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Old 2010-04-28, 18:56   Link #9521
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Look, I think it's highly probable that this theory could be totally wrong. I'm not saying I'm right about it. I think it's a long shot actually.
No no the number is definitely important. I beleive that Beatrice's core is probably the disaster, but that might be wrong too. I like the idea because it explains the importance of 07151129 and I don't think that it's a coincidence like you said.

But actually I'm thinking they can both be true. if 07151129 is her core than if the author or the bomb is related to that it has something to do with those accounts with all that money.
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Old 2010-04-28, 18:59   Link #9522
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Well, ep4's entire Ange section is basically a giant Ange/Maria pity party. I can't entirely say this isn't what it was meant for in the first place, chronotrig has his own theory as to what it's there for, but isn't it also possible that it's there to distract us?

After all, the goal is to make us feel sympathy for Maria. We certainly were inclined to do that leading up to ep4, which just drives it home. All the while, 1998 is going on around us, but what's really happening? It's pretty suspicious. A lot of things are mentioned casually, like they aren't important. Like the police barricades Ange slips past on Rokkenjima; what's going on with that? Obviously the explosion theory suggests the police did come by and investigate, but why do they think the island is a dangerous area? That sort of thing.

Ange would be inclined to overlook things she doesn't see as important. We as the readers would be inclined to overlook things that do not fit our patterns from our reading of the 1986 sections. It could be intentional misdirection for both the characters (who are not properly equipped to notice clues) and the readers (who are looking at the wrong things).
So basically your saying that Maria's grimore is a red herring?
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Old 2010-04-28, 19:01   Link #9523
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Well, ep4's entire Ange section is basically a giant Ange/Maria pity party. I can't entirely say this isn't what it was meant for in the first place, chronotrig has his own theory as to what it's there for, but isn't it also possible that it's there to distract us?
Definitely.

Two ways in which mystery authors mislead readers is by a) bringing up important details as though they were unimportant and b) playing off of assumptions they know will be made.

For example, although it isn't in Ep4 (and I'm not entirely sure it's there at all, so I need to check at some point) apparently, in the Ep3 Hidden Tea Party, Eva is mentioned to have "died in the same way Kinzo did"... even though, at that point, we're still supposed to think that he's alive.

We need to go through the beginning of Ep4 again and look for things like that. Things mentioned casually and out of the blue. We might find something very interesting indeed.
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Old 2010-04-28, 19:02   Link #9524
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No, it's clearly important, but I think less important than what Maria's life meant to Maria is what the grimoire does to Ange. If you believe it's a coincidence she just lucked out and got her hands on it, that's one thing, but if someone wanted to make sure that she got it, they would probably have known it would have a profound effect on her. The connection of loneliness between Maria and Ange is so heavily-emphasized, even though comparatively speaking Maria's situation cannot possibly have really been as bad as Ange's is.
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Old 2010-04-28, 19:04   Link #9525
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Yeah, whoever wrote episode 4 clearly did not want to portray Kyrie's daughter as having a good life.
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Old 2010-04-28, 19:07   Link #9526
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Well, Ange feels a strong connection to Maria and great guilt for her. But what the hell is Ange feeling sorry for Maria for? Yeah, Maria's writing suggests a troubled kid, but she still loved her mother, the only person she had in the world... oh and she had her mother. Ange's mother is dead, and has been for pretty much her entire developing life.

Given all the other stuff, it's improbable that anyone would think Maria had it even close. But Ange does feel that way.
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Old 2010-04-28, 19:09   Link #9527
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Definitely.

Two ways in which mystery authors mislead readers is by a) bringing up important details as though they were unimportant and b) playing off of assumptions they know will be made.
Those both fall under Misdirection. Another example of it is to shift focus off of the clue. Normally through action, drama, or shaking the readers emotions. There are other ways, but I don't feel like pulling up the rest mentioned in my mystery teacher's lecture.
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Old 2010-04-28, 19:16   Link #9528
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Actually now that I think about it. Takano was burned and was also supposedly identified with dental records I think. It's actually possible that Maria is still alive. Now that would be one scary twist... if all that background information suggesting she wasn't the culprit was completely false...
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Old 2010-04-28, 19:19   Link #9529
Kaisos Erranon
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Those both fall under Misdirection. Another example of it is to shift focus off of the clue. Normally through action, drama, or shaking the readers emotions. There are other ways, but I don't feel like pulling up the rest mentioned in my mystery teacher's lecture.
I'm sorry I'm not a literary scholar. I'm just saying what I've observed through experience.

Umineko does do the latter of what you said a lot, though. We'll see or hear something really interesting or contradictory and then it's all HOLY SHIT PEOPLE ARE DEAD GOLDENSLAUGHTERER AAAAAAAAAAAAAAH and when things finally calm down both the story and the reader have forgotten that little detail from before.

Quote:
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Actually now that I think about it. Takano was burned and was also supposedly identified with dental records I think. It's actually possible that Maria is still alive.
But Takano had those records manipulated, right? Is there someone in the cast with enough power to do that for Maria?

Okonogi, maybe? >_>
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Old 2010-04-28, 19:20   Link #9530
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Actually now that I think about it. Takano was burned and was also supposedly identified with dental records I think. It's actually possible that Maria is still alive. Now that would be one scary twist... if all that background information suggesting she wasn't the culprit was completely false...
That would mean that one of the others had to have the same dental records as Maria. Because it would be unheard of for Maria to have brought a jaw or something with her.
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Old 2010-04-28, 19:25   Link #9531
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
But Takano had those records manipulated, right? Is there someone in the cast with enough power to do that for Maria?

Okonogi, maybe? >_>
And why would Okonogi manipulate the records of a little nine year old girl?

He's only the president of a food distribution company that works with Hideyoshi. I don't think he could change dental records so easily. With Higurashi it was different, mostly because Takano's cover was a nurse - manipulating her own records wouldn't be difficult.
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Old 2010-04-28, 19:30   Link #9532
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
And why would Okonogi manipulate the records of a little nine year old girl?

He's only the president of a food distribution company that works with Hideyoshi. I don't think he could change dental records so easily. With Higurashi it was different, mostly because Takano's cover was a nurse - manipulating her own records wouldn't be difficult.
I agree it's pretty ridiculous. Even if it could be done. It's just an excuse that makes Maria really really suspicious.

Takano was also assassinated too in all, but the last game by the japanese government. so her faking her death didn't stop that.
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Old 2010-04-28, 19:31   Link #9533
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I'm sorry I'm not a literary scholar. I'm just saying what I've observed through experience.

Umineko does do the latter of what you said a lot, though. We'll see or hear something really interesting or contradictory and then it's all HOLY SHIT PEOPLE ARE DEAD GOLDENSLAUGHTERER AAAAAAAAAAAAAAH and when things finally calm down both the story and the reader have forgotten that little detail from before.
Misdirection is a nasty trick to hide clues because if the reader isn't careful they can fall for it time and time again, even when rereading the story. A few other ways to hide clues are; Mixing a clue in with similar objects, and Hidding a clue in plain sight. There are others, but I don't feel like searching through the lecture.
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Old 2010-04-28, 19:32   Link #9534
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
But Takano had those records manipulated, right? Is there someone in the cast with enough power to do that for Maria?

Okonogi, maybe? >_>
Maria was 9 years old. She probably doesn't have a single filling, never had braces, and pretty much never had any restorative dental work or even an xray on record. What dental records, in 1986 with no DNA analysis? The only thing that can be identified from that jaw is the age of the deceased... at +-4 years error, I believe.

No need to fake anything.
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Old 2010-04-28, 19:34   Link #9535
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Maria was 9 years old. She probably doesn't have a single filling, never had braces, and pretty much never had any restorative dental work or even an xray on record. What dental records, in 1986 with no DNA analysis? The only thing that can be identified from that jaw is the age of the deceased... at +-4 years error, I believe.

No need to fake anything.
Umineko and Higurashi seem messed up a times. They seem to have stuff we have, but it is still suppossed to be in the 1980's? And we were never given any hint to suggest that Maria's jaw was fake.
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Old 2010-04-28, 19:39   Link #9536
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This is really just an addendum to what Renall said, but there's another 1998 thing that's been bugging me for a while: the method for sending the letters. Like Ange said, the sender could have just arranged for the letters to be delivered on a specific date. They could still have falsified the sender without any problem, and even mailed it from the same place. So why did Beato go out of her way to mail it like that?

I think it was Mammon or Sakutarou who said something like "That's definitely the sort of vicious and uncertain prank that Beato would enjoy pulling." In retrospect, doesn't that line kind of sound like "I wouldn't put it past Grandfather"?
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Old 2010-04-28, 19:43   Link #9537
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Umineko and Higurashi seem messed up a times. They seem to have stuff we have, but it is still suppossed to be in the 1980's? And we were never given any hint to suggest that Maria's jaw was fake.
But we were given hints that her diary survived unscathed, and that her body the diary was on did not survive in a fragment bigger than this jaw. Do we need a separate hint to conclude the only proof of her death may be false somehow? I don't think so. Dental records are a good identification mechanism if they are extensive and detail numerous restorative work, but not otherwise. Maria is too young to have certainly had any restorative work on her teeth. Therefore this identification is suspect.

We do need some kind of hint to guess who's jaw it really might be, though, if it's not Maria.
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Old 2010-04-28, 19:43   Link #9538
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This is really just an addendum to what Renall said, but there's another 1998 thing that's been bugging me for a while: the method for sending the letters. Like Ange said, the sender could have just arranged for the letters to be delivered on a specific date. They could still have falsified the sender without any problem, and even mailed it from the same place. So why did Beato go out of her way to mail it like that?

I think it was Mammon or Sakutarou who said something like "That's definitely the sort of vicious and uncertain prank that Beato would enjoy pulling." In retrospect, doesn't that line kind of sound like "I wouldn't put it past Grandfather"?
Ange getting one is what bugs me. Because it makes it seem like they knew Ange wasn't going to go to the conference. But if they did know that we only have 2 possible people for sending 'Ange's letter' Kyrie and Rudolf.
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Old 2010-04-28, 19:44   Link #9539
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I wonder if anybody has ever thought of this before, but couldn't it be possible that the senders were actually the people whose names were on the letters?

So we have Rudolf sending a letter to himself

Nanjo sending a letter to himself

And Kumasawa sending a letter to himself.

if you think about it that's the only way for those letters to simultaneously be sent at the same time. If it was one person doing it he would need to be at 3 places at once right? The question is why?
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Old 2010-04-28, 19:46   Link #9540
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But we were given hints that her diary survived unscathed, and that her body the diary was on did not survive in a fragment bigger than this jaw. Do we need a separate hint to conclude the only proof of her death may be false somehow? I don't think so. Dental records are a good identification mechanism if they are extensive and detail numerous restorative work, but not otherwise. Maria is too young to have certainly had any restorative work on her teeth. Therefore this identification is suspect.

We do need some kind of hint to guess who's jaw it really might be, though, if it's not Maria.
My mystery teacher would say so, but then again Umineko is supposed to be really hard. But why is Maria never found? Or is she taken away for something and her alive status is hidden?
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