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Old 2010-04-28, 15:56   Link #9481
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Breaking the promise is not the sin. The very act of making the promise was the sin instead.
Well... Beatrice is fickle. In other words she's not loyal in her affections. If Battler's sin is making the promise his sin would probably be prideful while Beatrice's sin would be being envious of the other party.

Oh no! Kyrie is coming back to haunt me again.
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Old 2010-04-28, 16:01   Link #9482
Ssol
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Well the sin is one of the causes. Battler even mentions something to Meta-Beatrice after Suit-Beatrice says that he doesn't care about his family issues - he wasn't obligated to come to the conference. He could have easily skipped out if he felt like it and I doubt Rudolf could do anything about it considering how bad their relationship is. What if Battler never came to the island? Would people still die, just because of his broken promise? Clearly the murderer wants him to suffer in some way if they keep leaving him until the end of October 5th as one of the last survivors. So if he never came, then what?

The sin can't be the only reason for the tragedy because of this. In EP 6 we know that the promise itself is why "Beatrice" is created and perhaps the broken sin is why the culprit ultimately abuses "Beatrice" into making her the culprit.
Yes, I would love to hear those questions answered for those who believe that the sin is a promise.

For my theory, let's see...
  • The culprit is trying to make a single person believe in the magic of the epitaph. That's why everything was shown with impossible closed rooms and the reason for the sequence of the murders.
  • In episode 1-4 Battler was chosen. In episodes 5 and 6 Erika was chosen.
  • As long as the one that was chosen believes in the epitaph's magic the murders do not necessarily have to occur.
  • As we were shown in episodes 5 and 6, there do not necessarily have to be any murders.
  • If Battler didn't return to the island then the plan would still be executed. However, a different person would be chosen to 'travel under the rules of the epitaph'.
  • I believe the culprit would avoid killing anyone if possible.
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Old 2010-04-28, 16:06   Link #9483
Oliver
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Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
I wouldn't say that, Beatrice said that she wouldn't trust another promise made by Battler again, which means he made a promise and broke it.
I guess people won't read it thoroughly even if I color-code it.

Of course he broke it! "Ultimately breaking it anyway it is not 'the sin' itself, but damages Beatrice in turn!"

Here's an example how it can possibly work:
  • Suppose you make a promise to Girl A to marry her.
  • Then, a few days later, caught up in the flow of conversation, you make a very similar promise to Girl B.
  • The second promise is a sin against Girl A all by itself, even if you ultimately fulfill the promise made to Girl A. You should not have made any such promise to Girl B because just uttering it constitutes treason towards Girl A.
  • Suppose you do ultimately marry Girl A in the end. But then you broke a promise to Girl B.
  • Marrying Girl B is not much better either, because Girl A suffers twice -- once by you making a promise incompatible with the one made to her, and once by breaking the original promise given to her.
  • But if neither promise is followed through with, the sin towards Girl A remains, and the damage inflicted on Girl B also remains!

P.S: A sacrifice to Knox 8th to satisfy it, blessed be it's name: Jessica: "A community of girls with the wrong impressions can be scary. They could have some secret feud behind your back, and hurt someone or make them cry without you noticing it, right?"
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(updated 2010-08-24)

Last edited by Oliver; 2010-04-28 at 16:26.
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Old 2010-04-28, 16:08   Link #9484
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Yes, I would love to hear those questions answered for those who believe that the sin is a promise.

For my theory, let's see...
  • The culprit is trying to make a single person believe in the magic of the epitaph. That's why everything was shown with impossible closed rooms and the reason for the sequence of the murders.
  • As long as the one that was chosen believes in the epitaph's magic the murders do not necessarily have to occur.
Uh... doesn't that mean that the only way to stop the murders is to flat out lie about what you beleive? It's not really all that interesting for the story if you ask me.

And if your trying to do that why chose someone who naturally has magic resistance?
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Old 2010-04-28, 16:09   Link #9485
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I've got an idea. Beatrice's first letter (The one Maria normally gets.) It says that Beatrice will return all that she took, how ccan she do that if she kill people. But maybe the letter suggests the fake killings. That people are going to pretend to be killed. But than the rekiller comes along and actually kills them. This fits with Beatrice's letter, I mean why does it say she will return EVERYTHING she took. She can't revive the dead...
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Old 2010-04-28, 16:13   Link #9486
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Uh... doesn't that mean that the only way to stop the murders is to flat out lie about what you beleive? It's not really all that interesting for the story if you ask me.

And if your trying to do that why chose someone who naturally has magic resistance?
What have you been reading all this time? Beatrice's motive was to convince Battler to believe in magic and learn the truth.

Why choose Battler? I think the fact that he was not supposed to be there is the primary reason he was chosen.

You have to answer what was going on in episodes 5 and 6. Why does it appear that many people are putting on an act for Erika? She's a complete outsider who was not supposed to be there.

Uninteresting story? Heh, ok then let's hear your theory and so I can comment on it.
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Old 2010-04-28, 16:18   Link #9487
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Uninteresting story? Heh, ok then let's hear your theory and so I can comment on it.
What I'm saying is it doesn't add anything interesting to the story. Believing in the witch is Battler's losing condition. Your theory doesn't help anyone stop the murders it makes them impossible for the detective to stop. There isn't even a need for a detective then.
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Old 2010-04-28, 16:31   Link #9488
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
What I'm saying is it doesn't add anything interesting to the story. Believing in the witch is Battler's losing condition. Your theory doesn't help anyone stop the murders it makes them impossible for the detective to stop. There isn't even a need for a detective then.
Well, that's just your opinion.
Anyway, I think it's an interesting story when there are multiple people plotting different things.

Of course, this doesn't make it impossible for the detective to stop the murders so I really don't have any idea what you are talking about.

The detective = the one traveling under the rules of the epitaph in this theory.

I think there are plenty of theories out there but I still want to hear everyone else's.
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Old 2010-04-28, 16:33   Link #9489
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Ok either Jessica or Shannon must be the person who calls Battler in ep4. 'Beatrice' mocks Battler's english speaking skills. She even mentions that he used to speak that way before. So many people can be cut. Next we have; what is her reasoning to speak to Battler like this. And why does she mention he used to talk like that. It seems to me only the cousins +Shannon would remember that he talked this way. (Maybe Rudolf and Kyrie too) And Battler clearly says that the voice is female, so we are left with Maria, Jessica, and Shannon. Maria just left the room so it is impossible for her to be the person on the phone. Leaving us with only 2 choices.... well I suppose Kyrie is a possiblity too.

Edit: I find it creepy that a fantasy scene in ep4 implies that Beatrice and Kinzo have sex.. *shivers* Hope it isn't true.

Last edited by Laserworm; 2010-04-28 at 16:45.
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Old 2010-04-28, 16:47   Link #9490
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Of course, this doesn't make it impossible for the detective to stop the murders so I really don't have any idea what you are talking about.
It contradicts the purpose of the human side's role. It sounds like what your saying is that the human side has to lose to win, which to me makes no sense because then the game is rigged.

There are also plenty of times Battler starts beleiving in the witch and the murders still happen in the early episodes. How much does he have to beleive to stop his suffering?

Example: episode 2: Battler says we should stop blaming the servants because it's a witch that did it. He says this to Rosa while crying. Then George says his heart is pure and all that. George & Co all die later even though Battler believes in the witch. Why?

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-04-28 at 16:58.
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Old 2010-04-28, 16:55   Link #9491
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
It contradicts the purpose of the human side's role. It sounds like what your saying is that the human side has to lose to win, which to me makes no sense because then the game is rigged.

There are also plenty of times Battler starts beleiving in the witch and the murders still happen in the early episodes. How much does he have to beleive to stop his suffering?
Well, that's not what I'm saying at all. My theory is based on a real world explanation. You are thinking too much in terms of what is shown in the meta world scenes. I think that's what your problem is.

Let me turn over the chessboard on you.

Think in terms of the real world. Are you saying that someone is not trying to make someone else believe that the murders are occuring in accordance to the epitaph?
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Example: episode 2: Battler says we should stop blaming the servants because it's a witch that did it. He says this to Rosa while crying. Then George says his heart is pure and all that. George & Co all die later even though Battler believes in the witch. Why?
That's simple to answer. There was never a plan to murder those people and set up a closed room. I believe that there was a conflict and they all died. Afterwards, the closed room was setup and the victims were staked in accordance to the epitaph. However, the closed room was not planned from the beginning because the culprit agreed to stop the murders at that point. I will go into specifics on this if I can ever get enough time to write everything up.
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Last edited by Ssol; 2010-04-28 at 17:05.
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Old 2010-04-28, 17:04   Link #9492
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Think in terms of the real world. Are you saying that someone is not trying to make someone else believe that the murders are occuring in accordance to the epitaph?
No, but what they want them to beleive about what the epitaph is saying is never really shown.

Is it that a witch is the murderer?

Is it that they want to revive someone like Beatrice or Kinzo with sacrifices?

Or what I think is more likely is that the murders are an incentive to solve the epitaph. If they wanted to murder people to show people magic exists that wouldn't make as much sense since only the Servants and Maria really talk about that.
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Old 2010-04-28, 17:10   Link #9493
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
No, but what they want them to beleive about what the epitaph is saying is never really shown.

Is it that a witch is the murderer?

Is it that they want to revive someone like Beatrice or Kinzo with sacrifices?

Or what I think is more likely is that the murders are an incentive to solve the epitaph. If they wanted to murder people to show people magic exists that wouldn't make as much sense since only the Servants and Maria really talk about that.
Im sorry but:
Whether the epitaph's riddle is solved or not, this child stands nothing to gain at all.
Regardless of whether the epitaph is solved or not, Beato has nothing to gain.


Regarding the murders, in my theory, solving the epitaph is meaningless. However, traveling under the epitaph's rules is important.
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Last edited by Ssol; 2010-04-28 at 17:23.
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Old 2010-04-28, 17:13   Link #9494
Judoh
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I never said Beatrice was the person that wanted it solved did I? Everyone else has something to gain from that. And I don't beleive the person disguising as Beatrice is the culprit in this case. She's the magic trick or a pawn.

Solving it isn't completely meaningless or they wouldn't put so much focus on it in Chiru.
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Old 2010-04-28, 17:21   Link #9495
Ssol
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I never said Beatrice was the person that wanted it solved did I? Everyone else has something to gain from that. And I don't beleive the person disguising as Beatrice is the culprit in this case. She's the magic trick or a pawn.
I don't understand your theory, I'm sorry. So are they after the gold then?
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Solving it isn't completely meaningless or they wouldn't put so much focus on it in Chiru.
I meant with respect to the murders that occur. Obviously solving the epitaph doesn't stop what happens. So in your theory, why do the fake murders still occur (real murder in Krauss's case) after the epitaph is solved?
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Old 2010-04-28, 17:27   Link #9496
Judoh
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I don't understand your theory, I'm sorry. So are they after the gold then?
I think there might be one group of people on the island who are self righteous. In other words they feel it is their job to punish people and make Battler suffer. The others want the gold and try to get people to solve the epitaph.

To me that explains why there are always two people framed in every episode. Beatrice and a red herring culprit. Someone wanted everyone to think Natuhi, Eva, Rosa, And Kinzo were criminals. And they probably have some criminal backgrounds in the financial world.
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Old 2010-04-28, 17:30   Link #9497
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I think there might be one group of people on the island who are self righteous. In other words they feel it is their job to punish people and make Battler suffer. The others want the gold and try to get people to solve the epitaph.

To me that explains why there are always two people framed in every episode. Beatrice and a red herring culprit. Someone wanted everyone to think Natuhi, Eva, Rosa, And Kinzo were criminals. And they probably have some criminal backgrounds in the financial world.
Don't forget the servants try to make Kanon out as Nanjo and Kumasawa's killer in ep2.
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Old 2010-04-28, 17:35   Link #9498
Ssol
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I think there might be one group of people on the island who are self righteous. In other words they feel it is their job to punish people and make Battler suffer.
If they want to make Battler suffer how could they have predicted that he would show up at the conference?
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The others want the gold and try to get people to solve it.
Well, that's what was one of the suggested the motives back in episode 1 by the adults. I would be very disappointed if this turns out to be one of the motives in the end.
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To me that explains why there are always two people framed in every episode. Beatrice and a red herring culprit. Someone wanted everyone to think Natuhi, Eva, Rosa, And Kinzo were criminals. And they probably have some criminal backgrounds in the financial world.
Remember, 'Beatrice' killed Battler at the end of episode 4. I agree that 'Beatrice' is a red herring culprit in some of the cases but 'Beatrice' is not just one individual person.
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Old 2010-04-28, 17:39   Link #9499
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
If they want to make Battler suffer how could they have predicted that he would show up at the conference?
In ep5 it was revealed that Battler calls Jessica a week or so before the conference and tells her his is going to be at it.

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Well, that's what was one of the suggested the motives back in episode 1 by the adults. I would be very disappointed if this turns out to be one of the motives in the end.
Why would that be dissapointing. The motive is supposed to have clues that suggest it and that motive is very vaild. Greed can easily lead to murder. I would only be dissapointed if it was so far off thing that was only vaguely hinted at once, or there were no clues at all.
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Old 2010-04-28, 17:45   Link #9500
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In ep5 it was revealed that Battler calls Jessica a week or so before the conference and tells her his is going to be at it.
The letters in the bottles. Battler was there in both stories. They are pretty complex murder mysteries after all. From the way they were described I don't think someone wrote both of them within a week:
Quote:
Many scraps of paper had been stuffed into both of the wine bottles. It was an extensive notebook written by someone calling themselves Ushiromiya who wasn’t Maria, and which told of the events starting the day before the accident and up until the day of the accident in a diary-like way.

And its contents had been the beginning of ‘the Witch’s Legend Serial Murder Incident”, as well as ‘the Golden Witch Beatrice’s Puzzle’.

This bizarre diary-style notebook described how the Ushiromiya family members, nailed down on the island by the typhoon, were caught up in a ceremony for the resurrection of a witch, and killed one by one in inexplicable ways. And in the end, the Golden Witch Beatrice revived, and swallowed up everything into the Golden Land. ......It was written almost as though it was a complete account of the events on that day. Also, it depicted the current situation on the island at the time in great detail, and the former servants who used to work for the Ushiromiya family gave testimony that it had definitely been written by a human who knew the inside details of the island.

Inside both bottles were diary-style notebooks on which was written an account from the day before the accident until the day of the accident. However, while both of their contents were about the same two day period, they were completely different. It was as though one was the truth and one was a lie. Or perhaps both were lies. In any event, the beginnings and endings alone matched each other. In the beginning, the 18 relatives are sealed up on the island by the typhoon. And in the ending, everyone dies, the Golden Witch is revived, and everything is swallowed up into the Golden Land.

The contents of both message bottles wrote about the events of the day before the accident and the day of the accident. But the details were completely different. Both diaries outline a serial murder following the epitaph of the witch, but the order of the sacrifices, the ways they died, and even ‘the tale of the two days’ was different. However, in both, everyone died in the end and the witch revived, making for the same circumstances.

If there had been one message bottle, claiming that its story was the truth would be reckless, but not impossible. However, because there were two, that made both of them doubtful. If someone was plotting to make out those two days to be the work of a witch, that was really superfluous. And because there were two, it suggested that an undiscovered third one, or possibly even more might exist. ......In other words, the two differing contents made it harder and harder to swallow. But despite that, the contents of both matched in that they told of a witch in the tale. In other words, does that mean that this is what the writer wanted to tell us.........?

...in both tales that had been discovered, Eva oba-san had been included among the victims.
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Why would that be dissapointing. The motive is supposed to have clues that suggest it and that motive is very vaild. Greed can easily lead to murder. I would only be dissapointed if it was so far off thing that was only vaguely hinted at once, or there were no clues at all.
Well, it was probably tone of first theories I came up with and doesn't require a lot of thought. It pretty much is given to us. It's a valid theory but for me... disappointing.
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