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Old 2010-05-21, 02:10   Link #10381
Kylon99
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So... ummm... now that all that has died down, what did people think of the Kanon-Heir theory that I was thinking of?

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...ostcount=10333
and
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...ostcount=10339

Or on the last page, hidden amongst all the 72pt bold fonts. 8)


In retrospect the theory isn't really new, but it's kind of everything put together to get to this point. I think it just feels like there are several theories we have hints for but there's nothing to unify it unless with something like that.

Kanon - Kinzo good relationship
Kinzo's missing will and ring
Beatrice Faction's first twilight faking too serious to be a joke
Shannon - Kanon relationship
George, Jessica and maybe Hideyoshi's plans

I was thinking of Ryukishi said about EP5 and EP6. That they provide 'answers.' If I take it to an extreme then even the so-called 'new' mysteries in EP5 and 6 wouldn't be anything new. They would have to be answers that if you knew the key you'd have no problem with. If you don't know the key then they're huge disruptions that make you think you have to think up new theories. Case in point: 17 people on the island including Erika results in the Erika is Someone Else theory. But this theory is useless from an EP1-4 point of view because it answers nothing there, where supposedly the mystery could be solved. It's just something to get around only what was presented in EP6.

The other thing I was thinking of was the whole EP5 explanation of the Kinzo conspiracy. For the longest time I thought that this was an 'answer' in that it revealed the plan of one of the factions. And that was it. But if you look at the other clues like the First Twilight Fakery, they were presented to us in EP5 and 6 and seemed to be meant for us to take back to EP1-4 for us to ask, 'what if?'

So... what if the Pretend-Kinzo-Is-Alive reveal in EP5 is not just a reveal, but a key like the First Twilight Fakery? What if there's ANOTHER pretend-someone-is-alive conspiracy? I didn't want to think there could be another elaborate plan hatched... but...


At the very least, maybe one of the servants has been named the heir, or was promised some money or something if Kinzo's will was executed. It does seem to explain a lot if the Servants have some kind of evil conspiracy and/or have a greater need to maintain another illusion other than just Beatrice.

By servants, I mean Genji, Kumasawa and Nanjo. Oh and Gouda, Rosa, Shannon, Kanon and maybe George of course. And Shannon and/or Kanon are unwilling participants. It makes George and Shannon's conspiracy against the servants much more likely. It makes the idea that Kanon would kill Nanjo and Kumasawa much more likely. It also may explain the bank account money and why (if it really was him) George would be willing to write the account number on the door; to expose the conspiracy or throw it back in their faces for killing Shannon (though he probably didn't know they didn't kill her.)

It would explain why someone wants to burn Kinzo's body; to trigger the inheritance. It would explain why Shannon and Kanon went to talk to the Eva faction at midnight, and they all conspired to pretend the ring was given to them as someone noticed on here.


It doesn't explain Battler's sin and who Beatrice really is, etc, though. But at least it's a theory that seems to fit a few more things.. maybe we can work with this.

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by J the Drafter View Post
Sorry to throw in a new topic so suddenly, but I have the suspicion that the fourth game is Beatrice's attempt to show the why, and/or possibly the who, behind the initial first twilight plot, though her attempt is hampered by the haze of illusion shrouding the gameboard. The usage of Kinzo as the mastermind just has the feel, looking back on it, of some big revelation. I don't know who can use this thought or how helpful it can be, but here it is.
I think this is why some people theorize the Kinzo-Kanon connection. Kinzo IS Kanon... or Kanon is the new heir... or Kanon is Kinzo's son/grandson/both/uncle/brother AND Nephew... (or daughter/granddaughter/both/aunt/sister AND niece? ) ... there's something suspicious about their relationship. Notice how Kanon spies for Kinzo and he seems to confide in him a lot throughout the episodes.

Last edited by Kylon99; 2010-05-21 at 02:22.
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Old 2010-05-21, 02:39   Link #10382
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I think it has some merit. If Kinzo's will does say Kanon is the heir that would actually explain why he dies so early. Think about this for a minute. If Kinzo's will says "my son/ servant Kanon" is the heir to all my fortune than that probably implies that the inheritance goes to the youngest sibling. Assuming Kanon is Kinzo's son, (and there are scattered hints of a illegitimate heir) than it would make sense why Kanon is killed early so often since he's inheriting what the adults deserve.
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Old 2010-05-21, 02:48   Link #10383
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If Kanon is inheriting all of that though, what is the point of the Epitaph?
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Old 2010-05-21, 02:49   Link #10384
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Originally Posted by Thunder Book View Post
If Kanon is inheriting all of that though, what is the point of the Epitaph?
Inheritance =/= the epitaph's gold. Clearly Krauss went on a spending spree with his moon real estate and there's not much of the inheritance left, but Kinzo didn't know that when he wrote the will and the adults presumably don't know everything either.
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Old 2010-05-21, 02:55   Link #10385
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If Kinzo likes Kanon so much to leave him his inheritance, I can't see why he just wouldn't leave him the gold in that case and make him head or something.
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Old 2010-05-21, 02:59   Link #10386
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If Kinzo likes Kanon so much to leave him his inheritance, I can't see why he just wouldn't leave him the gold in that case and make him head or something.
It wouldn't be as big of a riddle if he just gave the answer away to the first person he trusted. No matter how much he trusts Kanon with his money I'd doubt he'd be happy just telling him the answer after writing something so complicated.

If I were him I'd encourage everybody including my servants to solve it. I'd bet on every horse so I win no matter who reaches the answer.
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Old 2010-05-21, 03:03   Link #10387
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I can't really imagine Kanon solving it, what with him being busy with that furniture complex and stuff...

Though, it does make me wonder if his furniture complex is some psychological result of Kinzo's death if he was truly so close to him.
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Old 2010-05-21, 03:04   Link #10388
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Though, it does make me wonder if his furniture complex is some psychological result of Kinzo's death if he was truly so close to him.
A Father/son hunting accident maybe?
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Old 2010-05-21, 03:05   Link #10389
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There's three things that inheritance can mean:

- Inherit the money and estate
- Inherit the headship
- Inherit the gold

It could be that the will doesn't offer the inheritance of all three to Kanon. Maybe it just makes him the new head... or maybe it just leaves him the money. Maybe it DID leave him the gold but maybe Kanon and some or all of the others don't want it.

There's obviously a Pretend-Kanon-Is-Dead conspiracy somewhere. I wonder if there's more to the conspiracy about Kanon than that...


Anyways, it seems not very plausible that Kanon is dead before the start of the game though. But it does click a bit more if the servants have something to conspire for other than just the First Twilight Fakeries. (EDIT: And this conspiracy has something to do with Kinzo and his inheritance and will.)
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Old 2010-05-21, 03:08   Link #10390
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
A Father/son hunting accident maybe?
What would they hunt? Seagulls?
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Old 2010-05-21, 03:11   Link #10391
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Actually if Kanon is being "kept alive" because of the inheritance that's actually very unlikely. Everyone in the family thinks it works oldest to youngest not youngest to oldest and until episode 4 there isn't really any hint that the adults even see a will.

Kanon would serve as a representative of the youngest siblings if he was Kinzo's son, but pretending he's alive if nobody really recognizes him as succeeding Kinzo doesn't really serve a purpose. Especially not to Battler who would be totally clueless about this.

EDIT: Unless Kanon's the "honored guest" or he's recognized as a living Kinzo because he's named after his father (kinzo jr. theory). But that's totally different.
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Old 2010-05-21, 03:25   Link #10392
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Well, as has been theorized before, it makes sense if Kinzo deliberately chose a distant relationship as his heir rather than let it fall to Krauss, Eva or his immediate descendants. I would not be surprised if Kinzo's will (which he did order Shannon to write in a fantasy scene in EP2) was to name a successor against the normal rules of inheritance. In this way he's trying to replicate his own miracle success.

Everyone in the family may think the inheritance (especially all of it) goes to them instead but if Kinzo's will really says that Kanon inherited it it would be a huge disturbing incident to them. If the servants wield this power but offer the siblings some of the money, I bet they could get them to do anything they wanted. And they wouldn't be happy about it either, perhaps leading to secondary/side stabbings and shootings. 8)


If Kanon is already dead, or died along the way too soon, then maybe the servants lose a lot of their power. They may be trying to pretend he's alive. But the problem is... they pretend he's dead! Maybe Kanon takes it on himself to do that though... hmm. I'm still not sure of it but it seems like the servants are desperate for something, owing to burning Kinzo's body.

Ah well, let me think about it some more...
EDIT: Too sleepy... 8)

This is tied up with what I think Renall or someone said about EP4. They 'recognized Kinzo's existence' as in they all decided to lie about him living. Earlier someone said maybe they wheeled out his body. Maybe what happened was Kanon showed the will to Krauss and Krauss exposed it to the siblings as proof that if they don't help him maintain the illusions they won't get anything because the real Kinzo wanted it that way.
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Old 2010-05-21, 03:34   Link #10393
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
EDIT:
This is tied up with what I think Renall or someone said about EP4. They 'recognized Kinzo's existence' as in they all decided to lie about him living. Earlier someone said maybe they wheeled out his body. Maybe what happened was Kanon showed the will to Krauss and Krauss exposed it to the siblings as proof that if they don't help him maintain the illusions they won't get anything because the real Kinzo wanted it that way.
Elaborate please? By illusions do you mean hiding Kinzo's death? What would that have to do with inheriting the money?
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Old 2010-05-21, 03:42   Link #10394
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Elaborate please? By illusions do you mean hiding Kinzo's death? What would that have to do with inheriting the money?
Basically it's that if Kinzo's death got out then the money would be transfered to people the siblings didn't want transfered to. Like one of the servants or something. But if they all conspired to pretend Kinzo was still alive then there's no problem until they can get the will undone.

For example maybe Shannon or Kanon is the heir, but they don't really want to be. One of their plans may be to expose that to the siblings. The other servants really want them to be so that maybe they get their share but are unwilling to voice that in front of the siblings without the ability to divide and conquer them.

I forgot who mentioned this but it is plausible. What I'm thinking is that the rest of the servants and the Beatrice faction (so maybe George and Rosa) are involved in this as well.


Let's see... if Shannon was the heir then Hideyoshi may like that very, very much. George and Shannon however want their own life and not with Shannon as the head, but on outwards appearances they have to pretend to go along with it until George comes out and has to fight his whole family over it.

--> Speaking of which, you'd think George just has to fight Eva... why is he even prepared to fight the whole family? I don't think anyone else but his parents would care... unless... it's more complicated than that.

EDIT: I really gotta sleep.. I'll re-think this thing tomorrow morning when more of my brain is functioning. 8)
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Old 2010-05-21, 05:51   Link #10395
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post

Let's see... if Shannon was the heir then Hideyoshi may like that very, very much. George and Shannon however want their own life and not with Shannon as the head, but on outwards appearances they have to pretend to go along with it until George comes out and has to fight his whole family over it.

--> Speaking of which, you'd think George just has to fight Eva... why is he even prepared to fight the whole family? I don't think anyone else but his parents would care... unless... it's more complicated than that.

EDIT: I really gotta sleep.. I'll re-think this thing tomorrow morning when more of my brain is functioning. 8)
I don't think Kinzo would make Shannon the heir, after all he said he wouldn't even consider Eva being the heir because she is female.
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Old 2010-05-21, 07:13   Link #10396
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
First of all nowhere is it "confirmed" That Erika is just a corpse that arrives on the island. This is a THEORY based on the tips that some people after the Rokkenjima accident like to BELEIVE that she came there. The reason this theory is used is because people claim that if she dies when she arrives on the island that she can be added as an eighteenth person and still leave the count at seventeen people. For your theory to work you have to kill off two characters. Erika and somebody else. (1)

Second your solution to Kanon's "death" in the boiler room is nothing, but ridiculous. "Oh it's Shannon who was killed there so that red doesn't matter". Can you read english? The red doesn't work like that. Are you saying Kanon's corpse doesn't exist? Because that is the only alternative I can think of. Your telling me to just use suspension of disbelief so that not only Jessica, but Battler mistakes Kanon's corpse for somebody else. I refuse that request on the grounds the way you've presented it has been done so idiotically.

This event in the boiler room would actually be evidence that Shkanon isn't true. Because if it's impossible that Kanon died there than he would obviously be faking his death DUH!! Dying before that is not a solution because the red says it impossible that a human killed him. (2)

Third your are missing huge chunks of red and loads of evidence in your theory. I encourage you to reread the game and the Umineko wiki because clearly you don't know how context works. 07151129 is one of the evidences you glossed over. There is also cigarette butt, the boat ticket, the house keys, and the 100 yen coin in Kyrie's pocket (one of the few cases of physical evidence we have besides Maria's jaw). That you haven't explained (3)

Fourth seriously stop reposting your theory and using that frikkin large font. just edit what you have in keep it in your sig. Your being obnoxious

Fifth in episode 2 Kanon was inside the chapel WITH BATTLER before he left with Jessica. Are you saying that Kanon was Shannon the whole time? In that case why does Rosa defend Shannon along with Genji? She met Shannon in Kinzo's room if she's in on this she should know that Shannon is Kanon. (4)

oh and if your going to argue a disguise. Knox's 8th (5)

I'll repost what I said yesterday regarding this
(1) Who said it is confirmed? It is just a theory I built up. And if you cannot disproove it, don't try just to show other possibilities, because the fact it was not the ONLY thing possible, it doesn't mean it is NOT possible, ok?
(2) The red texts about Kanon are those:
All of the survivors have alibis! Let us include the dead as well!!
In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!
Kanon did not commit suicide
Kanon did not die in an accident!

This red texts have a CONTEXT (yes, I know what it is ) and are referred to the moment when someone died in the boiler room.
Now, your theory about Kanon alive where does it bring? Kanon was alive... and so? Does this put in in a whole context that is related with Umineko solution? Have you found a possible solution that can explain almost everything of the Umineko games? Or else you are going to tell me Kanon is the culprit? And so if he wasn't dead Nanjo and Jessica lied for a cause X which there are no clues for in the whole game? Please, I'd like you to explain this. Until you don't give me a good explanation I'm going to think that "In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!" because he has already died the previous day. And I don't find it ridicolous, it is logical. If it was impossible for everyone to kill Kanon it was because he was already dead. Sorry, but I don't find the connection between the sentence "No one could have killed him" and your sentence "He faked his death". And so, if it was as you say, where are the clues? Don't you remember that Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED!!?
And, come on, I understand you can not share the ShKanon theory, but do you REALLY think that the fact that Battler never sees Kanon and Shannon together, the fact that we don't find Kanon's corpse twice, the fact that someone is trying to create the illusion of a fake Kanon in EP2, even though he is already dead, the fact that George and Jessica always dies before Shannon and Kanon (except in EP5, but I already explained what I thought about EP5), the fact that it does not contradict any of the red said before, etc. are ALL a coincidence? I personally prefer to believe in something with a lot of clues supporting it and that could help resolving the game, rather then in... nothing?
(3) Whoa! There surely is a big mistery behind the key that opens Kyrie's house, behind the ticket of the boat she used to reach Rokkenjima and - above all - under 100 yen coin! Sorry if I haven't already explained that, my theory is completly falling down! I explained the number 07151129 and the cigarette butt, but in comparison with a 100 yen coin they have no points at all! And sorry if I lost a lot of red throughout the game, as you say I don't know what a context is! Can you please show the red that are in contraxt with my theory? D:
(4) You're right, sorry! The argument "Shannon and Genji are not the culprits since Kinzo attested their presence" is more than convincing! And also Rosa is not suspect at all in EP2! And... haven't you read how I had explained EP2 so far?
(5) You're right, the fact they have the same height, they have almost the same face and all hints shown in Episode from 1 to 4 are not enough, sorry!

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Old 2010-05-21, 07:28   Link #10397
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Perhaps I should give a very subtle hint of Shkanon found in EP4:

During Battler and Beatrice's fight in tea party, when confronted with the problem of "Kanon" coming into the kitchen in EP2, Battler raised the possibility of "Just like Kinzo, Kanon's name was inherited by some other people". The blue stake hit at Beatrice's left flank.

Latter, Battler commented that Beatrice was pressing that flank even after the stake was forced out.

This could be interpreted as hinting as someone did inherit the codename "Kanon" because just like Kinzo, he was dead before the game.


Let me propose this: Sayo bore both codenames Shannon and Kanon after Yoshiya's death, presumedly a few days before 4th Oct, 1986. The only people aware of this were: Sayo, Genji and Nanjo.

Further, let me use this proposition to solve the first 4 episodes.

EP1:

The "Kanon" Battler saw was Sayo in disguise. Of course she could not take up the bags of fertilizer. THough Kanon(Yoshiya) could not pick it up as well.

Latter, Sayo changed back to Shannon and went out with the groups. BTW, the reason why she did not move when Battler wanted to touch her breasts, it was because it was padded, she was so frighted.

Next, after coming back from beach, she changed into Kanon and gave the letters and umbrella to Maria (possibly witnessing the rose incident, as Sayo was ensuring all the incomers have seen Kanon. Or George was told to do so.)

Kanon called Battler's group in the guesthouse.

Latter, Sayo accompanied the cousins to guesthouse and met George.

First twilight, the Shannon's smashed corpose was actually Yoshiya. Kanon was Sayo, of course. (The corpse was identifiable (half of the face), therefore excluded from the red texts). Genji was accomplice.

Second twilight, since Genji was accomplice, the magic circle had no trick, Kanon (Sayo) just lied after calling Kumasawa to accompany "him"

Fifth twilight, obviously nobody could kill Kanon (Yoshiya), since he was dead already. And he did not suicide. Of course the person lying on the floor was Sayo.

Since Nanjo knew Yoshiya's death already (Nanjo took care of Yoshiya's body), Nanjo moved Sayo to the servants' room, along with Jessica. Here, Sayo may reveal the death of Yoshiya to Jessica, thus she was so sad.

Let's say Sayo killed the remaining people in the following twilights.



EP2:

First twlight was done by Rosa, the act of disemboweling the corpse was to ruin the autopsy of what they really have eaten. An accident it was. Crime scenes were taken care by Genji. Rosa discovered suit-Beatrice was Sayo in disguise and was told Kinzo was dead. THey agreed to collude to cover up the crime.

The next day, Rosa went to find Genji and Shannon in the study. She could not find Shannon (pretending to be Kanon at the time). They moved to Jessica's room.

Shannon's disguise was blown. Jessica was heartbroken about the death of Yoshiya. Rosa came, startled by the fact that Kanon was Sayo in disguise as well. She questioned how much more secrets Shannon and Genji were holding besides Shannon being the suit-Beatrice . Jessica heard and yelled if Shannon was the murderer of her parents. Rosa was afraid of Shannon telling the truth or Jessica discovering the truth, she killed Jessica from behind. (Gunshot). Shannon proposed to cover this up by using the stakes and Beatrice.

Kanon(Yoshiya) was killed in Jessica's room, by euthanasia, conducted by Nanjo. Therefore no conflict with the red texts.

The latter twilights had so many possibilities that I had not decided on yet. But I am more inclined to Genji having his own agenda and Rosa was just cooperating since this provided alibi for Rosa.


EP3:

Well, Sayo and Yoshiya got killed for real in this episode. The body discovered in chapel was real (Yoshiya's body). Well, initially, except Kinzo and Yoshiya, none were dead but was undergoing a plan to force the adults to resolve their struggle to solve the epitaph. Nanjo knew it so he was an accomplice as well. However, someone discovered the plan and turned this plan for real.


EP4:

Since Krauss was forced not to hide Kinzo's death anymore, the first witch letter became redundant (it acknowledged Kinzo's wellbeing). Sayo needed to change her plan of faking deaths to test the siblings, and decided a second method of testing the family. Again, someone took over and killed everyone.

Kanon (Sayo) was the ninth to die. Kanon (Yoshiya) was dead before the incident.


Hence, the trick of EP6 how Battler escaped was the mixing between Kanon (Sayo) and Kanon (Yoshiya).

The dirty trick in EP5 was that it did not disproved Shkanon despite both showing up in the same time, as no reliable perspective was provided.


There were tons of hole in this construction (particularly EP3 and EP4, since I had not yet decided it was Sayo planning and killing people (mastermind) or she was just a tool (unknowing accomplice), though it was quite certain now she was the one disguising as Beatrice, teaching Maria magic). SO feel free to demolish the above hypothesis.
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Old 2010-05-21, 07:48   Link #10398
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I like your theory, ijriims, even though it has some weak points. It's probably one of the best I have read so far, even though I obviously prefer mine xD
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Old 2010-05-21, 07:51   Link #10399
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
I don't think Kinzo would make Shannon the heir, after all he said he wouldn't even consider Eva being the heir because she is female.
I think Battler is exaggerating a lot about Kinzo's chauvinism.

Erika has her flaws but as much as irritating she is, she can make valid arguments when she isn't blatantly trying to create false accusations.
Her reasoning about the epitaph being a mean for Kinzo to select the new head is most certainly correct.
However the fact that the challenge was opened to everyone, females and males alike, prove that Kinzo doesn't care about the heir's sex anymore.
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Old 2010-05-21, 08:24   Link #10400
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So, you're still going under the idea that interaction between meta and non-meta exists? Then I'm still calling utter bullshit.
Using non-detective characters to prove the existence of Beato is useless. Knox's 9th: It is permitted for observers to let their own conclusions and interpretations be heard. Unless we have it in red that Beato exists on the game board, or that Battler, in a reliable narration, says he saw her, you can't use it.
And in Episode 4, Battler did not see her. It was dark out and raining, and he's supposed to see someone three stories up from him? There's no way this is a valid reliable narration.
One thing, when has ever been said the there are no connection between meta and non-meta? I don't remember anything like that, on the contrary, as a matter of fact, there are many hints that lead to this conclusion.

As it regards the woman Battler met in EP4, even though we are not sure she is Beatrice, we are sure Battler sees a woman that looks a lot like the one in the picture.
As it reguards Beato's existence, it is also useless to try to prove her non-existence, unless we have it in red.
On the contrary, we have many hints that lead to her existence in the real world: Knox 9th it is obviously true, but if someone lies, we have to ask ourselves "why has he lied?".
Now, tell me why Kyrie, Maria, Rosa and Genji should have lied in EP2 (they were on dinner and Battler was there, so that's not a fantasy scene). In my theory, every time someone lied there was a clear motivation, but here I cannot see any motivation leading them to lie, so I almost feel as if I can trust them a bit.
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