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Old 2010-04-29, 09:19   Link #9581
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Is there anything that clearly state that Maria's grimoire was retrieved from Rokkenjima after the accident?

If not there might be a chance that that was an old grimoire whose pages have been filled so Maria had to buy another one.
No, Ange just found it 'in Maria's things' and doesn't say which set of things that was. The chance that it's an older, full diary is obviously there.

But then it has to end with September 1985, because otherwise Maria would not have drawings by Beatrice in her new one, (unless Rosa made much more frequent visits to the island than we're led to believe) and Battler notices that she does in Ep1.

And if my dating is correct, Sakutaro was destroyed sometime in 1986.

Therefore, if Ange has an older, full diary, it cannot have a mention of Sakutaro being destroyed in it.

EDIT: ...if it's not a fake diary, that is.
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Old 2010-04-29, 09:25   Link #9582
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
That is probably correct, though only to a certain degree -- Battler spent most of the 1980-1986 period with Asumu's parents, and most of his personal effects resided there, and only a few moved after he returned to Rudolf and Kyrie. He actually says that much in Ep1. But some things should have moved with him right there and then.

And yet Ange somehow doesn't have anything to remind her of Battler except the head ornament he got for her in an UFO catcher and explicitly says so. Why exactly?
Random theorization, go!

Asumu's parents, who Battler moved in with after breaking off ties, are mentioned to be pretty average in status compared to the Ushiromiya family. So when Battler moved back in with Rudolf, Kyrie and Ange, Rudolf/Kyrie told him to leave anything he wasn't really attached to there, that they'd buy him things more appropriate for a member of the Ushiromiya family. Since the time between him moving back in and the conference is mentioned to be pretty short, he didn't have many things that he was really attached to.

Also, I think she'd find an object he tried hard to get for her much more memorable than a piece of clothing he randomly wore. And on the topic of shirts, who's to say she isn't wearing one under her jacket?

Finally, Eva. She's shown to almost enjoy being a bitch to Ange, even though we know it's just that she can't cope with the loss of George, and the feeling that Ange was almost supposed to replace her beloved son. With no care for Ange's feelings, she might've just gotten rid of anything owned by her siblings that she couldn't sell or use to make herself look weathly.
Though this does contradict her giving Ange the Grimoire/diary.
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Old 2010-04-29, 09:26   Link #9583
Jan-Poo
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Uhmmm I have found this however:

Quote:
It was one of Maria onee-chan's elaborate notebooks. This was not a diary. ......This was a grimoire, which she had written as a witch.
This seems to imply that Maria had many of those and not just one.
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Old 2010-04-29, 09:29   Link #9584
Raiza Sunozaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
No, Ange just found it 'in Maria's things' and doesn't say which set of things that was. The chance that it's an older, full diary is obviously there.

But then it has to end with September 1985, because otherwise Maria would not have drawings by Beatrice in her new one, (unless Rosa made much more frequent visits to the island than we're led to believe) and Battler notices that she does in Ep1.

And if my dating is correct, Sakutaro was destroyed sometime in 1986.

Therefore, if Ange has an older, full diary, it cannot have a mention of Sakutaro being destroyed in it.

EDIT: ...if it's not a fake diary, that is.
Or, perhaps there is only both a diary and a grimoire. The grimoire is filled with the knowledge Maria's possibly researched herself and been taught by Beatrice. The diary is the detailed (possibly biased/fake) account of Maria's day-to-day life.
I think Ange would have both, else wise we could go back to the magic debate and say Maria, bound to her diary, can access her grimoire.
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Old 2010-04-29, 09:31   Link #9585
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Therefore, if Ange has an older, full diary, it cannot have a mention of Sakutaro being destroyed in it.
Actually it doesn't have to. The scene where that story starts off was in the meta world when Ange left the tea party temporarily. So we can just look at it like another episode 2 event except with Maria instead.
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Old 2010-04-29, 09:32   Link #9586
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
Also, I think she'd find an object he tried hard to get for her much more memorable than a piece of clothing he randomly wore. And on the topic of shirts, who's to say she isn't wearing one under her jacket?
Ange herself. You wear someone else's shirt to remind you of them constantly. But she only mentions the hair ornaments.

It is possible she has something else and doesn't mention it, but when the topic of resurrection comes up, it's obviously best to have as many items connected with the person as possible, yet the ornament is the only thing she says she has.

The reasons you listed for personal effects actually missing are all quite reasonable, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
Though this does contradict her giving Ange the Grimoire/diary.
Ah, but Eva did not give her anything. Ange got a chance to be alone with Maria's personal effects, wherever they were from, and clandestinely swiped it, that's what she narrates. If Eva thought the book would implicate her in anything and knew it existed, I'm betting she would immediately destroy it, evidence or no.
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Old 2010-04-29, 09:36   Link #9587
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Actually it doesn't have to. The scene where that story starts off was in the meta world when Ange left the tea party temporarily. So we can just look at it like another episode 2 event except with Maria instead.
How does Ange/1998 know that Sakutaro was destroyed then?
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Old 2010-04-29, 09:39   Link #9588
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
This seems to imply that Maria had many of those and not just one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
I think Ange would have both, else wise we could go back to the magic debate and say Maria, bound to her diary, can access her grimoire.
Yes, that is possible. Then we go back to the variant that there is one diary (which Maria left at home) and multiple grimoires (one of which Maria had with her which is lost, and another that was left at home and which became property of Ange).

But then, just how much does Maria have to write to have multiple grimoires, all with traces of a Beatrice in them?
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Old 2010-04-29, 09:42   Link #9589
Dlanor A. Knox
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
How does Ange/1998 know that Sakutaro was destroyed then?
Maybe she had found some notes/drawings from Maria about Sakutaro and since she noticed that Maria hadn't Sakutaro arround her when she came visiting, she putted 1 and 2 together....

Or the woman from the District welfare officer told Ange afterwards? Because the woman was in the hall of the house telling Rosa to calm down in the anime...if I remember it correctly
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Last edited by Dlanor A. Knox; 2010-04-29 at 09:49. Reason: Thanks Oliver ^^
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Old 2010-04-29, 09:46   Link #9590
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Dlanor A. Knox View Post
Maybe she had found some notes/drawings from Maria about Sakutaro and since she noticed that Maria hadn't Sakutaro arround her when she came visiting, she putted 1 and 2 together....

Or the woman from the children...thingy...(forgot how it's called >.<) told Ange afterwards? Because the woman was in the hall of the house telling Rosa to calm down in the anime...if I remember it correctly
District welfare officer. Not a 'children thingy' in Japan, actually, but a police officer specialist attached to the local precinct -- at least that's what I remember from researching it back in 1999. Traditionally female and also deals with juvenile criminals.

I'm sorry but that's stretching the interpretation slightly beyond sustainability.
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Old 2010-04-29, 09:47   Link #9591
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Yes, that is possible. Then we go back to the variant that there is one diary (which Maria left at home) and multiple grimoires (one of which Maria had with her which is lost, and another that was left at home and which became property of Ange).

But then, just how much does Maria have to write to have multiple grimoires, all with traces of a Beatrice in them?
That's not what I was thinking. I'm under the impression that there's only one diary and one grimoire. Maria doesn't need to bring her diary to the island, she can write about the entire two days when she gets back. But she does have her grimoire, probably so that she can play with Beatrice again. The grimoire, after identified as Maria's, was put into the same pile of her personal belongings as her diary, which Ange swiped.
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Old 2010-04-29, 09:49   Link #9592
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
That's not what I was thinking. I'm under the impression that there's only one diary and one grimoire. Maria doesn't need to bring her diary to the island, she can write about the entire two days when she gets back. But she does have her grimoire, probably so that she can play with Beatrice again. The grimoire, after identified as Maria's, was put into the same pile of her personal belongings as her diary, which Ange swiped.
Then we're back to wondering how it managed to survive.

You know, after further thinking I seem to prefer the variant of Rosa surviving with Maria's bag, five master keys and a gold bar. Her endgame magic scene narration clearly says 'I can start over with this.'
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Old 2010-04-29, 09:52   Link #9593
Dlanor A. Knox
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
District welfare officer. Not a 'children thingy' in Japan, actually, but a police officer specialist attached to the local precinct -- at least that's what I remember from researching it back in 1999. Traditionally female and also deals with juvenile criminals.

I'm sorry but that's stretching the interpretation slightly beyond sustainability.
Thanks xD

well, nothing is impossible as long as the (real) truth isn't discovered.
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Old 2010-04-29, 10:01   Link #9594
Raiza Sunozaki
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Then we're back to wondering how it managed to survive.

You know, after further thinking I seem to prefer the variant of Rosa surviving with Maria's bag, five master keys and a gold bar. Her endgame magic scene narration clearly says 'I can start over with this.'
In Episode 2. Eva is confirmed as dead in Episode 2, so the 1998 where Eva torments Ange can't have followed Episode 2.

I formed a little theory based around the whole different scenarios of Umineko. Of course, each game board has a 1998 that follows it, but Ange rarely ever survives until that year for most of the Episodes. In other words, she commits suicide from the inability to cope with the world without her family. In Episode 3, she only is able to surive because of her hatred for Eva, and after Eva dies, we see that Ange is contemplating suicide again. Something convinces her to keep living however, and she can survive to reach the island. That's why Ange could fight in the meta-world only after Episode 3. It was the factors of that Episode that allowed her to play alongside her brother.
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Old 2010-04-29, 10:24   Link #9595
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
I formed a little theory based around the whole different scenarios of Umineko. Of course, each game board has a 1998 that follows it, but Ange rarely ever survives until that year for most of the Episodes. In other words, she commits suicide from the inability to cope with the world without her family. In Episode 3, she only is able to surive because of her hatred for Eva, and after Eva dies, we see that Ange is contemplating suicide again. Something convinces her to keep living however, and she can survive to reach the island. That's why Ange could fight in the meta-world only after Episode 3. It was the factors of that Episode that allowed her to play alongside her brother.
Assuming Rosa did survive with a single gold bar, I can offer a theory I think can be more interesting.

All episodes can be seen as possibilities in a state of flux before the box is actually opened, or else, simulations on a sufficiently big computing device, or occur as thought in someone's brain and are written out as fiction we're reading, and none of them is actually a complete universe -- they're bottle worlds, having no connection to any actual reality past 24:00 of October 3rd 1986.

They're 'the chessboard of the witch' and are not 'real' in the sense that what really happened in the reality Ange/1998 lives in is something that so far matched none of the episodes. All objects outside Rokkenjima are only simulated completely enough to provide the environment required to get the Ushiromiyas to Rokkenjima. They are fixed, and sufficient natural noise to actually prevent anyone from getting to Rokkenjima never accumulates -- and after that, Rokkenjima completely bubbles off.

This is why the emergency radio doesn't work -- nobody exists to be contacted.

All things we see in the actual episodes are scenarios that are possible and were actually played on the board. People who survived to the endgame in the episodes actually did have such an opportunity and some of them did survive past it in a fashion we see in the episodes. The only one who chose to stick around and hold the remnants of Ushiromiyas is Eva.

The game sub-reality is possible because it relies on the imperceptibility of the real truth of the events, and requires the real world for it's starting conditions. It can be continued indefinitely until the full truth, well substantiated by evidence, is publicized in the real world, crushing the metaphorical witch in this manner.
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Old 2010-04-29, 11:24   Link #9596
ijriims
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The grimoire Ange got had:

1. THe initial innocent spells created by Maria (UUUUUU~~~, the spell to rain candy, etc)

2. Wicked spells created by Maria (causing classmates to catch cold, causing the school bus to crash, etc)

3. Beatrice's drawing of magic circles (all the ones on the door in the twilights)

4. Beatrice's declaration of accepting Sakutarou as Maria's friend and an individual (along with Sakutarou's drawing)

5. Description of the seven stakes

6. Rosa's treatment of Maria (she believed Rosa was just busy in the office even she found the ticket to Atami. Of course, this view is so biased) to the time Rosa tearing Sakutarou


Therefore, Maria's grimoire is a diary, as well as a spellbook, from when she was very little (when she created the first spell), up to now.

THere is little doubt that there was only one grimoire, and obviously she carried it everytime she went to Rokkenjima.
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Old 2010-04-29, 11:57   Link #9597
Oliver
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Something just occurred to me about the letters.
  • Whichever reason the money was given, the giver no longer can have access to it and loses it.
  • Therefore they are interested in the money being accepted, otherwise the exercise is pointless.
  • If they were payment for services rendered, the recipients could not have expected to die. Otherwise, they would leave instructions for their families to make use of them, to be opened in the event of their death - possibly by mailing them with a delayed delivery date to themselves - which none of the two known recipients did.
  • If they were payment for the lives of the dead, they are likewise pointless if not recovered and used, and they would not be used without instructions - in both cases they were considered too creepy. No such instructions appeared.
  • The only way the sender wouldn't know this would happen is if he had no connection to these people or their families.

Therefore, one and only one of the three has to be true:
  • The recipients of money definitely did not expect to die.
    I.e. if they plotted, murder was probably not on the cards.
  • The sender of money had no connection to them while they were alive.
    I.e. they did not participate in the plots of the sender.
  • The money has nothing to do with services rendered or compensation.
    But then we just have nothing to go on.
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Old 2010-04-29, 12:21   Link #9598
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@Oliver:
Whose handwriting do you think the letters were written in?
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Old 2010-04-29, 12:23   Link #9599
Oliver
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Oh, and a completely unrelated oddity from Ep4: Either Battler can't count or he knows something we don't.

It's the end, Battler is arguing with Suit-Beatrice about his sin, Meta-Battler does the same with Meta-Beatrice one level higher, and launches into a rant, "13 people dead because of me?! Say it in red!"

But wait a moment, why 13? Because the epitaph says so? But there's more people dead this time than the epitaph says!

At that moment, Battler has only seen the dead body of George, Kumasawa and Gohda hanging out in the storehouse, and suspects Kinzo is dead from the start. He also thinks there are 18 people on the island and one of them is Suit-Beatrice. But as far as he is aware, the only people alive on the island should be Battler, Maria and Suit-Beatrice, as everyone else has been reported dead to him.

Supposing that Battler doesn't think he could have anything to do with the dead Kinzo and leaving his status undefined, that makes 15 people dead.
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Old 2010-04-29, 12:27   Link #9600
Jan-Poo
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Are you sure that the giver no longer can access those money? Not that I think he would do that, but the possibility that he could access the vaults exist.

First off it must be considered that while there are 20 vaults or so, they are all part of the same account. The hardest part to "crack" is the magnetic card and the code. However we know that there are multiple magnetic cards and by inserting the PIN 07151129 all the 20+ vaults become available to be opened with the proper key.

The key however is the easier thing to bypass since it can be duplicated if you have the original, and the one who made the account had all these keys in her possession.


Quote:
If they were payment for the lives of the dead, they are likewise pointless if not recovered and used, and they would not be used without instructions - in both cases they were considered too creepy. No such instructions appeared.
I don't think this can be said with certainty either. If it was Beatrice who had this idea, we know that she's fickle enough to have left to chance whether the receiver would actually get the money. If it was Kinzo's idea he might have thought that only those smart enough to realize how to use the stuff they were given and determinate enough to take shady money would be worthy of getting the prize.
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