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Old 2010-05-10, 20:58   Link #9861
Shiro Kaisen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Well, we know Erika helped Battler solve the epitaph.

We know there are two people who have, or are very close to being capable of solving it: Eva and Rosa.

Erika's behavior in ep5 is an almost perfect match for Eva's behavior in ep3 with respect to solving the epitaph. They both focus on the wordplay, and they both go looking for an atlas.

There is no mention in red of Eva's location at any time. If we assume someone (not necessarily Eva, but "someone") is Erika other than Erika Furudo herself, that person is free to return to the guesthouse since the red does not trap "Erika" in the dining room. That said, if someone is not Erika, escaping the mansion before the game suggests it becomes highly suspect.

EDIT: To clarify, the reason I think the "Erika doesn't exist" thing is worth considering - ludicrous as it sounds, on a Shkanon tier - is that, if true, it could in fact be the "key." We know from ep1 that Beatrice may not be "one single woman." If we can determine the rules that make someone "Beatrice" in ep1-4, we can guess who was committing the murders (or not committing them). It may be a different person each time, but there should be identifiable traits which allow Meta-Beatrice to self-identify her piece with that person and "cover" for them.

Likewise, if certain actions make a person "Erika," then figuring out the rules that make someone "Erika" should give us some hint as to whose perspectives are reliable in Chiru. We already know Erika herself is remarkably meta, and her piece never actually personally narrates much. So she herself may be of no use. On the other hand, if she is one or more people, and there are certain traits that associate a person with her, she becomes a useful tool that is instructive in figuring out who "Beatrice" is at any given time.

This would also explain Eva-Beatrice: The rules to become "Beatrice" were fulfilled by a different party, creating a different Beatrice.

You took the unformed words right out of my head and formed them perfectly.

Let's assume Eva is Erika Furudo in Episode 5. The reasons for this assumption are obvious and all over the place. In that case, what could these defining traits be?

Furthermore, Eva is most definitely not Erika Furudo in Episode 6. Erika killed Eva, after all. Therefore...she's gotta be someone else. My money's on Shannon...considering to keep the "Erika doesn't exist" theory going, we have to incorporate "Shannon shot Kanon and he died in the closet." And Erika killed all the rest of the victims in Episode 6.
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Old 2010-05-10, 21:29   Link #9862
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Erika's behavior in ep5 is an almost perfect match for Eva's behavior in ep3 with respect to solving the epitaph. They both focus on the wordplay, and they both go looking for an atlas.
We also forget that Battler's behavior in episode 5 is different. He had all the same thoughts that Kyrie had in episode 3. If we go by the theory that someone has to be written out of the story for Erika to become part of it well Battler is my first candidate for the person who is written out. My theory works very much the same way as Erika. Except Battler has a non objective POV so it's less complicated to place him there. His thoughts are very much the same as Kyrie's in that episode so I'd say he'd be represented by Kyrie.

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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
The only way this works is if they all gave birth on the exact same day in the same hospital. Kyrie and Asumu are easier to imagine for that scenario, because Rudolf impregnated them not too far apart, but we don't know exactly when Natsuhi was going to give birth. This would mean that Jessica was also born June 15th, which she wasn't (otherwise she would remark that she was in EP 3, along with Battler).
People have been thinking that Krauss might have been impotent anyway. If Rudolf is the surrogate father well that doesn't really violate the red about her faithfulness to Krauss becuase she wants to have a child for him, but she can't because he's impotent. And what's the likelihood that two mothers would give birth on the same day? We could add a third one in there without any problems story wise.

That and if Rudolf is her real father it's possible Jessica doesn't even know her real birthday since she'd be just as clueless as Battler and wouldn't even know about the birth situation.
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Old 2010-05-10, 21:52   Link #9863
Marion
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
People have been thinking that Krauss might have been impotent anyway. If Rudolf is the surrogate father well that doesn't really violate the red about her faithfulness to Krauss becuase she wants to have a child for him, but she can't because he's impotent. And what's the likelihood that two mothers would give birth on the same day? We could add a third one in there without any problems story wise.

That and if Rudolf is her real father it's possible Jessica doesn't even know her real birthday since she'd be just as clueless as Battler and wouldn't even know about the birth situation.
We don't know for sure if it was Natsuhi or Krauss caused the failed attempts to get pregnant. I'm more inclined to believe Natsuhi, mostly because she does have a weaker body and had a lot more mental stress than Krauss, which could be also part of the cause.

The likelihood of two mothers giving birth on the same day only existed because Rudolf had sex with them on relatively close dates. Otherwise it wouldn't have occurred. Natsuhi, on the other hand, was on Rokkenjima with Krauss. I just find my suspension of disbelief going to its limit when its suggested Rudolf somehow also got Natsuhi knocked up as well. There's just so much that we can stretch with Rudolf - in EP 6 Kyrie says that Asumu was one of his girlfriends (I don't remember if she said if Asumu was current or a past one) and they had some sort of relationship. Natsuhi is with Krauss and is pretty hands off. I can't believe that Natsuhi would willingly get an injection in one of her eggs if the sperm didn't come from Krauss. She has a lot of pride and honor when it comes to being Krauss's wife.
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Old 2010-05-10, 21:56   Link #9864
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Natsuhi is with Krauss and is pretty hands off. I can't believe that Natsuhi would willingly get an injection in one of her eggs if the sperm didn't come from Krauss. She has a lot of pride and honor when it comes to being Krauss's wife.
That's why I want to think that she never had a baby to begin with. All she has to do is lie about it, and then Jessica can be Asumu's kid. If she's lying she's not even going to feel the pain of child birth.

Now as for a reason why she'd kill the first baby and not the other one. Well I'd like to think it was for a noble reason like it not being blood related to the family or something.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-05-10 at 22:17.
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Old 2010-05-11, 04:55   Link #9865
ErenselTheJester
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Just a thought, but wouldn't Natsuhi's relationship with Beatrice (shown in Ep5) mean that she's acutally friends with whoever Beatrice is? If we assume that their relationship has been this way throughout all the games, then Beatrice is on the "Hiding Kinzo" side or she's on neither side and is just doing for this for this particular game.
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Old 2010-05-11, 07:04   Link #9866
Marion
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
That's why I want to think that she never had a baby to begin with. All she has to do is lie about it, and then Jessica can be Asumu's kid. If she's lying she's not even going to feel the pain of child birth.

Now as for a reason why she'd kill the first baby and not the other one. Well I'd like to think it was for a noble reason like it not being blood related to the family or something.
Except she stated she gave birth in her own personal narration. I don't see why she would lie to herself.
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Old 2010-05-11, 07:14   Link #9867
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
Just a thought, but wouldn't Natsuhi's relationship with Beatrice (shown in Ep5) mean that she's acutally friends with whoever Beatrice is? If we assume that their relationship has been this way throughout all the games, then Beatrice is on the "Hiding Kinzo" side or she's on neither side and is just doing for this for this particular game.
And that points to Shannon again. Unless Ryukishi is playing the card of "giving the readers tons of hints pointing to a particular person while the real culprit is an unsuspectable one" then Shannon is Beatrice. No one matches better than her, any other person would require more difficult explanations to fit with the data in our possession.

Now it could be argued that Natsuhi wasn't shown very friendly to Shannon especially in the first episodes, but the fact that Shannon was the only one whom Natsuhi told about her favorite season implies a certain level of intimacy among them. It means that they had friendly talks before, because I can't think that Natsuhi told Shannon such a thing out of the blue.
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Old 2010-05-11, 11:12   Link #9868
Laserworm
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
And that points to Shannon again. Unless Ryukishi is playing the card of "giving the readers tons of hints pointing to a particular person while the real culprit is an unsuspectable one" then Shannon is Beatrice. No one matches better than her, any other person would require more difficult explanations to fit with the data in our possession.

Now it could be argued that Natsuhi wasn't shown very friendly to Shannon especially in the first episodes, but the fact that Shannon was the only one whom Natsuhi told about her favorite season implies a certain level of intimacy among them. It means that they had friendly talks before, because I can't think that Natsuhi told Shannon such a thing out of the blue.
Shannon seems to be the only one hinted at all of being Beatrice, in eps 1-4. Not much hints though.. But it seems that Beatrice must be Shannon. Beatrice's identity doesn't seem super important, after all it seems she doesn't kill anyone and maybe even has no part in the roles. So it seems possible that Ryukishi is letting us know who Beatrice is at this time.
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Old 2010-05-11, 11:52   Link #9869
KnightOfTwo
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As much as Shannon is hinted at being Beatrice, there are some things that confuse, specifically Zepar and Furfur. If each of the demons is supposed to be represented by one of the servants, then Kanon and Shannon would seemingly fit those two perfectly. That however complicates things then as Shannon would have to be both Beatrice and one of the Demons. The only way I could see to resolve this would be if they are simply personalities, not individuals, which leads us back to Shkanon which I will refuse to believe until it is actually confirmed or denied.

Unless one of those two is Gohda.....nah.
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Old 2010-05-11, 12:18   Link #9870
Laserworm
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Originally Posted by KnightOfTwo View Post
As much as Shannon is hinted at being Beatrice, there are some things that confuse, specifically Zepar and Furfur. If each of the demons is supposed to be represented by one of the servants, then Kanon and Shannon would seemingly fit those two perfectly. That however complicates things then as Shannon would have to be both Beatrice and one of the Demons. The only way I could see to resolve this would be if they are simply personalities, not individuals, which leads us back to Shkanon which I will refuse to believe until it is actually confirmed or denied.

Unless one of those two is Gohda.....nah.
When does it say they are servants? I thought the meta people just represented pieces on the board.
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Old 2010-05-11, 12:23   Link #9871
KnightOfTwo
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
When does it say they are servants? I thought the meta people just represented pieces on the board.
It doesn't say they are servants, your right they represent pieces on the board, but I would just find it odd for at least two different meta individuals to represent Shannon.
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Old 2010-05-11, 12:43   Link #9872
Laserworm
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Originally Posted by KnightOfTwo View Post
It doesn't say they are servants, your right they represent pieces on the board, but I would just find it odd for at least two different meta individuals to represent Shannon.
Isn't it possible for Zepar and Furfur to represent George and Jessica?
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Old 2010-05-11, 12:52   Link #9873
KnightOfTwo
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Isn't it possible for Zepar and Furfur to represent George and Jessica?
Hmmm I had not considered that, it makes more sense but it just seems odd that George and Jessica would be represented as furniture in the meta world. Especially because I am now highly considering one of those two to be the culprit. Regardless I can't rule anything out so the possibility exists and it would fit very nicely, it just doesn't sit well with my gut for some reason.
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Old 2010-05-11, 16:49   Link #9874
Shiro Kaisen
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
Isn't it possible for Zepar and Furfur to represent George and Jessica?
I like this.

A lot.
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Old 2010-05-11, 17:39   Link #9875
Renall
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It's possible, also, for meta-characters to represent objects. The Stakes, Siestas, and possibly Dlanor and her crew are all more likely (or in the case of the Stakes and more or less the Siestas, all but confirmed) to be things than people.
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Old 2010-05-11, 17:56   Link #9876
SeagullCrazy
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
It's possible, also, for meta-characters to represent objects. The Stakes, Siestas, and possibly Dlanor and her crew are all more likely (or in the case of the Stakes and more or less the Siestas, all but confirmed) to be things than people.
I thought the stakes represented the parents. At least, each parent is connected to one of the seven deadly sins:

Natsuhi: Pride
Eva: Greed
Hideyoshi: Gluttony
Kyrie: Envy


Those were the obvious ones. For the other adults:

Krauss: Sloth
Rudolf: Lust
Rosa: Wrath


At least that's what I think. I can see how other interpretations might work, but I think this is the best connection.

(also, this is why I think the parents killed the EP3 first twilight, since the stakes were shown killing them)
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Old 2010-05-11, 18:02   Link #9877
Renall
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I've seen that theory, but it doesn't square with the text. The Stakes always associate themselves with the physical vessels, the vessels themselves are shown both in magic scenes and in Battler's presence, and the ep5 epilogue further associates them with material objects.
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Old 2010-05-11, 18:09   Link #9878
Smeckledorf
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Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
I thought the stakes represented the parents. At least, each parent is connected to one of the seven deadly sins:

Natsuhi: Pride
Eva: Greed
Hideyoshi: Gluttony
Kyrie: Envy


Those were the obvious ones. For the other adults:

Krauss: Sloth
Rudolf: Lust
Rosa: Wrath


At least that's what I think. I can see how other interpretations might work, but I think this is the best connection.

(also, this is why I think the parents killed the EP3 first twilight, since the stakes were shown killing them)
I don't know about that last part, but you listed exactly the same people I think the stakes represented. However, this is very weak proof for the murders of the first twilight.
I'll add something, though. Beatrice's 'magic kills' scenes likely have implications for the reality. Beatrice faked her death in the fight against Virgilia to make the fight more entertaining and Beatrice continued the fight even though she had already won. So, I would say Beatrice in the real world fakes her death every game and she kills even after obtaining her objective each game.
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Old 2010-05-11, 18:15   Link #9879
Judoh
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Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
I thought the stakes represented the parents. At least, each parent is connected to one of the seven deadly sins:

Natsuhi: Pride
Eva: Greed
Hideyoshi: Gluttony
Kyrie: Envy


Those were the obvious ones. For the other adults:

Krauss: Sloth
Rudolf: Lust
Rosa: Wrath


At least that's what I think. I can see how other interpretations might work, but I think this is the best connection.
I think the way it worked was that the people who represented the sins were staked by stakes corresponding to those sins. And that's a really old theory that I don't even rely on anymore. It's been around since episode 2 and it's in the beginners speculation thread. If the theory had any merit I think we'd have more hints by episode 5 about who represents whom.
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Old 2010-05-11, 18:21   Link #9880
Marion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
I thought the stakes represented the parents. At least, each parent is connected to one of the seven deadly sins:

Natsuhi: Pride
Eva: Greed
Hideyoshi: Gluttony
Kyrie: Envy


Those were the obvious ones. For the other adults:

Krauss: Sloth
Rudolf: Lust
Rosa: Wrath


At least that's what I think. I can see how other interpretations might work, but I think this is the best connection.

(also, this is why I think the parents killed the EP3 first twilight, since the stakes were shown killing them)
As Judoh already said, this has been around since forever. Whether or not it holds merit or not is to be told.

Only reason I'm responding? Why does everyone think Rudolf's major sin is Lust, when Ryukishi clearly showed in EP 3 that his major sin is Sloth. So what, Rudolf fought a demon completely unrelated to him, while Kyrie got paired with her sin? That makes no sense. Not to say Rudolf doesn't have some lust, but it's secondary. Rosa is the one with Lust as her sin - Beatrice even says this in EP 4 while Maria is torturing Rosa. Rosa sleeps around with men, neglecting her duties as a parent. Rudolf doesn't sleep around anymore and we know he's clearly trying to change his ways, while Rosa shows intention of changing.
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