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Old 2010-04-28, 15:08   Link #9461
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Uh? Whaat?!
Just something I heard. It's not true then?
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Old 2010-04-28, 15:09   Link #9462
Ssol
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I don't think there should be any doubt about that at this point.

I mean after what you see in EP5...
Meta-Battler also promised that he would be the one to kill Beatrice. I haven't read anything that proves that the broken promise caused the tragedy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Come to think of it, Maria definitely isn't the only person associated with crosses...

Is there any way she could be connected to the Sumaderas?
And where are you going with this?
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Old 2010-04-28, 15:10   Link #9463
Jan-Poo
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However bodies are reduced to little shreds, it's unthinkable that whatever happened to Maria left her grimoire intact if they were together.

Quote:
Just something I heard. It's not true then?
I can't say I understood 100% of what I read. But this strikes me as something completely new. We need confirmation from someone more skilled than me.
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Old 2010-04-28, 15:12   Link #9464
Marion
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Come to think of it, Maria definitely isn't the only person associated with crosses...

Is there any way she could be connected to the Sumaderas?
Highly highly unlikely - I think we should just chalk up Maria having a cross on her crown up to her occult obsessions or just the fashion of the clothes she wore for the conference (Maria was complaining about wearing Western clothes in EP 2). In EP 1 it was mentioned that part of Kinzo's idea of Western occultism had to do with burying people when they died, so that their souls can be revived in their bodies - something has a very obvious connection to Christianity and the belief of the messiah reviving, along with the rapture. It might not be a stretch to believe that if Kinzo follows a religion then it's most likely Christianity or maybe Catholicism.


Or you could chalk it up to creepy crosses, since Kasumi isn't wearing anything resembling a cross on her outfit. Kyrie is mentioned having a sort of gothic fashion taste in the 07thexpansion's online profiles and in the profiles on the anime site, so that's probably why she has a cross on her tie.
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Old 2010-04-28, 15:13   Link #9465
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Someone told me it's revealed in episode 6 that Hideyoshi used to be a Yakuza though and George seems to know about it from talking to his friends. Eva has no idea though.
What really!? Surely not he doesn't seem the type and if he was we'd surely have some fan art somewhere......want.....
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Old 2010-04-28, 15:16   Link #9466
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Meta-Battler also promised that he would be the one to kill Beatrice. I haven't read anything that proves that the broken promise caused the tragedy.
Because of your sin, people die.

Due to your sin, a great many humans on this island die

That's good enough for me and I think there are enough hints that Battler did something to cause it.

There is also this one.

Six years ago for me, no person called Beatrice existed.
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Old 2010-04-28, 15:19   Link #9467
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Or you could chalk it up to creepy crosses, since Kasumi isn't wearing anything resembling a cross on her outfit. Kyrie is mentioned having a sort of gothic fashion taste in the 07thexpansion's online profiles and in the profiles on the anime site, so that's probably why she has a cross on her tie.
It's not just Kyrie; Battler (most probably Kyrie's son) and Amakusa (if he's not a spy for that family I'll eat my socks) also have crosses.

So why wouldn't Maria, the only other person with a connection to crosses, NOT be connected to Kyrie and/or the Sumadera family in some way?

This is my line of thinking, at any rate.
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Old 2010-04-28, 15:20   Link #9468
Ssol
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Because of your sin, people die.

Due to your sin, a great many humans on this island die

That's good enough for me and I think there are enough hints that Battler did something to cause it.

There is also this one.

Six years ago for me, no person called Beatrice existed.
But what you are saying is that the sin that is the cause of the tragedy must be the broken promise. I don't think this can be concluded yet.
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Old 2010-04-28, 15:22   Link #9469
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
But what you are saying is that the sin that is the cause of the tragedy must be the broken promise. I don't think this can be concluded yet.
I'm pretty sure Battler's sin is the starting point, and from then on because of it things spiral out of control for everyone causing many to consider murder.
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Old 2010-04-28, 15:23   Link #9470
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
However bodies are reduced to little shreds, it's unthinkable that whatever happened to Maria left her grimoire intact if they were together.
Indeed. There's only a few possibilities:
  1. Both documents are an exceedingly clever and elaborate fabrication prepared well beforehand.
  2. Maria actually survived and returned to her apartment after 'death' at least once.
  3. The handbag was hidden by Maria herself before death as a deliberate message.
  4. The handbag was separated from Maria by someone else.

All of those have huge problems. Even the second, because then Ange should have realized Maria is alive. The first assumes someone actually cares enough about the contents of a 6 year old Ange's brain to twist it for the following twelve years, and all for what?

Unfortunately Ange says nothing at all about which of the possible sets of 'Maria's belongings' she had access to after the incident and could clandestinely remove.
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Old 2010-04-28, 15:26   Link #9471
Marion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
It's not just Kyrie; Battler (most probably Kyrie's son) and Amakusa (if he's not a spy for that family I'll eat my socks) also have crosses.

So why wouldn't Maria, the only other person with a connection to crosses, NOT be connected to Kyrie and/or the Sumadera family in some way?

This is my line of thinking, at any rate.
Maria is wearing a crown from the black king in chess, which happens to have a cross on it. I think the fact that she's wearing the same crown as the black king has more symbolism than the fact that it also happens to have a cross on it. And Battler doesn't know that Kyrie is his mother, so saying that he just happens to wear crosses just because of her doesn't sound like a logical thread.

Sumadera family doesn't strike me as a family of Christian beliefs either. Especially since Kasumi implies that they torture people they do not like. It would make sense if Kasumi would be wearing a cross because she has obvious connections to the Sumadera family, while Kyrie's are pretty much cut off, but she isn't wearing one. Making the connection to the Sumadera's symbol being a cross is null if the future successor isn't even wearing the symbol on her outfit.
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Old 2010-04-28, 15:29   Link #9472
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
But what you are saying is that the sin that is the cause of the tragedy must be the broken promise. I don't think this can be concluded yet.
it doesn't have to be a promise, but knowing Ryukishi it's something abstract considering the other sins he's written about are entering the shrine storage and not giving a girl a doll.

It's simple though. Whatever it was caused a chain reactions of changes for the people on Rokken Isle. People started disguising as Beatrice people planned murder and for some reason we have a bomb confirmed. Whether the bomb is part of Kinzo's contract with Beatrice or Battler's promise is questionable.

The point is many people die due to his sin, but at the same time that doesn't mean everyone dies because of his sin.

A promise is almost guaranteed though.
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Old 2010-04-28, 15:31   Link #9473
ErenselTheJester
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I don't think a promise is guaranteed, its more than likely that its a mere event disguised as a promise to Beatrice and Ryukishi is pulling a wool over our eyes.
.
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Old 2010-04-28, 15:38   Link #9474
Marion
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Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
I don't think a promise is guaranteed, its more than likely that its a mere event disguised as a promise to Beatrice and Ryukishi is pulling a wool over our eyes.
Here's the thing - Battler's sin has to be in EP 1-4. It is extremely hinted that Beatrice has an issue with promises: she thinks breaking one is the worst thing a human can do, she says she would never break one and when Battler says he never remembered making a promise to her she says she wants to die. Hell there was an entire song at the end of EP 5 about making a promise for love when Beatrice evaporates and is dead.

One small red herring is something, but Ryukishi is literally THROWING hints about a promise being the sin. EP 6 when the mysterious narrator talks about making "Beatrice" it even mentions waiting for a promise to be fulfilled.
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Old 2010-04-28, 15:38   Link #9475
Judoh
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Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
I don't think a promise is guaranteed, its more than likely that its a mere event disguised as a promise to Beatrice and Ryukishi is pulling a wool over our eyes.
.
It doesn't matter. Whether it's an event or a promise to someone they both cause chain reactions. The reactions cause people to disguise as Beatrice. The sudden belief in the legend causes murders using the witch legend as a guise. Then B0mb

The only event you have anyway is Battler leaving the family. Otherwise we have too little information to come up with an answer that is completely satisfying.
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Old 2010-04-28, 15:38   Link #9476
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
I don't think a promise is guaranteed, its more than likely that its a mere event disguised as a promise to Beatrice and Ryukishi is pulling a wool over our eyes.
.
What is it then? It happen 6 years ago on the island. And Beatrice said that she doesn't care about Battler's family problems. And the sin means a lot to her, just look at her reaction.
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Old 2010-04-28, 15:40   Link #9477
Ssol
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
I'm pretty sure Battler's sin is the starting point, and from then on because of it things spiral out of control for everyone causing many to consider murder.
Again, I agree that Battler's sin is the cause of the tragedy. I have a very detailed theory of my own on this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
it doesn't have to be a promise, but knowing Ryukishi it's something abstract considering the other sins he's written about are entering the shrine storage and not giving a girl a doll.

It's simple though. Whatever it was caused a chain reactions of changes for the people on Rokken Isle. People started disguising as Beatrice people planned murder and for some reason we have a bomb confirmed. Whether the bomb is part of Kinzo's contract with Beatrice or Battler's promise is questionable.

The point is many people die due to his sin, but at the same time that doesn't mean everyone dies because of his sin.

A promise is almost guaranteed though.
I think it's possible that the cause of the tragedy was a broken promise. So yes, I think you're theory is valid as well.
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Old 2010-04-28, 15:46   Link #9478
Marion
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Again, I agree that Battler's sin is the cause of the tragedy. I have a very detailed theory of my own on this.

I think it's possible that the cause of the tragedy was a broken promise. So yes, I think you're theory is valid as well.
Well the sin is one of the causes. Battler even mentions something to Meta-Beatrice after Suit-Beatrice says that he doesn't care about his family issues - he wasn't obligated to come to the conference. He could have easily skipped out if he felt like it and I doubt Rudolf could do anything about it considering how bad their relationship is. What if Battler never came to the island? Would people still die, just because of his broken promise? Clearly the murderer wants him to suffer in some way if they keep leaving him until the end of October 5th as one of the last survivors. So if he never came, then what?

The sin can't be the only reason for the tragedy because of this. In EP 6 we know that the promise itself is why "Beatrice" is created and perhaps the broken sin is why the culprit ultimately abuses "Beatrice" into making her the culprit.
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Old 2010-04-28, 15:49   Link #9479
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
One small red herring is something, but Ryukishi is literally THROWING hints about a promise being the sin. EP 6 when the mysterious narrator talks about making "Beatrice" it even mentions waiting for a promise to be fulfilled.
Wait, idea.

Breaking the promise is not the sin. The very act of making the promise was the sin instead. Making this promise, otherwise purely innocent, is a sin against a third party and damages the said third party just by it being known that the promise exists! Ultimately breaking it anyway it is not 'the sin' itself, but damages Beatrice in turn! This way the promise is between Battler and whoever becomes the Suit-Beatrice, but the sin is still against someone else!
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Old 2010-04-28, 15:56   Link #9480
ErenselTheJester
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Wait, idea.

Breaking the promise is not the sin. The very act of making the promise was the sin instead. Making this promise, otherwise purely innocent, is a sin against a third party and damages the said third party just by it being known that the promise exists! Ultimately breaking it anyway it is not 'the sin' itself, but damages Beatrice in turn! This way the promise is between Battler and whoever becomes the Suit-Beatrice, but the sin is still against someone else!
I wouldn't say that, Beatrice said that she wouldn't trust another promise made by Battler again, which means he made a promise and broke it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
What is it then? It happen 6 years ago on the island. And Beatrice said that she doesn't care about Battler's family problems. And the sin means a lot to her, just look at her reaction.
I know it means alot to her, but then that's the question: who the hell is she? I'm not trying to say what it is, I'm just saying that it doesn't have to be a promise, just a starter or a catalyst for what happens presently.
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