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Old 2010-05-15, 07:59   Link #9941
Laserworm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziren View Post
This might be not important at all but I have been curious for a while now: if certain servants are supposed to be somehow related to the witches' furniture: Like Genji and Ronove, Kumawasa and Virgilia, Shanon/Kanon and Furfur/Zepar, why is it that only Ronove and Virgilia wear the one-winged eagle on their clothing? After all, Shanon and Kanon both have it, while Furfur and Zepar don't.

Or am I just absolutely wrong and magic furniture has nothing to do with humans on the game board?
That don't have to be servants. The meta characters just represent a human character. Ronove = Genji, Virgilia = Kumasawa. And Virgilia doesn't have the one-winged eagle either I think, it is something that looks close to it though.

Edit: I just noticed something if we think of Beatrice as Shannon we get connections. Virgilia is Beato's teacher. Kumaswa is Shannon's mentor, and is like a mother figure as well. Ronove is Beato's buttler, but he sometimes acts kind an older wiser figure. Genji is a buttler, and Shannon looks up to him and listens to him. The Virgilia one makes more sense, but I wonder if we can find people to click at least a little like that with Beato for Gaap, Zepar and Furfur.
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Old 2010-05-15, 12:39   Link #9942
CainSonozaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziren View Post
This might be not important at all but I have been curious for a while now: if certain servants are supposed to be somehow related to the witches' furniture: Like Genji and Ronove, Kumawasa and Virgilia, Shanon/Kanon and Furfur/Zepar, why is it that only Ronove and Virgilia wear the one-winged eagle on their clothing? After all, Shanon and Kanon both have it, while Furfur and Zepar don't.

Or am I just absolutely wrong and magic furniture has nothing to do with humans on the game board?
actually someone before said that Zepar and Furfur could really represent George and Jessica. Which does make some sense considering each magical power George and Zepar have defensive power and Jessica and Furfur have offensive power
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Old 2010-05-15, 12:52   Link #9943
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But George and Jessica got their defensive / offensive powers from Shannon and Kanon.
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Old 2010-05-15, 13:34   Link #9944
Laserworm
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Is there any other aspect of Zepar/Furfur, besides they talk about love, and how funiture can become human.

For Gaap we have:
  • Teases Kumaswa/Virgilia.
  • Causes things to get lost when people are looking for them.
  • Calls herself a guest
  • On friendly terms with Beato.
Any others for Gaap? Ok breaking things down now.

Is a guest.
  • Anyone bedsides the servants, Natsuhi, and Krauss
  • Doesn't Jessica call herself a guest at one point (?)
Causes things to get lost.
  • Anyone
Teases Kumasawa
  • Eva
  • Jessica (?)
  • Rosa
On friendly terms with Beato (Shannon)
  • Jessica
  • Rosa (?)
Anything I missed?
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Old 2010-05-15, 13:44   Link #9945
Judoh
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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
But George and Jessica got their defensive / offensive powers from Shannon and Kanon.
Since when? The only time we see them is in fantasy scenes. And Shannon and Kanon aren't around when they fight in episode 4. That and Kanon has nothing to do with Jessica's fist fighting with brass knuckles.
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Old 2010-05-15, 15:09   Link #9946
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
Causes things to get lost.
  • Anyone
I think I have a fairly good case to claim it's Rosa.
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Old 2010-05-15, 15:27   Link #9947
Laserworm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
I totally agree with you; I think Gaap is Rosa.
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Old 2010-05-15, 16:23   Link #9948
Raiza Sunozaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
I totally agree with you; I think Gaap is Rosa.
If this is true though, and actions of fantasy characters match their real counterparts, then Rosa would've had to have been in on several of the hidden agendas at one point or another, at least from Episode 4 and on. She would've assisted Goldsmith in capturing everyone except the cousins, Gohda and Kumaswa (who is also very dubious, considering Virgillia helped him as well). She would've possibly been the person who fought George and though unlikely, killed him. On the other hand, she would've been someone who helped moved the corpses from the first twilight in Episode 5, which makes sense, since she's one of them.
It can fit, espcially if you consider it's very likely the fantasy scene for the first twilight of Episode 4 doesn't actually represent anybody being killed. I'm just a little dubious though. Some of Gaap's mannerisms and actions during the Episodes don't quite fit Rosa all that well.
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Old 2010-05-15, 16:37   Link #9949
rogerpepitone
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I've heard the suggestion that Rosa had solved the epitaph already, but in most episodes lacked the self-confidence to declare it.
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Old 2010-05-15, 16:53   Link #9950
Marion
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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
I've heard the suggestion that Rosa had solved the epitaph already, but in most episodes lacked the self-confidence to declare it.
I don't see why she would lack the self-confidence, when in EP 3 she's the one who suggested to Eva that they tell everyone immediately.
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Old 2010-05-15, 17:00   Link #9951
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
I've heard the suggestion that Rosa had solved the epitaph already, but in most episodes lacked the self-confidence to declare it.
I don't think she's the person who has solved the Epitaph before the conference. It would go against what we've seen of the adults and especially what we see in Episode 3. The adults are shown over and over again to be greedy, regardless of why they need the money, and they show little hesitation to use black measures to aquire it. And when one of them, Eva, is shown to discover the gold, she becomes completely paranoid and high-strung over it, even developing schizophrenia, which say she should keep it for herself.
The adults are shown to not be the proper people to discover the gold. It has to be someone who would be fair and kind with it, which is why I think an ideal person to find it before Battler would be someone like Shannon or Jessica.
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Old 2010-05-15, 17:02   Link #9952
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
She would've assisted Goldsmith in capturing everyone except the cousins, Gohda and Kumaswa (who is also very dubious, considering Virgillia helped him as well).
Metaphorically, that would mean help convince them that it is better to proceed with creating the delusion for the kids and say Kinzo is alive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
She would've possibly been the person who fought George and though unlikely, killed him.
...that is, test George according to questionnaire from Kinzo's will, and destroy his chances to be the next head.

He could have died quite a bit afterwards and probably did.

Quote:
Some of Gaap's mannerisms and actions during the Episodes don't quite fit Rosa all that well.
Consider her words to her random lover in Ep4. Notice how she complains about people who 'won't have anyone but a virgin'. If she were after middle-aged men like that particular lover, I doubt she would have many encounters with people who say that, middle aged men engaging in sex on the side generally don't care quite as much. It looks to me that her preferred taste is younger, handsome men, -- just like Gaap says in no uncertain words -- who obviously don't want to burden themselves with someone else's child and won't seriously consider marrying Rosa, and that is one reason she suffers through a chain of lovers rather than a singular, if adulterous, relationship. That middle-aged lover was an exception, and precisely because he was, she could say all that to him.


As far as I can see, magical scenes do indeed reflect who's doing what -- but they cloud it all in metaphor, and only the end result matches, but that doesn't mean the end result was even described happening in the magical scene.

In particular Ep4 starts making a lot more sense if you imagine that it's not Kinzo who enters the dining hall pompously, but his written will. Notice how Kinzo's speech is referred to as incoherent in Ep5 when Krauss tells everyone to 'stay where you are!'. But Kinzo's monologues as we see them are eloquent and extremely long... as if written. Consider also the unusual scene a bit later when he verbally squishes the poor rabbits right there and then. They're... well, furniture -- not deserving to even be the object of his wrath, certainly not someone who could ever match up to him and his expectations for a head of Ushiromiya family, what's the point or pleasure to talk to them like that? The obvious explanation is that it has been part of the written will, and rabbits were just the closest characters on hand to listen to it.

As I have mentioned before, if Kinzo's will actually exists and says what Kinzo says in this scene, the entire family is screwed. They get no inheritance period, unless Kinzo is alive and the transfer of headship occurs while he is alive. So they concoct a complicated story to take advantage of the last loophole Kinzo left them -- that is, transfer headship to a deserving grandchild of his, while Kinzo is 'still alive'.

Then someone takes advantage of it and makes sure to murder everyone to match.
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Old 2010-05-15, 17:03   Link #9953
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
I've heard the suggestion that Rosa had solved the epitaph already, but in most episodes lacked the self-confidence to declare it.
Rather than just a lack of self-confidence, it might have been a rational judgment that her position was too weak to keep control of the gold herself. In that case it would make sense for her to lead someone else in a stronger position to the gold, such as Eva, and get them to agree to split it in exchange for support.

I think this is only plausible if the letter from Beatrice the Golden isn't connected to the fake death plot, though.
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Old 2010-05-15, 17:09   Link #9954
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
I wonder how many people have gotten to the truth. Ryukishi claims that probably a decent amount of people have it or are close to it. But he thinks WAY TOO HIGHLY of us. For example, he didn't think the readers would get so caught off guard by the fantasy scenes in ep2, he thought a good precent would see through them. But when everyone was lost, he had to change ep3, and include Virgilia and Ronove to help the player. I wonder how Battler would have gotten along without them appearing, like it was orignally planned.

And Battler isn't really anti-mystery, he is more wishy-washy, I feel. He shifts back and forth between Mystery and Fantasy, he tries to fight right on the line that divides the two.

Edit: Is it possible that ep4 is mostly a theory destorying Ep. Because afterall if Umineko is solvable by ourselves, then their must only really be 1 answer per ep (At least) But we have so many theories for each ep, so sometime there must be facts that destory most if not all of our theories, or evidence that points to the answer of that ep, so we can weed out the wrong theories. And I really think Ryukishi should stop putting so much faith in us, he expected at least a small amount of people to solve Umineko after ep4, and what maybe 1 or 2 people only did. I actually really hope we get a solid showing of the answer in ep8, instead of Ryukishi expecting a great number of people to know the answer, but only a small percent actually do, while the rest are completely lost.

And does Ryukishi understand the meaning of alibi? Alibi is a claim or showing of a small amount of proof that suggests you were somewhere else at the time of the crime. But yet in ep1. Regarding Kanon’s attack in the boiler room. All of the survivors have alibis! Let us include the dead as well! How does Kumasawa have an alibi? The only way she could have one is if she could have been with someone else. Who was she with? Wasn't she following close behind Kanon? And no one else seems to claim Kumasawa was with them. Jesscia even accuses her, which shows that she probably wasn't with the cousins, Natsuhi, Nanjo, or Genji (Cause weren't they all together?). Though it could work like this;

Kumasawa: I was with Genji at the time of Kanon's attack.
Genji: That is correct, Kumasawa was with me; we were talking in the hallway near the kitchen.

In this example both Kumaswa and Genji are giving an alibi, 'they are both saying the other is with them.' But this doesn't make them innocent at all,
Genji and Kumasawa could be lying and Genji is saying Kumaswa was with him at the time, but she wasn't. This statement makes the red true because Kumasawa has an alibi. Or; They were together, but they are both the culprit and they double teamed Kanon. This would make the red true still because, Genji is claiming they were in the different area.

Now if it wasn't for this red. In short, no human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon. I would think that someone is pretending Kumawasa or someone else was with them, or that they saw them.

But I still wonder who was with Kumasawa. If I remember right, wasn't everyone else together expect her?

Edit 2: Yep I checked the manga, and everyone is together expect Kumasawa (And Kanon of course). So doesn't this prove, that someone faked their death before this and Kumaswa was with them?
It doesn't prove anything because Kanon could have faked his death in the boiler room using red paint as blood and setting a stake with a red stain on next to him. After he was carried away he got Nanjo and Jessica to lie about him being dead. After all, Battler never saw his body in that ep, or even the wound. There is a good chance that Kanon is still walking around, thus he wasn't killed in the boiler room and so no one of the others need to have faked their death before this.

Also, once Kanon is "dead", he is "everywhere" so he could be the culprit of any murder after that.

Also regarding the red truth " All of the survivors have alibis! Let us include the dead as well! " Beato says that in red, but it doesn't mean that we have seen or heard the alibi for Kumasawa or any of the others right? It just means that proof exists to prove where Kumasawa was at the time of the crime and the existence of that proof is proven with the red.
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Old 2010-05-15, 17:28   Link #9955
LyricalAura
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You kind of missed my point. I wasn't talking about if Kanon was dead or not. Just how Kumaswa has an alibi, that we don't know about. Since everyone else aside Kanon and Kumasawa is with him. And the victim can't provide an alibi for someone. The way the red is phrased in that statment, sounds like Kumasawa was actually with someone, thus the red is true, she has a solid alibi which proves that she was somewhere else at the time of Kanon's attack. My point is who is she with? She can't be with Battler's group otherwise they would have seen her.
An alibi is any reason why the person in question couldn't have committed the crime. It doesn't have to be testimony from another person. The fact that Kanon wasn't attacked in the first place is itself an ironclad alibi for everyone else.
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Old 2010-05-15, 17:39   Link #9956
Laserworm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
An alibi is any reason why the person in question couldn't have committed the crime. It doesn't have to be testimony from another person. The fact that Kanon wasn't attacked in the first place is itself an ironclad alibi for everyone else.
*smacks head* Oh yeah what was I thinking.... An alibi only works if a crime actually happened. If Kanon get attacked, everyone has an alibi. Sorry; I apologize for my stupid train of thought.
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Old 2010-05-15, 18:21   Link #9957
Dlanor .A. Nox
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I always suspected that Kanon was never attacked in the first place...it's impossible for anyone to commit a crime if that crime didn't happen lol. It wasn't suicide so he wounded himself probably.
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Old 2010-05-15, 18:31   Link #9958
Geekodot
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I always suspected that Kanon was never attacked in the first place...it's impossible for anyone to commit a crime if that crime didn't happen lol. It wasn't suicide so he wounded himself probably.
He didn't even need to be wounded as Battler never clearly saw the wound (he only saw a lot of blood and a stake next to him covered in red). Red paint as a substitute for blood would suffice... I don't think anyone there would've suspected that it could be paint in that situation, especially not with Kinzo's burnt and staked body in the same room.
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Old 2010-05-15, 20:46   Link #9959
Renall
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
An alibi is any reason why the person in question couldn't have committed the crime. It doesn't have to be testimony from another person. The fact that Kanon wasn't attacked in the first place is itself an ironclad alibi for everyone else.
Also, while I'm sure you and most people know this, just to reiterate: An alibi is only an explanation. It may not be TRUE.

For instance, in ep2 Rosa confirms the alibi of Shannon and Genji, and by association her own, when she says she met with Kinzo and he vouched for them. Since we know Kinzo's dead, this obviously never happened as Rosa said, so her claim that Genji and Shannon (or herself) are above suspicion is false. It's an explanation, but it may not be a real one.

Granted, some alibis are trustworthy. If we believe Battler's perspective, for instance, there's not much Maria can do in ep4 because her alibi is being under the detective's observation for much of the game. That alibi, by virtue of Battler's trustworthiness (...maybe), is "safe." An alibi between characters who have no reason to lie to cover for each other is also possible. Consider the First Twilight in ep3; what reason do the adults have to lie about everyone being at the conference all night? Their alibi really can only fail if you buy that all the adults were involved. While not impossible, it's certainly unlikely.
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Old 2010-05-15, 21:55   Link #9960
DaBackpack
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Well, if we're on this allegorical train of thought here (with the furniture actually representing the people on the island), then

who do the goat heads represent? The maximum number of people on the island has already been confirmed.

Thus, the goat heads must represent weapons or traps or something.

I've thought that the Seven Sisters of Purgatory were the Seven Stakes (duh!) and the Siesta Sisters represented the firearms on the island.

But where do the Goat Heads come in on Rokkenjima? Especially with them ripping Battler apart limb from limb in Episode 2.
(Although Battler was really, really drunk when this happened. I guess the modus operandi can be disregarded, but it's still a thought)

Edit: I'm starting to believe that the goat heads represent "nameless" characters (as in one of the siblings with a mask on, or something). The method of attack would have to be something like a knife or fists (since they are generic murder weapons), or something that's really overwhelming and can make multiple attacks like a whip. You know, since whenever a goat head is seen, there's a BUNCH of them.

Once again, Rosa and Maria's death is never really elaborated on. Nor is Battler's. So the possibility exists that they don't even exist at all. Even in George and Shannon's case, although there were Goat Heads there, they weren't killed by them.

Last edited by DaBackpack; 2010-05-15 at 22:01. Reason: Forgetting my standpoint. Duuur
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