -- but also because while that would make Battler a rightful heir right after Krauss, it would be impossible to publicise that fact without digging up a wardrobe full of family skeletons.

Which makes an ideal motivation to try to install him as the head by forcing him to solve the epitaph, not to mention motivation to oppose doing that.
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Old 2010-04-28, 11:18   Link #9444
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Mind you, Maria quite definitely is a prodigy otherwise. See the scene about teppou/raifuru on the test. Notice that this happened in the first grade of elementary school when she was 6. She was ahead of the school program by at least a year, possibly much more.

Unfortunately, in Japan in particular, a child prodigy is seen as a problem even more than in other countries, and her way to be one is also incompatible with the restrictive school grading system - she is smarter and better educated but can't get better grades for it. Rosa is embarrassed of her child being different rather than of her child being actually inferior to others, and imposes standards not so much strict as nonsensical, which she partly inherits from her own childhood, (which were more or less sensible for an ojousama from a rich family that Rosa was but are completely silly for a city apartment dweller with a lone mother) and partly twists into a complete mess on her own.

But if we're to be detectives, judging Rosa is not our job. What we need is to wrestle facts out of this messy narrative.
If Maria is a prodigy, it would explain why Maria is worried about the rose.
In EP1, they say that the Rose isn't healthy because it bloomed earlier and alone, and thus will wither earlier too. Maria noticed it and was sad because this rose was like her.
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Old 2010-04-28, 13:12   Link #9445
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
What if Battler is actually Krauss and Kyrie's son? If he were born a few months before Jessica, which is possible, he could actually be the true heir of the Ushiromiya cousin generation.
Geez. Two fathers and two mothers? We don't have to make it even more confusing for him do we? I think Kyrie and Krauss have a weird relationship yes, but it seems to be more of a rivalry than a friendship. I'd imagine Rudolf would only know about the mother though he'd have no knowledge about a father other than himself.
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Old 2010-04-28, 13:20   Link #9446
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
That is possible. But where is the hint that a promise was made to Maria? Mentioning him making promises now is only a tiny hint we need at least a mention of him saying something to Maria back then, otherwise I pretty sure Knox 8th won't be happy. And even if Knox 8th is my mystery teacher would so not be. Along with others, it is just too tiny of a hint. It is mostly guesswork.
Well tough. Knox's 8th can't be satisfied like that with any of the sins that have been theorized. All of them are pretty much guesswork. It can however be satisfied by being hinted to be able to cause things like the Beatrice disguise and the murders. Battler leaving the family doesn't have any hints for all the bad consequences, and denying magic as Ssol thought only has a few hints in the Manga.

There is only one time any promise has been specifically mentioned instead of hinted and that's pony theory, but that seems less possible now. It's revealed later that he got that line from Rudolf I think. Shannon also said a lot of things happened 6 years ago and that the person in question didn't want to remember so she decides not to talk about it. So there is information they know that we aren't getting. There is probably something that he did or said 6 years ago that we wouldn't be able to think of exactly since there is not a lot of information on him and 6 years ago. So therefore we have to figure out who would be most affected by a broken promise and since the promise was said to be not between him and Beatrice... Maria is the next person I'd think of who would obsess over a promise like that even if it was a joke.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-04-28 at 13:41.
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Old 2010-04-28, 13:58   Link #9447
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
and denying magic as Ssol thought only has a few hints in the Manga.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryukishi
As for the truth behind Battler's sin and putting Beatrice to sleep, plenty of hints...no, in fact, the answer has already appeared in EP1-6. Quick readers reach the answer in EP4, even more weak points are exposed in EP5, and EP6 gives a nearly definitive answer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyrie, Episode 4
You might think that there should be some trick, or that there’s some true nature behind it... If you have the time to think of something like that... it would be much more constructive to think of how not to damage the mood of whatever you’re facing... Even mistakenly... you must not say ‘In that case, try showing me magic’ ...Because to prove that, they will probably use an even more cruel way than before... to show you.
This is not the only answer but it's my theory anyway.
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Old 2010-04-28, 14:16   Link #9448
Judoh
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Well here are my hints then

Quote:
Originally Posted by episode 2
Kyrie: Anyways Maria is holding the key. The key to whether Beatrice is one of 18 people or a 19th person.

Battler:"...Maria is very stubborn right? That girl when she gets angry. It's pretty hard to make her feel better."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Episode 5

Battler: "In this game I'll finally turn the chessboard over"

Battler: "Just what on earth was Beato thinking?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by episode 2
Rosa: That's right, Mama always tells you to to keep your promises.
There are probably more I could find in 3 and 4, but I find that episode 2 is where Maria talks the most out of all the episodes. Probably because she's around Rosa and Battler most of the time.

There's a scene in episode 2 where she talks entirely about the risk Beatrice took to making her promise in the letter so I think Maria is important and she knows a lot more than we give her credit for.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-04-28 at 14:48.
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Old 2010-04-28, 14:20   Link #9449
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About that, during Battler's initial introduction of the characters he said that Rosa was the kind of person that would always keep her promises.

I guess that Battler isn't very good at understanding people.
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Old 2010-04-28, 14:26   Link #9450
Ssol
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This line from episode 6 makes it very probable that the sin is a broken promise in many people's eyes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Episode 6
From this day forward, you will become the master of this island and wait for the day that he comes to fulfill his promise.
I believe that there was a broken promise. However, that does not necessitate it being the cause of the tragedy in my opinion.
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Old 2010-04-28, 14:29   Link #9451
DgBarca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
About that, during Battler's initial introduction of the characters he said that Rosa was the kind of person that would always keep her promises.

I guess that Battler isn't very good at understanding people.
And this totally prove it.
Also, in the beginning of EP1, I find really weird that Maria imitates EVERYTHING that battler does. She doesn't do it any more after the beginning of EP1, if I remember correctly.
Also, Kyrie/Rosa/Rudolf are talking about Asumu, and Kyrie has already mean words against her, and Rosa seems to be well informed.
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Old 2010-04-28, 14:30   Link #9452
Judoh
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I'd be interested in knowing some of the dialogue Battler has about his sin in episode 6. Or what exactly the hints are.
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Old 2010-04-28, 14:33   Link #9453
Ssol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DgBarca View Post
There is also this quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battler, Episode 1
Rosa oba-san takes the bag with the present in it out from her suitcase. To think that she remembered the promise that she had apparently made last year and faithfully bought it. This kind of conscientiousness is just like Rosa oba-san. She's the kind of person who won't forget or break a promise.
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Old 2010-04-28, 14:37   Link #9454
Judoh
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I guess Rosa keeps promises to people she's close to then. Or rather it seems she keeps promises to adults better than her child. Maybe she just has trouble remembering childish promises like going to the movies and getting tickets to Delsney land.

The people she brought the tea for were Kumasawa and Natsuhi right? And She also seems to be chummy with Kyrie too. Most of the mothers seem to like her.

Besides that Battler has nothing, but good images of his family, whom he hardly knows, so it's not that surprising that his narration puts them in a good light.

EDIT: Actually if Battler is good at reading people that would be more of a reason to think Maria's diary was biased like Renall said. Is there anyone else he's read wrong besides Rosa?
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Old 2010-04-28, 14:58   Link #9455
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
This line from episode 6 makes it very probable that the sin is a broken promise in many people's eyes:

I believe that there was a broken promise. However, that does not necessitate it being the cause of the tragedy in my opinion.
I don't think there should be any doubt about that at this point.

I mean after what you see in EP5...


Quote:
Beatrice: Liar. ......I'll never trust your promises again.

Battler: Huh? When did I ever make a promise to you and lie about it...?

*series of surprised and crying pictures of Beatrice*

Beatrice: ...........Heheheh, ...*cackle*cackle*cackle*. ......After hearing you say that, hell might not be so bad. ......Ehahahahahahaha, gahahahahahaha...!! Kill us! Bernkastel, Lambdadelta...!! Hyahhahahahahahahahahahaahahahaha!!
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Old 2010-04-28, 14:59   Link #9456
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The former became the standard simply because it's a lot easier to write (I guess). there are a lot of other examples of Kanji that were simplified in japanese.
Come to think of it, Maria definitely isn't the only person associated with crosses...

Is there any way she could be connected to the Sumaderas?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
EDIT: Actually if Battler is good at reading people that would be more of a reason to think Maria's diary was biased like Renall said. Is there anyone else he's read wrong besides Rosa?
Well, assuming that one or more people on the island is planning murder, and Battler wanted to believe them all innocent... yes, he is bad at reading people.
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Old 2010-04-28, 15:01   Link #9457
Jan-Poo
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Well, assuming that one or more people on the island is planning murder, and Battler wanted to believe them all innocent... yes, he is bad at reading people.
Then count me as well, because I think he was right on that one ^^;
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Old 2010-04-28, 15:05   Link #9458
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Come to think of it, Maria definitely isn't the only person associated with crosses...

Is there any way she could be connected to the Sumaderas?
Other than Rosa being good friends with Kyrie not that I know of.

Someone told me it's revealed in episode 6 that Hideyoshi used to be a Yakuza though and George seems to know about it from talking to his friends. Eva has no idea though.

The Sumaderas are probably Yakuza, and they're connected to Okonogi foods in episode 4 too so it all pieces together when you think about it.
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Old 2010-04-28, 15:07   Link #9459
Jan-Poo
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someone told me it's revealed in episode 6 that Hideyoshi used to be a Yakuza
Uh? Whaat?!
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Old 2010-04-28, 15:07   Link #9460
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
EDIT: Actually if Battler is good at reading people that would be more of a reason to think Maria's diary was biased like Renall said. Is there anyone else he's read wrong besides Rosa?
There is, actually, a chance that Maria's diary is a complete and total fabrication, or at least that the grimoire is. It's not a very high chance, because it fits Ange's own memories, not communicated to much of anyone else, but it's source is highly questionable.

Ange got them both from 'Maria's belongings after her death'. But we know the endgame event wiped much of this stuff out - pretty much everything all the way to Kuwadorian. Ange doesn't have any physical memento of Battler other than the hair ornament he got for her. But if the guesthouse, where the guests to the island ended up and where their belongings were located was untouched by the endgame event, there would be no need for Rosa and Maria to escape in Ep2, and Maria's stuff, which was in a room right next to Battler's stuff, would be of much less interest to Ange - she could be wearing Battler's own shirt if she wanted to!

We know that Maria always carried her grimoire in the handbag, though. While a diary may have survived if it has never been on Rokkenjima, and remained in Maria's room when she left, Battler sees Maria pull the grimoire out several times. I can't see a reason why Eva could have possibly recovered Maria's handbag and then still let Ange get her hands on it if she did.
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