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Old 2010-05-04, 11:28   Link #9741
Akuryou
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Kinzo = Beatrice, and the corpse was kept because the Beato Team wants to use the cerimony to revive him?

Just throwing some ideas, buuut...
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Old 2010-05-04, 11:33   Link #9742
DgBarca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akuryou View Post
Kinzo = Beatrice, and the corpse was kept because the Beato Team wants to use the cerimony to revive him?

Just throwing some ideas, buuut...
Kinzo = Battler anyone ?
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Old 2010-05-04, 11:49   Link #9743
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akuryou View Post
Kinzo = Beatrice, and the corpse was kept because the Beato Team wants to use the cerimony to revive him?

Just throwing some ideas, buuut...
Quote:
Originally Posted by DgBarca View Post
Kinzo = Battler anyone ?
Well, George seems to believe (if his narration is in any way true) that Kinzo's interest in western magic is because of Christian influences on it, which involve burial rather than cremation and thus make bodily resurrection possible. So the idea that Kinzo and Battler are more tightly connected than we were led to believe, or that Battler is a requirement to the process of Kinzo's resurrection somehow, clearly has merit and I already mentioned it a few posts back.

However, that would be a magical explanation, there has to be some kind of human trick that would make Kinzo's body a requirement, too. Some kind of trick that has been in planning for over a year. Moreover, if the body really was kept marinating in the study, Natsuhi and Krauss have to be in on it and interested in it -- they are the ones who stand to lose the most if it is discovered.
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Old 2010-05-04, 12:26   Link #9744
DgBarca
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"All of those who met at the family conference recognized the existence of Kinzo!"
"No person would mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo by sight."
"Kinzo is already dead at the starting time for all games!"

Nobody find a problem here ? If "Kinzo" is referring to two people, it became possible ti talk with red truth about on and switch to the "other" Kinzo when they want ?
Also, in EP5, it was never said in red that Battler actually wake up at the discovering of the crime. He feel asleep at 3:00AM but he probably woke up earlier.
And there is a way the bypass Erika omgilistentoyourbreathwhileyousleep. It could have been...the phone, linked to Natshui room. Then Erika would have heard Krauss/Natsuhi breath? Then it was possible to...wait...it leads to nothing...
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Old 2010-05-04, 13:05   Link #9745
Oliver
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Originally Posted by DgBarca View Post
"All of those who met at the family conference recognized the existence of Kinzo!"
"No person would mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo by sight."
"Kinzo is already dead at the starting time for all games!"

Nobody find a problem here ? If "Kinzo" is referring to two people, it became possible ti talk with red truth about on and switch to the "other" Kinzo when they want ?
There actually is no problem in this, but to explain why, I shall direct you to the knock problem in Ep5, which puts the trick out in the open for all to see.

Several pages of red surround the issue of the knock, and are apparently in contradiction with themselves, because it turns out that it was not possible for any character in the mansion or outside it to be the source of the knocking sound or the letter. Therefore the witch did it. But she did in fact do it! Here's how it could have happened:

Battler is in conference with the adults, Natsuhi and Krauss excuse themselves, Shannon/Kanon come in and get slapped with the news, "Hey, Battler found the gold, come drink tea with us, we're happy." Shannon or Kanon (or Shkanon if you like) responds with, "Oooh, finally! Concealing Kinzo's death has been getting tiring. I suppose he should have this then." and produce the ring, adding, "Just don't tell Natsuhi-sama, I think she's crazy -- she's talking to dead Kinzo, and if it gets discovered that I gave you that, I'll get fired with the worst reference possible..." To which someone, say, Rudolf, says, "It's ok. We'll all tell her the witch sent us a mysterious envelope while you were in the room with us, let's see her refute that." And everyone in conference agrees, because they now have a good reason to take Natsuhi down a peg or two. Since it has been established that Battler's perspective in Ep5 is not necessarily reliable, as he is not the detective, narrative shown to us describes what the people in the dining hall colluded to eventually say.

This works because there is numerous red stating that it was impossible for anyone to knock or place the letter -- drawing our attention away from the fact that it is not said in red that the letter was in fact there or that the knock actually occurred. If something is impossible due to the red, there's a very good chance it didn't happen at all!

In a very similar manner, it is perfectly possible to recognize the existence of Kinzo, without actually seeing a Kinzo! Recognizing the existence simply means 'agreeing that Kinzo is in fact alive', seeing Kinzo is not required. You don't even have to lie to do it. At another point in the episode, Beatrice does something very similar to Sakutarou, by constructing and signing a document that proclaims to the 'higher powers' that Sakutarou in fact 'exists', i.e. is alive, and making Virgilia sign it too. Sakutaro becomes alive as a result, because a written affidavit exists from reputable witches saying that he is alive.

Even earlier, Kyrie proposes an agreement regarding the rights of Krauss as the 'caretaker' of Kinzo, which would actually work the same, as anyone signing it would have to affirm that at this point in time Kinzo is alive.

We don't know what exactly happened in the dining hall that resulted in everyone agreeing that Kinzo is alive - but it definitely does not need a second Kinzo to exist, nor even the first to still be alive.
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Old 2010-05-04, 14:14   Link #9746
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DgBarca View Post
Also, in EP5, it was never said in red that Battler actually wake up at the discovering of the crime. He feel asleep at 3:00AM but he probably woke up earlier.
And there is a way the bypass Erika omgilistentoyourbreathwhileyousleep. It could have been...the phone, linked to Natshui room. Then Erika would have heard Krauss/Natsuhi breath? Then it was possible to...wait...it leads to nothing...
That is because the crime didn't happen until after he woke up. We were told the wounds that Battler 'saw' were fake. They told Erika the wounds were slashes on the neck. If they had those they would be dead, yet they weren't dead, thus the wounds were fake.

That makes no sense. Erika was listening with her ear pressed against the wall of the room. All she would have heard is what was going on in the cousins' room.
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Old 2010-05-04, 15:11   Link #9747
cmos
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
knock problem in Ep5
Or someone messed with the clock. As a result the clock rang before real 24:00 and there was a knock at the time. Then, that person left and at the real 24:00 there was no one in the mansion, except all of the people in the dining hall and in the second floor, just like red says.
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Old 2010-05-04, 15:21   Link #9748
Oliver
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Originally Posted by cmos View Post
Or someone messed with the clock. As a result the clock rang before real 24:00 and there was a knock at the time. Then, that person left and at the real 24:00 there was no one in the mansion, except all of the people in the dining hall and in the second floor, just like red says.
Sure, that works too. But what would they do that for? Just to mess with the red text they don't know exists? While the variant I explained above offers a reasonable motivation -- protecting Kanon/Shannon who ratted out the conspiracy to concerned parties.
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Old 2010-05-04, 15:54   Link #9749
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
While the variant I explained above offers a reasonable motivation -- protecting Kanon/Shannon who ratted out the conspiracy to concerned parties.
That theory works pretty well. And if someone ratted out the conspiracy it would make sense with the whole 'We want to see father.'
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Old 2010-05-04, 16:33   Link #9750
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In Episode 5, when Battler says

Spoiler for Episode 5 Spoilers I guess:


What is is that he's referencing?
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Old 2010-05-04, 16:47   Link #9751
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This is going back on an old point from many pages ago about Kanon's dissapearence in the guestroom at the end of ep6.

What if the gunfight between Kanon and Shannon reprsents a real battle between Kanon and the killer. He gets shot in the end and goes to hide in the guestroom mortally wounded. When he is briefly looking around the room Battler sprints out of his hiding place and leaves the room just missing Kanon's sight. Kanon; after seeing the killer isn't in the room, locks the chain and then hides.

Or maybe Battler thinks Kanon is the killer. He attacks Kanon thinking Kanon is going to attack him, after wounding him he runs out of the room. Kanon doesn't know that the killings are fake so he is shocked and surprised and thinks a real killer is somewhere in the mansion so he locks the door and hides.

Or we could apply the rules of the Shakannon theory, and say that Kanon = Erika. So Battler attacks Kanon because he is the killer. But that doesn't explain why Kanon locked the door. Oh wait I think a red counters that.
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Old 2010-05-04, 16:50   Link #9752
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@Oliver: If I remember right wasn't part of the agreement in episode 4 about Kinzo that they had to give them money for them to accept Krauss as Kinzo's care taker? Do you think Krauss has enough money to give in to blackmail?
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Old 2010-05-04, 17:09   Link #9753
Oliver
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@Oliver: If I remember right wasn't part of the agreement in episode 4 about Kinzo that they had to give them money for them to accept Krauss as Kinzo's care taker? Do you think Krauss has enough money to give in to blackmail?
Probably not. However, consider, for example (I'm not convinced this is it, but it's one possibility) that instead of Kinzo, entering the dinner hall with theatrical pomp, Krauss, in a similar manner, brings in a copy of Kinzo's holographic (that is, written in own handwriting) will, acknowledged by multiple witnesses, some of which are present here and some aren't. There's absolutely no way to bring this will into question and Krauss knows that there's more than one copy.

And that will's terms are horrifyingly bad for absolutely everyone in the room, starting with Krauss and ending with every other sibling, because if they divide the inheritance now according to the will, they get absolutely nothing and a long, unpleasant laugh of Kinzo's from beyond the grave. Krauss adds something to the effect of "You wanted to meet Father? I did warn you he was in a really bad mood." with sarcasm dripping off every syllable.

In the end, the siblings have no choice but to acknowledge that Kinzo is still alive and propose a plan to transfer the headship position (and thus, control over family's joint assets, currently held by a 'living Kinzo' even though they all know he's actually dead) to a grandchild of Kinzo, latching onto a procedure described in a supplementary document. If that happens while Kinzo is 'still alive', the terms of his will which leave them with nothing become void, as Kinzo, at the moment of his 'death', does not have any assets.

Just as an example.
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Last edited by Oliver; 2010-05-04 at 17:22.
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Old 2010-05-04, 17:22   Link #9754
Dlanor .A. Nox
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I'm really starting to like you Oliver lol. Those are some really plausible theories your making. I especially like your knocking solution.

By the way in accordance with your Kinzo theory couldn't that stench of sulfur be Kinzo's body they said that scent was in the air I think. Embalming fluid could have that kind of effect if it's burnt right?
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Old 2010-05-04, 17:43   Link #9755
Oliver
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By the way in accordance with your Kinzo theory couldn't that stench of sulfur be Kinzo's body they said that scent was in the air I think. Embalming fluid could have that kind of effect if it's burnt right?
Well, I don't think they actually said 'sulfur', but I'm pretty sure that if the incinerator is equipped to handle burning something as large as a body, it's also meant to vent the smell of whatever is burning out through the chimney. It makes a lot of sense to have a trash incinerator on the island - sort trash into burnable and unburnable, burn the burnable, haul the unburnable off on a boat, save on quite a few boat trips. So normally, you would expect that whatever you burn in it won't stink up the house, right? Otherwise there's no point having it.

But if you try to burn something soaked in glutaraldehyde and formaldehyde - both extremely pungent liquids on their own, with smells that are hard to describe - it will produce a large quantity of vapors, with those vapors further decomposing into various organic substances under the heat. I left organic chemistry back in school, so I can't tell you what those would be, but I'm betting they would leave the horrible, permeating burnt smell we see mentioned whenever Kinzo's corpse is found -- and there would be so much of those vapors escaping through every crack that the chimney would not suffice. Once the boiler room is saturated and the smell starts leaking out, it just takes someone opening the door once to stink the house up for a day.

Which is one of the reasons I thought of that method of Kinzo storage in the first place. The other is that the study is always described in terms of smells. Once I looked up embalming methods, I also noticed that formaldehyde would aggravate Natsuhi's natural headaches a lot, and glutaraldehyde is a major cause of occupational asthma in medical profession, and would obviously aggravate a preexisting one. Jessica's asthma got much worse since Battler last saw her, didn't it?
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Old 2010-05-04, 18:07   Link #9756
Dlanor .A. Nox
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Still wouldn't you think that the smell beforehand would be noticeable too? Battler said that the smell of liquor or something was heavy in the air too. So maybe that was to cover the smell of Kinzo's body eh?
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Old 2010-05-04, 18:25   Link #9757
Oliver
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Still wouldn't you think that the smell beforehand would be noticeable too? Battler said that the smell of liquor or something was heavy in the air too. So maybe that was to cover the smell of Kinzo's body eh?
Quite possibly. Anethole (the aromatic compound that gives it's smell to anise and by extension, absinthe which Kinzo is supposed to be drinking), is readily available as a scent, and would be useful to mask the smells of 'strange chemicals' which are mentioned from time to time in the study, and smells of decomposition.

I'm pretty sure Kinzo never drank enough absinthe for it to be actually smelling outside the study, that would require drinking it by the bucket.
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Old 2010-05-04, 19:09   Link #9758
Shiro Kaisen
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This is going back on an old point from many pages ago about Kanon's dissapearence in the guestroom at the end of ep6.

What if the gunfight between Kanon and Shannon reprsents a real battle between Kanon and the killer. He gets shot in the end and goes to hide in the guestroom mortally wounded. When he is briefly looking around the room Battler sprints out of his hiding place and leaves the room just missing Kanon's sight. Kanon; after seeing the killer isn't in the room, locks the chain and then hides.

Or maybe Battler thinks Kanon is the killer. He attacks Kanon thinking Kanon is going to attack him, after wounding him he runs out of the room. Kanon doesn't know that the killings are fake so he is shocked and surprised and thinks a real killer is somewhere in the mansion so he locks the door and hides.

Or we could apply the rules of the Shakannon theory, and say that Kanon = Erika. So Battler attacks Kanon because he is the killer. But that doesn't explain why Kanon locked the door. Oh wait I think a red counters that.


The Shannon/Kanon gunfight represents a literal shooting of Kanon by Shannon! This is evidenced by the fact that Kanon faces off with Beatrice in three out of five other episodes, and always is on the losing end! Futhermore, Shannon very likely represents Beatrice due to the broken promise that is constantly brought up by Meta-Beato! Kanon is mortally wounded, and hides in the room Battler was in! He locks the chain for security! This is why Beatrice included "Let us put aside whether or not the rescue was intentional!" Kanon hid in the closet and died!
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Old 2010-05-04, 20:54   Link #9759
Judoh
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I'm wondering what you guys might think of this closed room theory.

Well I just thought of this, but I think there might be two or three steps for every closed room.

All the closed rooms can be explained with a simple formula.

Some person or group murders X number of people in room(s) X these murders always take place in an unlocked room. This murderer is malicious, but knows nothing about closed room mysteries.

The next person or group creates the closed room and stakes the bodies. This person's motive is to get the murderer to admit what he/she did by bringing them back to the scene of the crime. They also create the situation for people to discover the scene of the crime. This person or group is determined to get the culprit to make a mistake when they explain their innocence. This other person or group either creates the closed rooms or creates the illusion in people's minds that the room was a closed room.

In other words in all but a few closed room cases the murders can happen in an unlocked room with a separate group creating closed rooms to provoke the murderer into exposing him/herself.


EDIT: With this theory Battler is incompetent for an entirely different reason than we previously thought. His bumbling motive to give everyone an alibi prevents Group Y from exposing Group X, which would in turn stop Group Z the group who can stop the bomb.
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Old 2010-05-04, 22:30   Link #9760
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My alternate interpretation of the knock is we're being lied to about who is where. Ignoring "Erika" as an assignment for a moment (let's assume she's real), we're told some very curious reds:
  • Before the family conference, Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa left the mansion and moved to the guesthouse.
  • Of those who remain, only Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji were in the second floor corridor, while all others were in the dining hall.
  • Not a single person in the dining hall...no, there's a simpler way to say it. Among all those inside the mansion at 24:00, not a single person placed that letter in the corridor.
Isn't it strange that we're told exactly who is where up until it starts actually mattering? We're told exactly who is in the guesthouse group, exactly where Krauss/Natsuhi/Genji are... and yet we're just told "all others" were in the dining hall. Then later we're told "all those inside the mansion at 24:00." Why change from a discrete accounting to a descriptive set? Because we are intentionally being asked to account for those people ourselves even though we do not know it is true that they are in the set of people we believe they are.

This happens again in ep6. Battler is asked specifically not to define all the people in one of the rooms, but to instead define the contents of that room as "all other persons" (exclusive Kinzo). Again, we ought already know who is in that room; why not say it outright? Is someone not in the room? If not, how aren't they included? Why aren't they included?

I find this highly suspicious. It happens twice, and it's subtle but noticeable. There is a distinct switch between discrete ("At 24:00, only Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa existed outside the mansion") and descriptive ("no one in the mansion placed the letter in the hallway"). An author would only do this if they are deliberately hoping the reader will misinterpret this.

Granted, "there was no letter and no knock" is equally valid, even probable. But I can't help but think there's some "key" in this semantic tapdance, and it's telling that it's enacted twice not by Battler or Beatrice, but by the witch side (once by Lambdadelta, once at Erika's suggestion). I would conclude that the semantic ambiguity benefits Bern/Lambda somehow. The trick here is that it's used by opposite sides in ep5 and ep6, though in ep6 Battler does ratify it. What's the angle?
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