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Old 2010-05-11, 18:34   Link #9881
SeagullCrazy
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Then what about this? If the stakes don't represent the adults, then what does represent them? Does that mean we're going to get 7 more fantasy characters even though 7 characters with connections to the adults already exist?

You can't just say only certain characters have fantasy counterparts. Either Ryukishi is going to show us all of the other side of the chessboard, or he's not going to show it to us at all.
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Old 2010-05-11, 18:53   Link #9882
Smeckledorf
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
As Judoh already said, this has been around since forever. Whether or not it holds merit or not is to be told.

Only reason I'm responding? Why does everyone think Rudolf's major sin is Lust, when Ryukishi clearly showed in EP 3 that his major sin is Sloth. So what, Rudolf fought a demon completely unrelated to him, while Kyrie got paired with her sin? That makes no sense. Not to say Rudolf doesn't have some lust, but it's secondary. Rosa is the one with Lust as her sin - Beatrice even says this in EP 4 while Maria is torturing Rosa. Rosa sleeps around with men, neglecting her duties as a parent. Rudolf doesn't sleep around anymore and we know he's clearly trying to change his ways, while Rosa shows intention of changing.
Rudolph represents lust because Rosa is wrath. You can't use Kyrie fighting her sin as proof when there were only 2 fights. If two other people fought their sins and Rudolph had Sloth then I would be more tempted to agree. You need a bigger sample to use proof like. You also say, "... he's clearly trying to change his ways..." How would we know this? We don't see him living his regular life really.
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Old 2010-05-11, 19:05   Link #9883
Marion
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Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
Rudolph represents lust because Rosa is wrath. You can't use Kyrie fighting her sin as proof when there were only 2 fights. If two other people fought their sins and Rudolph had Sloth then I would be more tempted to agree. You need a bigger sample to use proof like. You also say, "... he's clearly trying to change his ways..." How would we know this? We don't see him living his regular life really.
Rosa only gets angry at Maria when she's pushed too much. I would be more inclined to put Eva as Wrath because she gets angry at everybody and is always pushing people around. But Rosa's much more Lust because she's neglecting Maria to constantly sleep with men and even implies that Maria is the reason she can't get any guy to be with her, which adds on to her lust. She cares more about getting a man than taking care of her daughter, which Rudolf clearly doesn't do.

I just don't see why Ryukishi would write Kyrie fighting her sin and then just make Rudolf fight a completely random sister for no reason. Whenever the sisters were fighting the humans it was always because that human corresponded to their sin somehow. Satan and Lucifer fought Kanon, Beelzebub killed Gohda onscreen, Asmodeus killed Jessica onscreen. It always matched up. So why make it random for Rudolf - there is no reason or rhyme to this if everything we see in a fantasy scene is suppose to be hinting at something. The only reason he gets staked with Lust in EP 3 is because we see him destroying Belphegor, so he gets stabbed with his secondary sin stake instead.
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Old 2010-05-11, 19:39   Link #9884
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Rosa only gets angry at Maria when she's pushed too much. I would be more inclined to put Eva as Wrath because she gets angry at everybody and is always pushing people around. But Rosa's much more Lust because she's neglecting Maria to constantly sleep with men and even implies that Maria is the reason she can't get any guy to be with her, which adds on to her lust. She cares more about getting a man than taking care of her daughter, which Rudolf clearly doesn't do.
Err just a quick thought of mine but I've always had a problem with Eva being represented by greed. I'd agree with marion in that Eva is much a more a represention of Wrath than Greed. Heres a couple of points for my thoughts on this.

1. Eva is consistantly shown to be more most competant of the four siblings as fair as I'm concerned. She's shown to have been hard working and bright as a child and as a adult throughout the episodes. If her sin was one of Greed it more make more sense if she was incompetant and still sought the successor's position. Instead we are shown that despite her relative brilliance in comparison to Krauss and Rudolf especially she is always dismissed as a possible successor.

2. The point above is always her motivation, despite her intelligence (after all she is the only one of the siblings to slove the epitath) she is always looked down at because of he gender. As we have seen this infuriates her intensely, Eva-Beatrice's murders of her siblings is based on the anger towards her siblings. It makes more sense of her being wrath as it ties in with her inner (and badly disguised) anger that she was never taken seriously because of her gender.

Over all it makes much more sense having Eva as a personification of wrath than say greed. In comparison to her brothers especially she always appears much more hard working and intelligent than them, It would make more sense if she was incompetant and was greedly claiming the leadership but she works hard to try and get herslef, and family, a chance to claim it. She usually takes the lead when a suspect is proclaimed and her claims to usually backed up with some logic. This logic however is usually compromised by her bias which makes sense if she is wrath, he anger and resentment gets in the way of her thinking clearly.

I don't know if this fits with the narrative 100% as its been a while since I read them and exams and stuff have prevented me from going back over them, but what do people think?
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Old 2010-05-11, 19:58   Link #9885
Judoh
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Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
Either Ryukishi is going to show us all of the other side of the chessboard, or he's not going to show it to us at all.
Why do the stakes have to represent anything other then stakes? And really how does this give use more info on the characters that we didn't already know? Krauss is lazy? Natsuhi is prideful? Big whoop. It doesn't tell us anything that we didn't already know from the statements we were already given.

It isn't even necessary to add more representations for the characters. Why do all the characters need to be represented on the meta level? When was that ever made into a rule? That just seems to be an assumption people like to have.
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Old 2010-05-11, 20:16   Link #9886
SeagullCrazy
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
It isn't even necessary to add more representations for the characters. Why do all the characters need to be represented on the meta level?
Character development. When did Ronove first appear? That's right, when Genji stopped getting character development. The same goes for Kumasawa. I thought of this in EP6 when suddenly Ronove and Virgilia disappeared and Genji and Kumasawa were in their place. Not to mention the fact that Kumasawa is shown transforming into Virgilia twice (EP3 and EP6). When the human characters start becoming less important, it gives them character development on the meta-level.

Also, isn't it interesting that the high-ranked adults would be low-level furniture in the meta-world? How's that for flipping the chessboard over?

Last edited by SeagullCrazy; 2010-05-13 at 15:52. Reason: spelling errors
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Old 2010-05-11, 22:07   Link #9887
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Hmmm I had not considered that, it makes more sense but it just seems odd that George and Jessica would be represented as furniture in the meta world. Especially because I am now highly considering one of those two to be the culprit. Regardless I can't rule anything out so the possibility exists and it would fit very nicely, it just doesn't sit well with my gut for some reason.
This is also another way for those two to be a trap. Because most people automatically assume that they represent Shannon and Kanon.

Or as Rendall said they could be just objects.. but what objects I don't really have an idea. Besides; maybe that broach, it doesn't seem like they talk about any object much
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Old 2010-05-11, 22:32   Link #9888
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Let me stress: They could be objects. They could be people. They could be abstract concepts. Who can say for sure what they represent. However, objects and people have been shown - canonically - to be "vessels" for magic characters. They could be either, or neither.
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Old 2010-05-12, 07:36   Link #9889
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Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
Rudolph represents lust because Rosa is wrath. You can't use Kyrie fighting her sin as proof when there were only 2 fights. If two other people fought their sins and Rudolph had Sloth then I would be more tempted to agree. You need a bigger sample to use proof like. You also say, "... he's clearly trying to change his ways..." How would we know this? We don't see him living his regular life really.
Actually in Episode4 Beatrice claims that Rosa's sin is lust. It's one of the few cases where a sin association has been explicitly stated.

If I had to use my personal judgement I'd say that Rudolf's sin is lust and Rosa's sin is wrath. Certainly I wouldn't say that Rudolf's sin is sloth since he's been described as a workaholic (unless he just pretends to work a lot and spends his time with girls instead, but that's a conjecture).

However following Ryukishi's hints then Rosa is lust, and because of that all the other associations need to be adjusted. The second person most prone to anger is Natsuhi, then Krauss would be pride and Rudolf is left with sloth.

I guess it's possible that Ryukishi interprets "sloth" as a lifestyle full of vices, rather than a lazy attitude.
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Old 2010-05-12, 08:36   Link #9890
Raiza Sunozaki
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Before, I was more partial to the thought that being killed by a sister simply meant being killed with the corresponding stake, but now, with the high possibility that the stakes might've been used afterwards to make it look like they were killed with them.
The problem with assigning the sins is that different stakes are shown fighting/being stuck into people in different Episodes. I think there was a chart of list brought up a hundred pages or so back that had a list of the stakings in each Episode, and there wasn't an obvious pattern to them.

But since we're on the topic of meta-assigning, how about the other characters? Here's what I think the general agreement was, plus my own opinions.
Beato - Represents someone with feelings towards Battler in the meta-world. Most likely Shannon, followed by Jessica. On the game board, I think she is a projected image used to hide the identity of the mastermind.
Ronove - Genji. As far as I can tell, no room for disagreement.
Virgillia - Kumasawa. Same as Ronove.
Gaap - Nanjo/Jessica were the popular choices for her, if I remember correctly. However, you'd think she'd be someone who reflects her relationship with Virgillia, but there isn't really anybody who likes to tease Kumasawa.
Eva-Beatrice - I think she's similar to game board Beato, used to hide the culprit and place suspicion on Eva at the same time.
Goldsmith - Can't be Kinzo, but I personally think it's another projected image used in exchange with Beato to hide the identity of the culprit.
Erika - If she's simply just another projected image, it would make things much easier, but there's ample proof that she's a definite object on the island. There's the "Erika Ball" theory, but that doesn't seem to have much support. I'm not so inclined to think she's simply just another personality, since I believe the only one that needs a split personality is Beato's human counterpart. Here's something I thought up though. The "Erika Ball" theory falls flat because there is no proof that anyone is carrying around a ball, if I remember correctly. So why don't we assign her to another object, one that represents most of what she does on the island. The tape. We know it exists, as we've seen it several time (not from an objective narrative, maybe, but we have seen it), and most of what Erika does is seal up various places using the tape.
Siestas - I think the common agreement was that they represent culprits that killed with guns or are just the meta-form of the guns themselves.
Dlanor and the Inquisitors - Sounds like an band from a few decades back. I don't think there's been much debate on what they represent here, but I seem to remember somebody speculating that they might represent the keys that provide definite seals to rooms in the mansion, and everyone seemed to roll with that.
Zepar and Furfur - The most popular thought is that they represent Shannon and Kanon, but I admit; I do like Laserworm's thought that they represent Jessica and George. Considering how it's Jessica who get's "possesed" by one of them. At the same time though, Zepar and Furfur seem to have a very close relationship, one that would indicate siblings over cousins.
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Old 2010-05-12, 09:47   Link #9891
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See my sig for the staking list.
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Old 2010-05-12, 11:36   Link #9892
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunder Book View Post
In Episode 5, when Battler says

Spoiler for Episode 5 Spoilers I guess:


What is is that he's referencing?
In Higurashi no naku koro ni Watanagashi-hen, Shion and Keiichi suspects that the people close to them are getting killed one after another to make them feel fear and sadness before they are eventually killed themselves. This happens after they entered the forbidden shrine during the Watanagashi festival.

It fits so well, so I strongly believe this is what is being referenced. Also, it makes sense to me for Keiichi to be Battler's favorite character. After all, they are both Ryukishi male leads .
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Old 2010-05-12, 17:41   Link #9893
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Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
But since we're on the topic of meta-assigning, how about the other characters? Here's what I think the general agreement was, plus my own opinions.

Gaap - Nanjo/Jessica were the popular choices for her, if I remember correctly. However, you'd think she'd be someone who reflects her relationship with Virgillia, but there isn't really anybody who likes to tease Kumasawa.

Zepar and Furfur - The most popular thought is that they represent Shannon and Kanon, but I admit; I do like Laserworm's thought that they represent Jessica and George. Considering how it's Jessica who get's "possesed" by one of them. At the same time though, Zepar and Furfur seem to have a very close relationship, one that would indicate siblings over cousins.
I still like the idea that Rosa might be Gaap. And Rosa does tease Kumasawa at some points.

And to back up my idea of Z & F being J & G, They are some points that show J & G are really close, they both punch/knee Battler at the same time both sides of his ribs in ep 5.
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Old 2010-05-12, 18:06   Link #9894
Marion
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My problem with Zepar and Furfur being George and Jessica is that the former duo are clearly shown to be twins. The only difference between them is the hairstyle and color scheme, but otherwise Ryukishi used the same body template for them. Plus they never appear onscreen without the other being close by and are always present with one another, which again hints to Shkannon since they are two in one.

The biggest thing is how they always talk about love. As in always talking about it. Between Shannon and Kanon and George and Jesssica, the former clearly speaks about love to a farther extent and says it is the only way for them to become human.
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Old 2010-05-12, 19:15   Link #9895
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
If I had to use my personal judgement I'd say that Rudolf's sin is lust and Rosa's sin is wrath. Certainly I wouldn't say that Rudolf's sin is sloth since he's been described as a workaholic (unless he just pretends to work a lot and spends his time with girls instead, but that's a conjecture).
Rudolf has something he needs to do or tell Battler and Kyrie about, but doesn't. His sin could be argued to be sloth on the basis of failing to do something he is obligated to do, because it would be difficult.

There's also the matter of Pride. Krauss fits being the eldest and not revealing Kinzo's death as a matter of personal pride, but Eva is the one who acts most "prideful" in the sense of the sin.

But if you reach enough you can justify nearly any sin with nearly any of the adults. I'm still not sure where people get Gluttony for Hideyoshi from. Because he's fat? Bit of a stretch. It's never really been demonstrated that he's a big guy because of excesses. The people who seem to live to excess are Rosa and maybe Rudolf.

Personally, I think it's reading a bit too much in.
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Old 2010-05-12, 21:59   Link #9896
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As far as the Stakes-> Siblings thing goes, I agree in that it's sort of useless (what purpose does it serve to associate the siblings with the deadly sins?)

But because I think it's clever of Ryukishi to do that (ahah) here's my opinion:

Krauss: Greed

Obviously, Krauss likes money. In fact, he was willing to spend money he didn't have in order to accumulate MORE money with his Rokkenjima-Tourist Attraction plan. He always had "get-rich" quick plans and insight about his problem is highlighted in Episode 5.

Natsuhi: Pride

Natushi is a generally proud person. This becomes painfully apparent in Episode 5 when she accepts the false verdict to save the name of her father-in-law. There doesn't seem to be much debate on this one.

Eva: Envy

We all know that Eva is the most competent of the siblings, yet the title of "Family Head" continues to elude her grasp. This eats her alive, because she knows she deserves the headship. The only thing keeping her from doing so is her birth (she's the second one born, as well as Kinzo's discrimination against her as a female). She holds it against her brother, Krauss, because she is jealous of him (or rather, his postion as a man and the first-born child).

Hideyoshi: Gluttony

To be honest, this one is a stretch. This is one of the ones that was left after my initial classification. I attribute Hideyoshi to gluttony because he owns a chain-restaurant business. I guess him being chubby is sort of a hint as well Perhaps more information on Hideyoshi's past will be revealed later on. After all, the adult characters that don't really have that much backstory are Kyrie and Hideyoshi.

Rudolf: Lust

Well, he impregnated two women in the time span of a couple months. Q.E.D.

Kyrie: Sloth

This one bothers me the most. This is the other sin that I had to "make it work." Here are a couple of possible explanations:

1.) The definition of sloth that most of us are familiar with is attributed to "laziness." This does not seem to apply to Kyrie that much. I'm starting to think that it has something to do with the Sumadera family. Maybe more insight will be provided later.
2.) I did some research on the Biblical references to "sloth," and was surprised that it really does not have that much to do with laziness at all. Rather, the definition I found was this:

"Sloth is defined as spiritual or emotional apathy, neglecting what God has spoken, and being physically and emotionally inactive. Acedia is a Latin word, from Greek ἁκηδείᾱ, meaning 'Carelessness'."

I looked up acedia as well:

"Acedia is a state of listlessness or torpor, of not caring or not being concerned with one's position or condition in the world. It can lead to a state of being unable to perform one's duties in life. Its spiritual overtones make it related to but distinct from depression."

Now THIS applies to Kyrie. I honestly don't remember the specifics with Kyrie's family conflicts, but I do remember that she was in line to become the Sumadera family head. If I remember correctly, she did not want this position at all. In fact, she married into the Ushiromiya family to evade this, didn't she?

She ignored her responsibilities of a Sumadera and just walked out on what was destined for her.

Or am I mistaken? If this what I say is correct, we have a possible link to Kyrie as the embodiment of sloth.

Rosa: Wrath

We are shown Rosa's true colors in Episode 2 and Episode 4. She has a tendency to have a temper when things don't exactly go her way. You know, beating up her only mistake-child on a regular basis. Normal people don't do that.


However, there are many hints that support other theories (for instance, Rosa being lust and Kyrie being envy or Eva being greed, etc.) but this is what I think after playing up to Episode 5.
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Old 2010-05-12, 22:10   Link #9897
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It seems to be skated around a bit, but perhaps it would be prudent to think of how the adults relate to the different stakes in a sense which is more related to what causes the tragedy to come about rather than their personality on the whole.
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Old 2010-05-12, 22:43   Link #9898
Marion
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Kyrie being Sloth completely ignores the fact that she fought Leviathan, stated herself she was jealous for 18 years and the fact that she got Leviathan to help her fight Jessica in EP 6. She ignored her duties to her original family, but then again considering how the Sumadera family is a supposed yakuza family I can see her wanting to get out of that craziness. Kyrie is the clearest choice for envy because of all these factors.

And again, Rudolf did impregnate two women, but he also feels remorse. Being lustful means you feel no remorse for doing what you do, yet Rudolf clearly knows what he did was wrong. This is why Rosa fits into it, because she feels no remorse for leaving Maria home alone almost every night to be with a man. This is why I peg her as lust, rather than wrath.

The way I see it is like this:

Natsuhi - Pride
Kyrie - Envy
Eva - Wrath
Rudolf - Sloth
Krauss - Greed
Hideyoshi - Gluttony
Rosa - Lust
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Old 2010-05-12, 22:52   Link #9899
DaBackpack
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Yeah, there seem to be hints pointing in multiple directions for each of the family members. I did pick up on the 18 years of jealousy for Kyrie, but I thought Eva would be better suited (because I couldn't think of anything really for her, haha).

And I guess I didn't really consider the stakes themselves.

However, I don't think the same stakes kill the same people each game, do they?

And I'd agree with your order, except the part about Eva being wrath.

She was generally angry, but I don't really think of her as a wrathful person.

Anyway you put it, there's at least one that doesn't really fit too well.

Edit: I see what you're saying with Rudolf, but I don't really think of him as sloth.

I mean, if I were to supposedly kill someone but I felt remorse for it later, that doesn't change the fact that I was murderous when I committed the crime.

So by succumbing to his desires, he exhibited lust. Even if he knew he was wrong, he did not possess the willpower (at the time) to overcome his sexual cravings.

Rosa, on the other hand, just seems to be a whore. I think that her wrath is caused by the sexual frustration she experiences because of her daughter. We are presented with a chicken-and-the-egg type problem: does she represent lust because she wants love, or does she represent wrath because she is unable to control the hopelessness of not finding a man?
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Old 2010-05-12, 23:51   Link #9900
Judoh
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Now that I think about it we haven't even gotten a mention of any male Sumaderas have we? Does that mean that the Sumadera family prefers a power structure of the Matriarchal style rather then Kinzo's Patriarchal style?
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