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Old 2010-04-28, 19:49   Link #9541
Dlanor .A. Nox
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I think those letters can mean either two things. It was either payment for Kumasawa's and Nanjo's services or an apology to their families if they died. It's a double meaning in case one of two things happened during the two days. As for Rudolph's well that is pretty much the stump in the middle of that line of thinking lol.
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Old 2010-04-28, 19:51   Link #9542
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
We do need some kind of hint to guess who's jaw it really might be, though, if it's not Maria.
I wonder if the reason they thought it was her jaw was because of the size of the jaw and not because of dental records. A child's jaw would be much different from an adult's especially since she doesn't even have wisdom teeth yet.
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Old 2010-04-28, 19:54   Link #9543
Laserworm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I wonder if the reason they thought it was her jaw was because of the size of the jaw and not because of dental records. A child's jaw would be much different from an adult's especially since she doesn't even have wisdom teeth yet.
She would also probably still have a few baby teeth too.
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Old 2010-04-28, 19:56   Link #9544
Oliver
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if you think about it that's the only way for those letters to simultaneously be sent at the same time. If it was one person doing it he would need to be at 3 places at once right? The question is why?
Um. They were all sent from Niijima, on the same day, to very different fake addresses, with correct return addresses, so when fake addresses properly bounced, they arrived back to the return addresses. One person can do it just fine.
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Old 2010-04-28, 19:59   Link #9545
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Um. They were all sent from Niijima, on the same day, to very different fake addresses, with correct return addresses, so when fake addresses properly bounced, they arrived back to the return addresses. One person can do it just fine.
Wait weren't they all sent to a fake address at Niijima with an area code that was 1234567 or something like that? that's how I remember it.
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Old 2010-04-28, 20:00   Link #9546
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I wonder if the reason they thought it was her jaw was because of the size of the jaw and not because of dental records. A child's jaw would be much different from an adult's especially since she doesn't even have wisdom teeth yet.
It is. It is possible to reliably determine sex from the jaw, considerably less reliably determine age. Basically the only jaws on the island that could possibly replace Maria's are Shannon's, and Kanon's if he's actually female. The age difference between them is nevertheless significant, and could still be detected.
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Old 2010-04-28, 20:04   Link #9547
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Wait weren't they all sent to a fake address at Niijima with an area code that was 1234567 or something like that? that's how I remember it.
Sorry, no. From my notes, just written:
  • Several days after the letter comes. Sender is Nanjo junior. Destination is Rebun Island in Hokkaido, northernmost point of mainland Japan. Recipient Nanjo elder. Hokkaido, Rebun Island, Rebun County, Rebun City, 1-2-34-567. Postmarked on Oct 3 on Niijima. Returns to Nanjo junior's return address after 'more than a week'. Inside: key marked A112, note with 07151129 and location of a bank office, card.
  • Deposit box is anonymous if pin, key and card are present. "at least 20" boxes are opened by that card. (but not the pin) Box contains cash. Nanjo junior estimates 100 million yen.
  • Handwriting on the note matches Diary-Beatrice.
  • Kumasawa's son got a similar envelope. Destination is different: Okinawa Prefecture, Yaeyama County, Yonaguni City, 1-2-34-567. Westernmost point of Japan. Key number is A113. Contents presumed to be the same but unknown.
  • Ange mysteriously gets a headache when remembering an envelope could have possibly come to her as well. The recipient is supposedly Rudolf. I think this headache is more important...
  • There is a service to set an arrival date. Interestingly, Sakutarou is the one to notice that.
  • Sakutaro: "Beatrice would find it more interesting to do it through an uncertain method instead of one that was absolutely certain." Hmm.
  • Maria's diary attributes the phrase "Traps where you don't know who will get caught, or even whether anyone will get caught at all, are more thrilling and interesting" to Beatrice.

EDIT: Oh, notice that it's not an area code, it's a lot number. Japanese street addresses don't have streets and number lots in very complicated ways.
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Old 2010-04-28, 20:12   Link #9548
Judoh
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The headache sounds like something that could happen if you were under hypnosis at one point. Well it's just a thought... if somebody was interested in mind control they could make you have a forced headache or even make you puke when you try and remember things your not supposed to. I guess you could call it an affect of brainwashing.
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Old 2010-04-28, 20:13   Link #9549
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
The headache sounds like something that could happen if you were under hypnosis at one point. Well it's just a thought... if somebody was interested in mind control they could make you have a forced headache or even make you puke when you try and remember things your not supposed to. I guess you could call it an affect of brainwashing.
Hypnosis does not work that way and brainwashing isn't real.
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Old 2010-04-28, 20:16   Link #9550
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Hypnosis does not work that way and brainwashing isn't real.
It was just a thought. People seem to think that the headaches are important, and since in a lot of cases they seem to be triggered by memories I thought it made sense. It doesn't have to be true, but it could be true in a fictional story as a minor point. Not everything that happens in fictions happens in real life anyway.
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Old 2010-04-28, 20:20   Link #9551
Kaisos Erranon
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It was just a thought. People seem to think that the headaches are important, and since in a lot of cases they seem to be triggered by memories I thought it made sense. It doesn't have to be true, but it could be true in a fictional story as a minor point.
I'd think that "repressed memories" are far more likely to show up than "brainwashing", but neither are real.

The former, at least, makes for a better story.
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Old 2010-04-28, 20:35   Link #9552
Marion
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
The headache sounds like something that could happen if you were under hypnosis at one point. Well it's just a thought... if somebody was interested in mind control they could make you have a forced headache or even make you puke when you try and remember things your not supposed to. I guess you could call it an affect of brainwashing.
I highly doubt brain washing. A letter addressed to Rudolf isn't exactly the most important thing to a little girl who just lost her entire family, so it's easy to imagine that Ange just forgot about it until that time.
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Old 2010-04-28, 21:39   Link #9553
rogerpepitone
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Or if you don't accept that then Since Hurricanes are often named after women he was killed by a Hurricane named Beatrice.
It was typhoon Carmen, not Beatrice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_Pa...Typhoon_Carmen
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Old 2010-04-28, 21:54   Link #9554
Jan-Poo
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there has never been an Hurricane named Beatrice, some months ago I actually checked and found out there is a preset list of names that can be used to name Hurricanes and Beatrice isn't in it.

About Maria's "piece of jaw", the ending scroll specify that this was one of the first cases where one body's identity was recognized through dental records.

Quote:
But we were given hints that her diary survived unscathed, and that her body the diary was on did not survive in a fragment bigger than this jaw. Do we need a separate hint to conclude the only proof of her death may be false somehow? I don't think so. Dental records are a good identification mechanism if they are extensive and detail numerous restorative work, but not otherwise. Maria is too young to have certainly had any restorative work on her teeth. Therefore this identification is suspect.

We do need some kind of hint to guess who's jaw it really might be, though, if it's not Maria.
You do good at being suspicious, but your off the tracks, imho.

-If Maria isn't dead, then someone wants to make everyone believe so.
-If they could use bribery or manipulation, they wouldn't need to make up the story of the jaw. they'd find something by far more convincing, like a whole fake body falsely recognized as Maria's.
-Therefore the fragment of the jaw was intended to fool everyone
-I had a teeth imprint at the age of 6 and I was born the same year as Maria so it's definitely nowhere close to be unlikely.


The jaw's bone fragment is fake, the teeth are true. The one who planned this sham knew that due to the situation the police would use dental records to identify the corpse. So the culprit needed someone's teeth, and there was only person whom could be deprived of her teeth without harsh consequences. Or more precisely, only one person who could have their teeth at disposal to begin with, especially if she was told to prepare them. And that person was Maria. Because children at that age tend to change their teeth.
Quite conveniently the only one who could be identified by the police, was Maria.
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Old 2010-04-28, 22:09   Link #9555
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
About Maria's "piece of jaw", the ending scroll specify that this was one of the first cases where one body's identity was recognized through dental records.
Well that's what we're questioning...

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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
But we were given hints that her diary survived unscathed, and that her body the diary was on did not survive in a fragment bigger than this jaw. Do we need a separate hint to conclude the only proof of her death may be false somehow? I don't think so. Dental records are a good identification mechanism if they are extensive and detail numerous restorative work, but not otherwise. Maria is too young to have certainly had any restorative work on her teeth. Therefore this identification is suspect.

We do need some kind of hint to guess who's jaw it really might be, though, if it's not Maria.

I think it's a pretty big miracle that she had any dental records at all at that young of an age. But I think a child's jaw would be drastically different from an adult's or a teenagers so I'm not really complaining.

I also don't think Ryukishi would think that hard since he didn't do much research on anatomy to portray Nanjo's knowledge as a doctor very well. Oh well...
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Old 2010-04-28, 22:21   Link #9556
SeagullCrazy
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post

The jaw's bone fragment is fake, the teeth are true. The one who planned this sham knew that due to the situation the police would use dental records to identify the corpse. So the culprit needed someone's teeth, and there was only person whom could be deprived of her teeth without harsh consequences. Or more precisely, only one person who could have their teeth at disposal to begin with, especially if she was told to prepare them. And that person was Maria. Because children at that age tend to change their teeth.
Quite conveniently the only one who could be identified by the police, was Maria.
So Beatrice = the tooth fairy now?
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Old 2010-04-28, 22:22   Link #9557
Jan-Poo
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Why it is so strange for Maria to have a dental record? Teeth imprints are required to make movable dental braces and children of that age are not so unlikely to need them. I did...
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Old 2010-04-28, 22:22   Link #9558
Judoh
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So Beatrice = the tooth fairy now?
Hey we had Beatrice = Santa already. Why not?
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Old 2010-04-29, 01:31   Link #9559
kaitwospirit
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Dental x-rays would provide enough information to identify teeth and perhaps also Maria's jaw, depending on the type of x-ray. Many children have their teeth x-rayed as often as six months because their teeth are growing and changing so rapidly.

I don't think it would be plausible to use a false jaw and real (baby) teeth for a variety of reasons: baby teeth are different in shape and size from adult teeth so the mouth would look like it belonged to a much younger child than Maria, any act of gluing teeth to a jaw would leave evidence of the gluing, and even if it didn't leave traces, it would be nearly impossible to arrange the teeth on the jaw in such a way that they could identify the fragment using dental records unless they actually had access to Maria's dental records because spacing and angles are also used in these kinds of investigations. I think we have to assume the jaw fragment is real.
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Old 2010-04-29, 02:45   Link #9560
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Why it is so strange for Maria to have a dental record? Teeth imprints are required to make movable dental braces and children of that age are not so unlikely to need them. I did...
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaitwospirit View Post
Dental x-rays would provide enough information to identify teeth and perhaps also Maria's jaw, depending on the type of x-ray. Many children have their teeth x-rayed as often as six months because their teeth are growing and changing so rapidly.
If she had x-rays or imprints made, sure, the identification could be pretty much perfect. I'm just arguing that it would not be unusual for her not to have any dental record worthy of note -- or only have a record sufficiently naturally flawed for misidentification to occur with a fragment of Shannon's jaw. Depends on which fragment it was and how big...

Identifying the jaw of any of the siblings would be pretty much automatic, with how much restorative work people accumulate by their 50s. Why is it that the one body identified by dental records is also the one with the shortest possible dental record among them all, and the one with the highest chance of being misidentified?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
-If Maria isn't dead, then someone wants to make everyone believe so.
One doesn't really follow from the other. It could have been a natural misidentification of Maria as dead.

Notice that for Maria not to be dead after Ep3 she has to defeat the red, that's the first time she is dead before endgame rolls in. And Ep4 1998 is supposedly a future that remains after Ep3, or at least we're obviously meant to assume that.

Mysteriously, even then it still revolves around Maria.
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