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Old 2010-05-01, 15:07   Link #9681
Ssol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I guess Asumu is a possibility if Hachijou is in her 50s, but I've never got that impression.....
Ah, you're right. If she's actually older than her appearance shows then we need a clue from the game that points to this...
Spoiler for heh:

?

And yeah, Featherine -> Feather + in
The kanji for feather is 羽
The kanji for insert is 入

羽入(はにゅう) -> Hanyuu

Ryukishi likes that kind of wordplay.
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Old 2010-05-01, 15:25   Link #9682
Verg Avesta
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
  • Battler perceives an object which he immediately associates with Kinzo so strongly that he can't help but exclaim 'Grandfather!'
  • But satisfying the red that no person would misidentify Kinzo by sight, he realises his error immediately and stops himself after the first syllable.
  • Upon further observation, he recognises it as an object message from Kinzo to the solver of the epitaph that they are on the right way, and directing the solver further.
  • When questioned about it by Erika, he says "Grandfather told me." meaning that "an object associated with Grandfather symbolically or visually or in some other manner is a message to me -- and not you, because, not being of Ushiromiya, you don't understand it's meaning and can only see it's pointing in a different direction now". As he's not terribly pleased with Erika by that point already, he doesn't elaborate.
  • Erika interprets it as getting an actual message from a Kinzo that was present here, but drops the topic after Battler doesn't respond.
I guess this could work, yes. Especially with the idea of the symbol of one-winged eagle being the thing that points towards the gold. I guess that this exact thing which shows the gold's resting place is the "1%" that Ryukishi mentioned. You know, the thing that is only solvable in the Rokkenjima itself.

Oh, and one other thing I found weird during the ????:

- Kinzo's corpse. Battler "presents evidence" in form of Kinzo's corpse during the confortation with Erika, and is forced to use golden truth to actually prove it's Kinzo's corpse (Or rather, Battler is required to show through human truth that it is Kinzo's corpse, and he then lashes out with golden text). Wouldn't this mean that Kinzo's corpse has been seen somewhere in ep5, as it especially concerns only that episode, not the previous one where we have the burnt corpse? And if it does mean, where the hell could that corpse have been seen?
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Old 2010-05-01, 17:17   Link #9683
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But arent most of the adults around their 40s-50s. with the exception of maybe Rosa
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Old 2010-05-01, 17:43   Link #9684
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Originally Posted by Verg Avesta View Post
- Kinzo's corpse. Battler "presents evidence" in form of Kinzo's corpse during the confortation with Erika, and is forced to use golden truth to actually prove it's Kinzo's corpse (Or rather, Battler is required to show through human truth that it is Kinzo's corpse, and he then lashes out with golden text). Wouldn't this mean that Kinzo's corpse has been seen somewhere in ep5, as it especially concerns only that episode, not the previous one where we have the burnt corpse? And if it does mean, where the hell could that corpse have been seen?
This is where my theory comes in.

At this point Dlanor says in red that any corpse Battler presents could possibly be someone else's. However if Battler can prove without a doubt that Kinzo is dead than through contrapositive a corpse with Kinzo's identity must exist somewhere. So therefore if he can prove through testimony or through written documentation that Kinzo is dead then with the proof of humans he can guarantee that there is a corpse like that and that because of this special proof this corpse can only be called "Kinzo". After you know there is a corpse like that you just need to find it.

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Last edited by Judoh; 2010-05-01 at 18:40.
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Old 2010-05-01, 18:02   Link #9685
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Originally Posted by CainSonozaki View Post
But arent most of the adults around their 40s-50s. with the exception of maybe Rosa
They're actually quite old. Krauss, Eva, and possibly Rudolf must be in their mid-50s. Rosa has a much larger gap in age with her siblings, and appears to be in her late 30s. The Ushiromiyas seem to have had children fairly late; remember that Natsuhi relates she was married to Krauss for nearly a decade or so before she was able to have Jessica. Even if she married extremely young, that's about 25-30 years of married life on the island. You can talk yourself into some young ages if you're willing to believe Kinzo and Krauss/Eva both married really young, but you can't go too far.

I'm not totally clear on which war Hideyoshi fought in. Was he in WWII (which would potentially make him over 60) or the Korean War? He mentions messing around with the American occupation force, and by Korea it would not have been an "occupation." I think they also mention Kinzo as having fought in WWII himself, but the age difference between Kinzo and his eldest children and their spouses may not be as huge as you figure. Depends how young you think he was when he was made head of the family, as that's the only real fixed date that early in Kinzo's timeline.

EDIT: Confusing the matter further, the Korean War started in 1950 and the Occupation ended in 1951. However, Korea continued for 2 more years thereafter. I suppose it's possible Hideyoshi would have just seen the Americans as occupying even after the official turnover. The important thing here is that Hideyoshi cannot have been a veteran of pretty much anything after 1953, because Japan hasn't been in any major wars since then.
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Old 2010-05-01, 18:55   Link #9686
Marion
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Yeah I'm pretty sure Kinzo fought in WWII - in EP 5 they mention that after he came back from the war he had changed completely (most likely because that's when he met Beatrice).

Anyways I'm pretty sure Rudolf is in his mid or late 40's. Assume he's 47 for example.

47 - 18 = 29 for when Battler was born. It makes enough sense, so I'd say around 45-47. Kyrie's probably around 42-44 herself.

Eva I'm sure is in her early 50's along with Krauss and Hideyoshi is probably a little older than they are. Natsuhi is likely around late 40's early 50's as well, considering when she gave birth to Jessica. Rosa should definietly be mid 30's if she met 1967 Beatrice when she was around 10-12.
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Old 2010-05-01, 18:58   Link #9687
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Rosa has a much larger gap in age with her siblings, and appears to be in her late 30s.
Mid-thirties. Rosa is in middle school 20 years before the Rokkenjima Murders.

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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Yeah I'm pretty sure Kinzo fought in WWII - in EP 5 they mention that after he came back from the war he had changed completely (most likely because that's when he met Beatrice).
WWII, definitely. Has to be, since it's been suggested that Kinzo's gold is in fact the Nazi Gold.
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Old 2010-05-01, 19:14   Link #9688
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If Kinzo was in WWII, he was either quite young, or fought when he was a bit older. If you believe he was born between 1910 and 1920 for instance he'd be 16-18 when Japan entered the war against China. That's not improbable. If he was born any earlier though he's getting up in age a bit.
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Old 2010-05-01, 19:24   Link #9689
Marion
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
If Kinzo was in WWII, he was either quite young, or fought when he was a bit older. If you believe he was born between 1910 and 1920 for instance he'd be 16-18 when Japan entered the war against China. That's not improbable. If he was born any earlier though he's getting up in age a bit.
Well the Kanto earthquake was in 1923 and that's when he became the next successor. WWI he was too young to fight in, so I'm pretty sure it was WWII. According to the narration Nanjo knew him since before Kinzo became head, even mentioning how Krauss sitting on Kinzo's chair reminded Nanjo of the first time he saw Kinzo after the latter became the head of the family. So I think Kinzo was probably 18-19 when the Kanto Earthquake hit.
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Old 2010-05-01, 19:51   Link #9690
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Japan didn't really see any heavy fighting in WWI; I think they took some German colonies. The earliest war before that point was the Russo-Japanese War in 1905. Kinzo would be ancient if that was the war he fought in, so it's unlikely.

Odds are it was WWII, but that makes Hideyoshi very old relative to the other adults, closer to Nanjo and Kinzo's age than even to his wife.
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Old 2010-05-01, 19:53   Link #9691
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Japan didn't really see any heavy fighting in WWI; I think they took some German colonies. The earliest war before that point was the Russo-Japanese War in 1905. Kinzo would be ancient if that was the war he fought in, so it's unlikely.

Odds are it was WWII, but that makes Hideyoshi very old relative to the other adults, closer to Nanjo and Kinzo's age than even to his wife.
Well since the earliest he could have started smoking is at about 14 it's possible he could have snuck into the military saying he was older than he really was. What was the age limit for recruits in japan back then?

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-05-01 at 20:06.
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Old 2010-05-01, 19:57   Link #9692
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Assuming he was as young as even 12 in '36, he would still be 62 in 1986.

So either he was very young and came in very late in the war (where Kinzo was probably in it from the start), which would at best make him mid-late 50s, or he's within 5-10 years of Kinzo's own age. He's pretty old.
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Old 2010-05-01, 19:58   Link #9693
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I'm not totally clear on which war Hideyoshi fought in. Was he in WWII (which would potentially make him over 60) or the Korean War? He mentions messing around with the American occupation force, and by Korea it would not have been an "occupation." I think they also mention Kinzo as having fought in WWII himself, but the age difference between Kinzo and his eldest children and their spouses may not be as huge as you figure. Depends how young you think he was when he was made head of the family, as that's the only real fixed date that early in Kinzo's timeline.
According to Ep5 narration, Kinzo did serve throughout WWII but did not get sent to the frontlines. The event he referred to as "meeting Beatrice" occurred before the end and after the start of the war. It is reported that he had an "extraordinary experience of war" that radically changed him. Without being on the frontlines, I feel this would be rather nontrivial. It kind of makes me think of Hiroshima/Nagasaki or Okinawa, but there is absolutely nothing definite on the issue.

Hideyoshi is not referred to as serving in any war as far as I could notice.

He does explicitly mention working as a warehouse keeper soon after the war during the occupation, using his opportunities to divert goods from US Army - i.e. medium scale stealing. All of his family reportedly perished under bombs, which localises it to Kanto area and 1943-1945 period with a strong slant to 1945. (Like I mentioned before, few places on Japanese mainland got bombed in any serious way at all.) If he really did not serve, that would narrow the year of his birth to no earlier than 1928, making him ineligible for draft during the war itself. (IJA conscription ages were between 17 and 40)

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EDIT: Confusing the matter further, the Korean War started in 1950 and the Occupation ended in 1951. However, Korea continued for 2 more years thereafter. I suppose it's possible Hideyoshi would have just seen the Americans as occupying even after the official turnover. The important thing here is that Hideyoshi cannot have been a veteran of pretty much anything after 1953, because Japan hasn't been in any major wars since then.
As far as I know, Japanese did not serve in the Korean war. With the 1945 terms of surrender, Japan was not allowed to have any army whatsoever, up until the Korean war started. After the Korean war, which drew off most of the US occupation contingent, ended, a Mutual Security Assistance Pact was ratified along with the 1952 peace treaty, and as part of it's terms, National Police Reserve was renamed and eventually expanded further, ending up in JSDF in 1954.

The only way Hideyoshi could possibly serve there would be as a volunteer of some kind, which, if he was involved in building up assets during the prior occupation period, would be counterproductive to his business later.
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Old 2010-05-01, 20:02   Link #9694
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I'm sure there were local people doing logistics, as I doubt the US did all of that themselves. Hideyoshi never mentions seeing any fighting himself, but he does say he picked up smoking during the war (if I remember his conversation with Rudolf right). He could have meant "I was working supplies for the UN during Korea and swiping from the Americans." The muddying issue is that the Japanese probably would've seen no difference between the American Occupation and the UN even after the formal turnover of power. Until the Americans actually withdrew (which I think was mid-50s), I can see Hideyoshi referring to it as the "occupation" even if it technically wasn't.

Still, that doesn't make him terribly young either.
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Old 2010-05-01, 20:12   Link #9695
Verg Avesta
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
This is where my theory comes in.

At this point Dlanor says in red that any corpse Battler presents could possibly be someone else's. However if Battler can prove without a doubt that Kinzo is dead than through contrapositive a corpse with Kinzo's identity must exist somewhere. So therefore if he can prove through testimony or through written documentation that Kinzo is dead then with the proof of humans he can guarantee that there is a corpse like that and that because of this special proof this corpse can only be called "Kinzo". After you know there is a corpse like that you just need to find it.
But where is this special proof or documentation? Remember Knox's 8th. We haven't been shown even a hint of the things you talked about, whether it was finding the autopsy report or that Natsuhi & Krauss had talked to Battler privately.

And even so, when looking at the way both Battler and Dlanor talk, it's clear that Battler has presented a corpse as evidence. They speak of "this corpse", as if the corpse would be right before them. Of course, if Kinzo had been, say, cremated, Battler could present a jar of ashes. Or something similiar. But as they say "this corpse", I don't think we have to think about some special, secret reports that haven't been hinted at all. Not after the whole speech about "trust" we just get. They even mention: "This unidentified corpse".
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Old 2010-05-01, 20:13   Link #9696
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Well, the obvious question is, when did we ever see a corpse? Let alone a corpse that could be identified as Kinzo. If you buy a certain interpretation of the story, no corpse is ever seen in the narrative. The exception would be Kinzo's body in the prologue when he's found dead.
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Old 2010-05-01, 20:20   Link #9697
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Verg Avesta View Post
But where is this special proof or documentation? Remember Knox's 8th. We haven't been shown even a hint of the things you talked about, whether it was finding the autopsy report or that Natsuhi & Krauss had talked to Battler privately.

And even so, when looking at the way both Battler and Dlanor talk, it's clear that Battler has presented a corpse as evidence. They speak of "this corpse", as if the corpse would be right before them. Of course, if Kinzo had been, say, cremated, Battler could present a jar of ashes. Or something similiar. But as they say "this corpse", I don't think we have to think about some special, secret reports that haven't been hinted at all. Not after the whole speech about "trust" we just get. They even mention: "This unidentified corpse".
But it was hinted. Natsuhi says in episode 5 "there will be no autopsy". Nanjo was the one who suggested an autopsy. Furthermore Nanjo is not good at keeping secrets. It's possible he had an autopsy done anyway without Natsuhi's permission.

However Krauss would have to be involved.
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Old 2010-05-01, 20:29   Link #9698
Oliver
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I'm sure there were local people doing logistics, as I doubt the US did all of that themselves. Hideyoshi never mentions seeing any fighting himself, but he does say he picked up smoking during the war (if I remember his conversation with Rudolf right). He could have meant "I was working supplies for the UN during Korea and swiping from the Americans."
That he does, it just doesn't imply actually serving, especially considering that "The War" would not refer to Korean war, which Japanese did not actually fight in. Picking up smoking under air raids would be perfectly natural.

And obviously, US used local contractors throughout, particularly when feeding the Korean war. That's where Kinzo got most of his postwar money from.

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The muddying issue is that the Japanese probably would've seen no difference between the American Occupation and the UN even after the formal turnover of power. Until the Americans actually withdrew (which I think was mid-50s), I can see Hideyoshi referring to it as the "occupation" even if it technically wasn't.
Japan was never actually occupied by military units formally called UN troops as far as I know. US troops were stationed in Japan all the way until 1952, slowly handing off executive and legislative power to national administration and trickling away from the initial 350000 contingent. By 1950 the stationed units were reduced, after the start of Korean war most of what remained was hauled off to Korea, by 1952 a formal handover of power to national authorities completed.

So it ended a bit earlier, but it was an occupation all the way.
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Old 2010-05-01, 20:29   Link #9699
Verg Avesta
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Well, the obvious question is, when did we ever see a corpse? Let alone a corpse that could be identified as Kinzo. If you buy a certain interpretation of the story, no corpse is ever seen in the narrative. The exception would be Kinzo's body in the prologue when he's found dead.
Exactly. That's what bothers me, as it does not make any sense. With all these fake murders, it suddenly becomes hard finding a single corpse. Unless something ridiculous like Hideyoshi switching Kinzo's corpse in his stead (Which is why Eva thinks he's dead). There was a mention of Hideyoshi having polydactyly, too..............but yeah. Not happening. Which is why it's so strange.

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But it was hinted. Natsuhi says in episode 5 "there will be no autopsy". Nanjo was the one who suggested an autopsy. Furthermore Nanjo is not good at keeping secrets. It's possible he had an autopsy done anyway without Natsuhi's permission.

However Krauss would have to be involved.
So you're saying that the hint is someone saying: "Yeah, let's not do that"? And Nanjo has seemed quite capable enough of keeping secrets, what with going keeping up the illusion of Kinzo. At least we should have been shown something that hinted that Nanjo did not follow Natsuhi's orders, even if just him expressing his quilt. With the kind of "hint" you're proposing, pretty much everything could be taken as a hint allowed by Knox's 8th.

However, what could pass as a hint would be what was said in the start of the ep4, where it was stated that "Eva died in the same way as Kinzo". This would, of course, require autopsy to have been made.
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Old 2010-05-01, 20:50   Link #9700
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So you're saying that the hint is someone saying: "Yeah, let's not do that"? And Nanjo has seemed quite capable enough of keeping secrets, what with going keeping up the illusion of Kinzo. At least we should have been shown something that hinted that Nanjo did not follow Natsuhi's orders, even if just him expressing his quilt. With the kind of "hint" you're proposing, pretty much everything could be taken as a hint allowed by Knox's 8th.
The hint is that they were capable of having an autopsy not that that the request was refused.

And I disagree that they would have to see his corpse to prove it's him. Yes they talk about this corpse, this corpse, but that doesn't mean it was actually presented in the way and that it was proven by sight.

Battler reinforced Dlanor's blue truth by saying. In this closed-off Rokkenjima, there is no objective way to show that this corpse is Grandfather's. He admitted his corpse's identity could be mistaken for something else. He would need a subjective way to prove it's Kinzo.


So I don't think sight is the issue here. Corpses can be mistaken for something else. However if you can prove that Kinzo is dead without the corpse you can prove that a corpse is somewhere. And you would need a human proof from when Rokkenjima was not closed off.
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