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Old 2010-04-29, 02:46   Link #9561
LyricalAura
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Alright, I'm in a bit of a fantasy mood today, and I came up with a motive for Team Beatrice.

The ghost of Beato-2 exists on the island, and can appear to people who have a low anti-magic toxin level (that is, people who believe in her). At the outset of all games, the people who can see or otherwise sense her are Maria, Kanon, Shannon, Genji, and Kumasawa. Shannon and Beato were both originally interested in Battler, but six years ago, Beato observed Battler promising Shannon that he would return to the island, and also witnessed him talking about his ideal woman. After hearing about that, Shannon gave up her interest in Battler and told Beato she could have him.

Using her vast knowledge of mystery novels, Beato hatched a fake murder plan with the servants in order to make Battler believe in her, which would in turn allow him to see her. They planned to use Kinzo's gold to bribe everyone on the island into cooperating. However, Battler didn't come back for six years, and Beato believed that he'd broken his promise. When she learned that he was coming back for the 1986 conference, she decided to put the plan in motion anyway, but now she also wanted to confront him and see if he even remembered the promise he'd made (although he hadn't made it to her).

The plan gets hijacked by a real killer in every episode, but in EP2 and EP4, Battler still ends up completely losing his magic resistance due to the murders. This is why Beato is able to manifest to him at the end of both games. In EP2 she explains everything to him, but in EP4 she doesn't know any real murders have occurred yet, so she goes ahead with confronting him about his sin.

In EP5 and EP6, Battler apologizes to Shannon about breaking his promise early on October 4th, so Beato feels bad about doubting him and abandons the plan to confront him. However, the fake death plot is already in motion at that point, so Battler is brought into the fold and the plot is repurposed.
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Old 2010-04-29, 03:07   Link #9562
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
The ghost of Beato-2 exists on the island, and can appear to people who have a low anti-magic toxin level (that is, people who believe in her). At the outset of all games, the people who can see or otherwise sense her are Maria, Kanon, Shannon, Genji, and Kumasawa. Shannon and Beato were both originally interested in Battler, but six years ago, Beato observed Battler promising Shannon that he would return to the island, and also witnessed him talking about his ideal woman. After hearing about that, Shannon gave up her interest in Battler and told Beato she could have him.
I wouldn't put exactly this much supernatural past Ryukishi, because otherwise, anything 'summoned' the way Ange does it would be impossible for anyone else to experience, which would wreck Maria's belief far more readily than what Ange told her. I'm not sure it's quite exactly this simple (see my proposition about the nature of the sin a few pages up the thread) but I'm sure a certain objective element to subjective mystical phenomena must exist for them to work as described.

A proper Beatrice-2 ghost of any kind would be sufficient.
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Old 2010-04-29, 03:18   Link #9563
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
*snip*
A pony theory that's workable under the red. Neat.
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Old 2010-04-29, 03:37   Link #9564
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
A pony theory that's workable under the red. Neat.
We already had one of those with Jessica. The white horse reference is in her japanese character bio anyway. The link is a far ways back..., but it's in this thread that I'm certain.
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Old 2010-04-29, 03:40   Link #9565
Oliver
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We already had one of those with Jessica. The white horse reference is in her japanese character bio anyway. The link is a far ways back..., but it's in this thread that I'm certain.
The white horse and gratuitous English are very clearly a Rudolfism which Battler picked up sometime when he was ten or so. In the end, all roads lead to Rudolf and disappear into nothingness..
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Old 2010-04-29, 03:45   Link #9566
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
The white horse and gratuitous English are very clearly a Rudolfism which Battler picked up sometime when he was ten or so. In the end, all roads lead to Rudolf and disappear into nothingness..
Right after Shannon repeats it Jessica says he was full of those lines back then so the white horse thing is definitely not the only one he used. Rudolf really is a cheeky bastard he was probably telling Battler to do all the wrong things to get him in trouble.
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Old 2010-04-29, 03:58   Link #9567
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
We already had one of those with Jessica. The white horse reference is in her japanese character bio anyway. The link is a far ways back..., but it's in this thread that I'm certain.
No, the original pony theory assumed an actual Beatrice. Not that Jessica doesn't work, of course. (And not that her character song isn't full of Beato-ish lines.)
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Old 2010-04-29, 04:38   Link #9568
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Right after Shannon repeats it Jessica says he was full of those lines back then so the white horse thing is definitely not the only one he used. Rudolf really is a cheeky bastard he was probably telling Battler to do all the wrong things to get him in trouble.
Actually, I cannot fault Rudolf for this parenting strategy, if that is in any way related to why Rudolf is reported to be so successful with women -- it's a very important survival skill.
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Old 2010-04-29, 07:13   Link #9569
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
One doesn't really follow from the other. It could have been a natural misidentification of Maria as dead.
That is extremely unlikely. You'd have to think that a piece of jawbone of "who knows who" just happened to be similar enough to be mistaken for Maria's. And Maria can't possibly be alive and have lived for 12 years without anyone knowing it if there wasn't someone that provided her a new identity and cared for her all that time.

Quote:
And Ep4 1998 is supposedly a future that remains after Ep3, or at least we're obviously meant to assume that.
Yes Ryukishi wanted us to believe so, but that's the kind of trick he would pull on us. There is really nothing that proves that the future we see is a direct consequence of EP3, and if we believe in what we have seen in EP6, EP3 is just a story Hachijo wrote in order to give a scenario compatible with Eva's survival in the real world.

While Hachijo claims to have arrived to the truth, the fact that she later wrote completely different stories should be proof enough that what she writes aren't the perfect accounts of what happened on Rokkenjima. So can we really say that her first story narrates what really happened in her world 12 years prior? That's quite improbable, I'd say.

From the pow of Ange, Hachijo and Amakuza in that 1998, it is impossible that the red truths of all the stories they read apply to their world, because most of them are contradictory. And that means we can't really use those red truths to limit the possibilities of what happened in their world.
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Old 2010-04-29, 08:20   Link #9570
Judoh
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Well if Ange did have the grimioire, or the diary, or whatever, I think she was given it by Eva, and the only possible way Eva could have it is if she murdered Maria and took it. So maybe that's the implication.


That's why were thinking the jaw might be fake right? Because of that Diary surviving?
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Old 2010-04-29, 08:41   Link #9571
Raiza Sunozaki
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Eva doesn't need to kill Maria to recieve the Grimoire/diary. Maria's character sprite shows her carrying around her bag at all times, but we can probably file this under Ryuukishi's laziness, because she probably wouldn't carry that bag around the entire time. Even if she did, I doubt the rest of the family members would just leave it out in the rain.
Under the assumption that they bring the bag to guest house, it's very possible that it might've survived. The explosion is assumed to be centred around the main house, and the guest house is quite a distance away. Not far enough to avoid structural collapse from the force of the explosion, but far enough to avoid the firely explosions. Afterwards, people salvaging the island could find the bag with Maria's items in it, and since Eva's the oldest surviving family member, the articles get passed on to her.
On the topic of getting random things from the wreakage of the island, how did Eva get her hands on the head's ring?
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Old 2010-04-29, 08:44   Link #9572
Jan-Poo
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The easiest and most likely answer is that she was appointed as the new head before the explosion.

But how did that happen is a mystery.
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Old 2010-04-29, 08:49   Link #9573
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Well if Ange did have the grimioire, or the diary, or whatever, I think she was given it by Eva, and the only possible way Eva could have it is if she murdered Maria and took it. So maybe that's the implication.
It may be, but would Eva be so stupid as to let Ange have it then, knowing that it implicates her? Especially considering her 'go torture yourself trying to figure it out, I won't tell you anything' right before she dies? I find it unbelievable, even though it is physically possible.

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That's why were thinking the jaw might be fake right? Because of that Diary surviving?
Yes. There are a couple other chances for it to survive, come to think of it:
  • Rosa also survived the incident and left the island with Maria's bag with five master keys in it still on her hand. Before the police got to her apartment, she left the diary while visiting the apartment to pack before taking off to parts unknown with a single gold bar that was her only prize for this entire mess.
  • Maria visited Kuwadorian during the game and returned back to the mansion, leaving her bag in there. (Note that the backgrounds on the scene where Ange tells Maria that Sakutarou is inanimate are Kuwadorian backgrounds) The bag was identified as Maria's and placed with her things where Ange found it.
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Old 2010-04-29, 08:52   Link #9574
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The easiest and most likely answer is that she was appointed as the new head before the explosion.

But how did that happen is a mystery.
That's not the problem I have. Kinzo's will never surfaced, so it's reasonable that as the sole adult surviving Ushiromiya, she'd become the head.

The last time we see the ring in Episode 3, if I remember correctly, is when Kinzo throws it into the rose garden, where Ronove catches it and hands it to Beato. After that, I remember it simply disappearing into obscurity.
Here's a thought. If I'm right on my hunch that Beato represents someone who's solved the Epitaph and therefore become the head, then Genji handing the ring to the new head is a natural procession.
Then when Eva solves the Epitaph and becomes the head, the first solver hands the ring to her (disguised by that fancy scene where Young Eva becomes Evatrice). For the sake of hiding the fact that she's found the gold, she doesn't wear it until after the disaster.
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Old 2010-04-29, 08:54   Link #9575
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
Eva doesn't need to kill Maria to recieve the Grimoire/diary. Maria's character sprite shows her carrying around her bag at all times, but we can probably file this under Ryuukishi's laziness, because she probably wouldn't carry that bag around the entire time. Even if she did, I doubt the rest of the family members would just leave it out in the rain.
Under the assumption that they bring the bag to guest house, it's very possible that it might've survived.
There's a few problems with that I have already listed:
  • Maria does have the bag within a few meters of herself pretty much at all times. Otherwise the whole mess with the chapel key would be extremely doubtful.
  • It is indeed true that if Maria was killed in the fashion described in Ep3, it's very likely her bag would have been carried back with her. Assuming the guesthouse survived in any manner, however, would allow Ange to have any number of physical mementos from Battler's baggage, which she does not have. Like I said, she could now be proudly wearing Battler's own spare shirt if she wanted to or slice her enemies with his safety razor, if that were true. She would probably want to, knowing the type.
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Old 2010-04-29, 09:00   Link #9576
Jan-Poo
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Well Oliver I don't know if the diary survival could be actually connected to Maria's survival.

Regardless of Maria being still alive we'd have to think why the grimoire is now in Ange's hands. Now let's say that it was intentional, that the mastermind or Maria herself wanted Ange to have it after the accident. This could be true both in the case Maria actually died (she just made sure it wouldn't be caught in the explosion) and in the case Maria survived.

Conversely let's say that the grimoire survival happened by mere chance. This also could work regardless of Maria dying (she just happened to leave the grimoire in a safer place) or surviving (she left it behind after disappearing, or lost it)

Then there is the chance that Eva took the grimoire with her for whatever reason. And again this works regardless of Maria's death/alive status.

What kind of option I'm missing that would only work in case Maria's still alive?


Quote:
That's not the problem I have. Kinzo's will never surfaced, so it's reasonable that as the sole adult surviving Ushiromiya, she'd become the head.

The last time we see the ring in Episode 3, if I remember correctly, is when Kinzo throws it into the rose garden, where Ronove catches it and hands it to Beato. After that, I remember it simply disappearing into obscurity.
Here's a thought. If I'm right on my hunch that Beato represents someone who's solved the Epitaph and therefore become the head, then Genji handing the ring to the new head is a natural procession.
Then when Eva solves the Epitaph and becomes the head, the first solver hands the ring to her (disguised by that fancy scene where Young Eva becomes Evatrice). For the sake of hiding the fact that she's found the gold, she doesn't wear it until after the disaster.
That's what I was actually saying. In order to receive the ring from someone Eva had to be appointed as the new head before the explosion, in other words before everyone died. This couldn't happen after the esplosion as a consequence of her being the only survivor, because then there wouldn't be anyone left that could give her the ring.

There is still the chance that the ring was found in Kuwadorian or randomly like Mammon stake and maria's grimoire. But I find this perspective less appealing because I think it is by far more likely that someone (Beatrice most probably, or Genji) would keep close such an important ring.
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Old 2010-04-29, 09:05   Link #9577
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
What kind of option I'm missing that would only work in case Maria's still alive?
There aren't any, I think, though there's an interesting class of options you're missing. It's the options that work when Maria survived the endgame but was killed soon afterwards by a third party.

A side shot into the head with a shotgun could tear off a piece of the jaw which got left at the scene and was identified, while the body was carried away and disposed of in another manner -- then the diary was used as the basis for a forgery and handed off to Ange by hiding it in Maria's room.
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Old 2010-04-29, 09:07   Link #9578
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
There's a few problems with that I have already listed:
  • Maria does have the bag within a few meters of herself pretty much at all times. Otherwise the whole mess with the chapel key would be extremely doubtful.
  • It is indeed true that if Maria was killed in the fashion described in Ep3, it's very likely her bag would have been carried back with her. Assuming the guesthouse survived in any manner, however, would allow Ange to have any number of physical mementos from Battler's baggage, which she does not have. Like I said, she could now be proudly wearing Battler's own spare shirt if she wanted to or slice her enemies with his safety razor, if that were true. She would probably want to, knowing the type.
Ange may have a severe brother complex, but I doubt she'd be wearing his shirts. Her story of 1998, no matter how doubtful, is twelve years after the conference. Most people I know don't hold onto shirts for more than three or four years. Besides, the possessions that Battler had on the island is irrelevant. No matter how many objects he had on himself on the island, there would be many more at the house he had been staying at before, which if I'm correct, was Rudolf's house. Ange could easily find many more of her beloved brother's possessions there.
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Old 2010-04-29, 09:13   Link #9579
Jan-Poo
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Is there anything that clearly state that Maria's grimoire was retrieved from Rokkenjima after the accident?

If not there might be a chance that that was an old grimoire whose pages have been filled so Maria had to buy another one.
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Old 2010-04-29, 09:14   Link #9580
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
No matter how many objects he had on himself on the island, there would be many more at the house he had been staying at before, which if I'm correct, was Rudolf's house. Ange could easily find many more of her beloved brother's possessions there.
That is probably correct, though only to a certain degree -- Battler spent most of the 1980-1986 period with Asumu's parents, and most of his personal effects resided there, and only a few moved after he returned to Rudolf and Kyrie. He actually says that much in Ep1. But some things should have moved with him right there and then.

And yet Ange somehow doesn't have anything to remind her of Battler except the head ornament he got for her in an UFO catcher and explicitly says so. Why exactly?
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