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Old 2010-05-21, 09:08   Link #10401
Jan-Poo
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the problem of meta affecting real world is that it implies there is magic working in the real world.

A true antifantasy perspective cannot accept such idea. If you do, you are not really antifantasy.

I am antifantasy, therefore since Episode5 I adopted what is now called "author theory" to explain otherwise inexplicable events.
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Old 2010-05-21, 09:21   Link #10402
KnightOfTwo
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*sigh* I hate to be getting involved in this but I will put my two cents in.

Linkin, in regards to the red concerning Kanon, according to your theory a human Beatrice is the culprit and kills Kannon at the start of 3 of the games. Later you use this red as a support of your theory when "Kanon dies" In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon! but that doesn't make any sense. You have Beatrice as a person on the island who had killed Kanon at the start of the game and who commits the crimes throughout, and yet it can be stated that no one killed him? tell me in what way that makes sense. The only way it could that I see would be
a) Kanon is not dead
b) Kanon accidentally died
c) Shkanon (which I am highly against)

Also you say Shkanon has merit yet you disprove it yourself when you talk about Kanon being killed and Shannon disguising as Kanon. You even said in defense of the above red that it fit because you can't killer a corpse, implying that Kanon has a corpse meaning a body separate from Shannon. In which case Shannon is actually just pretending to be Kanon to which I use Knox's 8th: It is forbidden for the case to be solved with clues that are not presented. Have we ever been given indication that Kanon is dead at the start?

In regards to you asking where we are given indication of Kanon faking his death in the boiler room, EP 5 shows us that those involved in the first twilight fake their death, so Kanon faking his death would not be outside the realm of possibility.

Lastly, you keep arguing for us to make a counter theory to your own. We are not trying to explain all the mysteries, we are trying to show you that your theory does not explain everything and that it has flaws.

I am not trying to be rude or berate your theory, I am trying to show you it has holes in it.
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Old 2010-05-21, 09:22   Link #10403
Raiza Sunozaki
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Since this rant got a little long, I spoiler-wrapped it to preserve space.

Spoiler for size:

Last edited by Raiza Sunozaki; 2010-05-21 at 10:07. Reason: Long post is long.
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Old 2010-05-21, 10:16   Link #10404
Linkin Battler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KnightOfTwo View Post
*sigh* I hate to be getting involved in this but I will put my two cents in.

Linkin, in regards to the red concerning Kanon, according to your theory a human Beatrice is the culprit and kills Kannon at the start of 3 of the games. Later you use this red as a support of your theory when "Kanon dies" In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon! but that doesn't make any sense. You have Beatrice as a person on the island who had killed Kanon at the start of the game and who commits the crimes throughout, and yet it can be stated that no one killed him? tell me in what way that makes sense. The only way it could that I see would be
a) Kanon is not dead
b) Kanon accidentally died
c) Shkanon (which I am highly against)

Also you say Shkanon has merit yet you disprove it yourself when you talk about Kanon being killed and Shannon disguising as Kanon. You even said in defense of the above red that it fit because you can't killer a corpse, implying that Kanon has a corpse meaning a body separate from Shannon. In which case Shannon is actually just pretending to be Kanon to which I use Knox's 8th: It is forbidden for the case to be solved with clues that are not presented. Have we ever been given indication that Kanon is dead at the start?

In regards to you asking where we are given indication of Kanon faking his death in the boiler room, EP 5 shows us that those involved in the first twilight fake their death, so Kanon faking his death would not be outside the realm of possibility.

Lastly, you keep arguing for us to make a counter theory to your own. We are not trying to explain all the mysteries, we are trying to show you that your theory does not explain everything and that it has flaws.

I am not trying to be rude or berate your theory, I am trying to show you it has holes in it.
That red "In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!" refers to the moment when someone is killed in boiler room, after the 2nd twilight, and it is impossible for anyone to kill Kanon in that moment since he is already dead, that's what I meant ^^
As it regards the Knox 8th, I had already showed the clues:
Spoiler for ShKanon:

However, I'm happy you try to counter my theory, I don't think it is perfect or it can explain the whole mistery, but I'm almost sure it has some points and I am the first to say it can also be wrong. I'm not like Erika, I personally like it very much to revise it xD


Quote:
However, I can use this. Where is there proof that Beato disguised herself as Shannon? By Knox's 8th, clues must be shown if you are to assume she did so. Or is this another one of your assumptions we must go along with?
Basing on the various hints we can reconstruct Beato's life and mixing it with the sin of six years ago we find this, but also the fact that Shannon remembers very well the Battler of 6 years ago could be a proof... however, they are all weak clues.

Quote:
Not by your theory they are. Let's see here... there are 17 people alive at the beginning of the game board. Under your theory, all possible people who could take these spots are: Krauss, Natsuhi, Eva, Hideyoshi, Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa, Jessica, George, Battler, Maria, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, Kumasawa, Nanjo, Erika and your Beatrice. Nineteen people. If we are to use Shkanon to eliminate one before the beginning of the game board, we have eighteen. In order to still fit your theory, you must have another person not exist. Of course, the easiest person for this is Erika. But once again, how does this allow your theory to fit into Episode 6? Don't just ignore it, if your theory is "perfect," then the answer should naturally come up. Your theory is not perfect if it doesn't.
I don't remember of a red like that. They only say there are no more than seventeen people on the island. Basing on the assumption that the game starts at 00:00 of 4th Oct. and finishes at 24:00 of 5th Oct. I think that Kanon is killed before the sibling arrives, but after the 00:00 of 4th Oct. So he is killed after the start of the game and it does not influence the setup, since it is already in game. So even if it was Shannon being killed it doesn't mind, the setup doesn't change. I don't know if I explained myself well xD)

Quote:
Kanon's "death" is easy to explain. He's not dead. In order to excuse himself from the watch of paranoid Natushi, he faked his death. The red is only true if Kanon is dead. It's like the red regarding Erika in Episode 5: that she ups the possible maxium number of people in Episode 5 to 18 (even though we learn this is not true in Episode 6). Because of this, we are led to believe that she exists, even though she doesn't. Blind faith in the red leads to a misinterpretation.
Now, I don't think so: I can say whenever I want after the starting of the game no kind of human or dead person on the island could kill Kinzo! because Kinzo is already dead at the moment I say it. Nothing change if I say it referring to a precise moment in the past. (no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kinzo!).

Quote:
Once again, you have provided no proof for Shannon or Kanon to be dead before the game begins. This is also a critical flaw in all Shkanon theories. There exists debatable proof that Shannon or Kanon is pretending to be the other in several of the Episodes, but no proof to why they are doing so? This requires an assumption, which is why your theory remains a theory and can never become a solution; a solution must offer no assumptions on the theorist's side, and only use facts from the games.
I can agree that Erika may arrive on the island, already dead, but I am more partial to the theory that she just never arrived on the island in the first place.
Also, you are once again, refusing to explain Episode 5. Because it's too difficult? Umineko's supposed to be challenging. Because there is not enough information? Bullshit. All the information you need to solve it is in Episodes 1-4. Ryuukishi has said that if you completely understand the first four Episodes, then solving the Episodes afterwards is easy. And for you, who boasts that you have found the answer to Umineko, this should be no problem then. Still too hard? Then don't boast that you have! Solve everything, then try saying that!
I know how does EP5 ends, all the people dies because of the explosion, but I refuse to explain EP5 not because it's too much difficoult, on the contrary, it is too much easy, I can present a theory with almost anyone as the culprit, if what I think is true, i.e.
"First I’d like to try to explain what “The Land of the Golden Witch” is in my opinion. IMHO the whole Episode V is “Land of the Golden Witch”: in the previous arc there was Battler as the detective and so we could have trusted both what he sees and the red truth. However, in this arc the detective was Erika, but I think (and I’ve been told that in Episode 6 it has been confirmed, even though I’m not sure) she has never reached the island, or better, she has reached the island as a corpse, so she is nothing more than “The illusion of the Detective”. Then in Episode 5 there is no one as the detective (it should be Erika but she is not on the island or she is a corpse) and so there is not an objective point of view and that means that the whole Episode is “Land of the Golden Witch” or, to put it better, the whole Episode is put before the interpretation of the game master, as it was in the previous game for the scenes Battler did not see directly. And this is also supported by the fact that there are some scenes with Erika that sounds like “fake”, fantasy, even though she should have an objective point of view, such as when she say “I have the authority of the detective, allow me to see the corpses!” and everyone stand back to let her see the corpses and so on. So personally I think that trying to explain Episode V is quite difficult, since we don’t have enough information, we could create a theory setting almost everyone as the culprit, as also Battler did, setting himself as the culprit. The calls from the 19 years ago boy I think they are all fake (except for the one that happened before the conference)... If it is as I said, this “Land of the Golden Witch” is sure a dirty trick!"

Quote:
(7) Have you read my part talking about "Land of the Golden Witch"? However, how do you think that EP1 First Twilight could be fake?!? With also Krauss between them and Battler acknoledging Krauss's half face missing? Come on, tell me. And the same goes for EP2 First Twilight.
Simple: here is my theory for Episode 1's first twilight, using Rosa as the mastermind culprit.
For Reason X, the adults decide to use some of the islands population to create a false murder on the island. Rosa, seizing the opportunity, volunteer herself and Shannon, an accomplice. They intend to appear as dead, with no obvious wounds, by using Natsuhi's medication to knock everyone out. Nanjo is in on the plan, so that a false diagnosis of death can be done. Rosa replaces her and Shannon's knock out pills with Maria's, claiming that they are for herself. Since Maria's are weaker, they do not properly knock them out. After the other four are knocked out, Rosa kills them, and with Shannon and Kanon's help, moves them to the shed. Kanon then locks the shed, with Rosa and Shannon using make-up to create the illusion of them being dead.
Episode 2 can be explained with similar ideas.
Shannon calls all the adults to the chapel, an isolated place where she can prove that she has discovered the gold. I am using Oliver's Broken Chapel Lock theory to escape the whole key problem. She presents herself as the Beatrice who wrote the letter Maria reads at dinner, and all the adults accept this. The adults then attempt to fake their deaths for Reason Y, the eerie Halloween party Shannontrice's idea. Rosa excuses herself, under the excuse that she thinks it might be too traumatizing for Maria to see her dead. However, once her and Shannon leave the chapel, she waits a while for Shannon to disappear and the death fakers to "kill" themselves, and then re-enters the chapel, and kills and mutilates the other parents.
There are ways to explain things without relying on a non-existent Beatrice, as I have proven. Please don't think I haven't spent a long time thinking on these mysteries Ryuukishi has given us, as I have.
The same goes for you too though, it seems. While most of what you write is merely recycled theories, some of it does have merit. I just stand in near total opposition to it, so I must disagree with what you write. [/QUOTE]
What about Knox 8th?
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Old 2010-05-21, 10:25   Link #10405
Raiza Sunozaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linkin Battler View Post
I don't remember of a red like that. They only say there are no more than seventeen people on the island. Basing on the assumption that the game starts at 00:00 of 4th Oct. and finishes at 24:00 of 5th Oct. I think that Kanon is killed before the sibling arrives, but after the 00:00 of 4th Oct. So he is killed after the start of the game and it does not influence the setup, since it is already in game. So even if it was Shannon being killed it doesn't mind, the setup doesn't change. I don't know if I explained myself well xD)
I don't have the time to counter all your response at the moment, but I can counter this. Episode 6's end provides us with a definite confirmation:
Erika: Nice to meet you, hello! I am Furudo Erika, a detective!! I may be an uninvited guest, but please welcome me!! I am the visitor, the eighteenth human on Rokkenjima!!
Battler and Beato: We're very sorry, but even if we welcome you, the number of people is seventeen.
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Old 2010-05-21, 10:31   Link #10406
Jan-Poo
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The calls from the 19 years ago boy I think they are all fake (except for the one that happened before the conference)... If it is as I said, this “Land of the Golden Witch” is sure a dirty trick!"
Sorry If I don't read the whole things you write. Sadly I don't have much time available to read all the posts in this forum right. But if you don't mind I'd still like to discuss about some details like this one.

You said that the calls are fake, however I think it can be said with certainty that
a person whose age is exactly 19 years exists
at the same time: there is no person in this story that is known to have 19 years
The mysterious person that is said to have 19 years is the master of the world created by Beatrice. At the time this was stated, Battler was the master, however if you believe that Battler is Kyrie's son, then Battler can't possibly have 19 years. This leaves us with only one option:
Beatrice has 19 years.


And if Beatrice has 19 years, then why it's impossible that she made herself the calls to Natsuhi?
Also if Beatrice and Shannon are the same person, wouldn't it be a further proof that the man from 19 years before is in fact Beatrice?
Wouldn't it actually be useful for your whole theory the fact that Beatrice is able to change her voice in a way to make it sound like that of young man?

Quote:
I don't have the time to counter all your response at the moment, but I can counter this. Episode 6's end provides us with a definite confirmation:
Erika: Nice to meet you, hello! I am Furudo Erika, a detective!! I may be an uninvited guest, but please welcome me!! I am the visitor, the eighteenth human on Rokkenjima!!
Battler and Beato: We're very sorry, but even if we welcome you, the number of people is seventeen.
This red doesn't make sense no matter at how you look at it.
If Erika is a dead body that washed into the island, she is not a "visitor". A dead body can't possibly be considered a "visitor" by someone in his right mind.
If Erika is a codename for an existing person then she is not an uninvited guest.

However if Erika is a real person and alive, then shkanon must be true. But in that case she couldn't possibly say she was the 18th human.
Even if "human" is including dead bodies, then she should be the 19th human because of Kinzo.
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Old 2010-05-21, 10:57   Link #10407
Linkin Battler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
I don't have the time to counter all your response at the moment, but I can counter this. Episode 6's end provides us with a definite confirmation:
Erika: Nice to meet you, hello! I am Furudo Erika, a detective!! I may be an uninvited guest, but please welcome me!! I am the visitor, the eighteenth human on Rokkenjima!!
Battler and Beato: We're very sorry, but even if we welcome you, the number of people is seventeen.
Yes, I know, and so? °°
The number of people is really seventeen: Beatrice + the four sibling + the four cousins + the three respective spouses + Genji + Kanon or Shannon + Kumasawa + Nanjo + Gohda
1+4+4+3+1+1+1+1+1 = 17
I told you in my opinion only the corpse of Erika arrived on the island. Or else there is the talk about the apple. I can say in red I have two apples in my hands, even though I actually have three.

Quote:
Sorry If I don't read the whole things you write. Sadly I don't have much time available to read all the posts in this forum right. But if you don't mind I'd still like to discuss about some details like this one.

You said that the calls are fake, however I think it can be said with certainty that
a person whose age is exactly 19 years exists
at the same time: there is no person in this story that is known to have 19 years
The mysterious person that is said to have 19 years is the master of the world created by Beatrice. At the time this was stated, Battler was the master, however if you believe that Battler is Kyrie's son, then Battler can't possibly have 19 years. This leaves us with only one option:
Beatrice has 19 years.


And if Beatrice has 19 years, then why it's impossible that she made herself the calls to Natsuhi?
Also if Beatrice and Shannon are the same person, wouldn't it be a further proof that the man from 19 years before is in fact Beatrice?
Wouldn't it actually be useful for your whole theory the fact that Beatrice is able to change her voice in a way to make it sound like that of young man?
Never mind about not havin read it all ^^ However, yes, you're right, I also think a person whose age is exactly 19 exists and it is Beatrice.
I also thought almost everything you said (except the part of Shannon being Beato xD), but it actually was impossible, since the boy of 19 years ago was actually a boy and moreover her goal is not to make someone experience fear. And it isn't to have revenge on someone either. And there is also the fact Beatrice's life is almost very clear taking the various hints scattered around...
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Old 2010-05-21, 11:06   Link #10408
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However, sorry for the double post but I have a very important thing to ask you all:
in EP4 almost everyone said to Battler that Kinzo has appeared, that the murders were being done with magic [and that Shannon is alive]. Except for the last one that is only a theory, we have the confirm that the previous two were a lie, so what is the point of making Battler believe in magic? I think it is impossible that everyone gathered together and says "let's believe Battler-kun in magic for joke, while killing each one of us" xD
So I reached the conclusion that they must be obliged to, but I can't think of anyone else other than Beato .-. And also about ShKanon... the hints are too much, I think that something true there must be ...
I think that this can ONLY be explained with a connection between metaworld and real world, I don't find any way out.
Furthermore in the EP2 Rosa goes around screaming Beatrice at 24:00, while she expressed that she wanted to be in the parlor and not going out. Don't you think it is could be a proof that there is a connection between Beato and Rosa in EP2?
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Old 2010-05-21, 11:18   Link #10409
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Originally Posted by Linkin Battler View Post
Yes, I know, and so? °°
The number of people is really seventeen: Beatrice + the four sibling + the four cousins + the three respective spouses + Genji + Kanon or Shannon + Kumasawa + Nanjo + Gohda
1+4+4+3+1+1+1+1+1 = 17
I told you in my opinion only the corpse of Erika arrived on the island. Or else there is the talk about the apple. I can say in red I have two apples in my hands, even though I actually have three.
Let it be known that in accordance with Knox 8, proper foreshadowing that Shkannon + Ghost Erika admits arbitrary Person X theories has been presented.
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Old 2010-05-21, 11:36   Link #10410
Linkin Battler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Let it be known that in accordance with Knox 8, proper foreshadowing that Shkannon + Ghost Erika admits arbitrary Person X theories has been presented.
As it regards ShKanon there are more then enough:

Evidences of Kanon's/Shannon's illusion: Battler, the detective, NEVER NEVER NEVER sees them together, not even once. In EP4 Battler finds only four corpses of the people who were in Kyrie's group, even though there should be five corpses. In EP2 Beatrice says in red that Kanon is dead at the time of the 2nd twilight, but Shannon, Gohda and Genji say he appeared, so they are without any doubt lying. Zepar and Furfur are also an evidence of that. Why putting a trap in Umineko? I don’t think it is accidental, try to think about it: Zepar and Furfur are clearly the metarepresentation of Shannon and Kanon. They should be, in fact, of a different gender, just as Shannon and Kanon (and in fact the tips confirm they are of a difference gender), but even considering that, they both appear to us as a girl. Why? Simple, because when we see Shannon or Kanon they are always the same person (in nearly every Episode Shannon). Another hint that leads to Shannon's/Kanon's illusion is that in EP4 ??? Lambda says "the identities of all UNIDENTIFIED corpses are guaranteed "instead of saying "ALL the identities are guaranteed", and that is because there was the identity of one "identified" corpse that was not confirmed: I am referring Shannon's corpse, that, even though half of her face has been blown away, should be confirmed since half of the face was safe. But in fact, that was Kanon's corpse, who has been killed on the previous day, before the arrival of the siblings. As a matter of fact, that corpse was the most hidden and is seen only by Nanjo and, for a little time, by Hideyoshi.
As ot regards Erika, we can count her as the 18th people, since Beato and Battler said "There are 17 people", not "There are no more than 17 people".
However, Lyrical, would you mind reading my whole theory and allow me to know what do I think about it?
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Old 2010-05-21, 11:59   Link #10411
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Originally Posted by Linkin Battler View Post
However, sorry for the double post but I have a very important thing to ask you all:
in EP4 almost everyone said to Battler that Kinzo has appeared, that the murders were being done with magic [and that Shannon is alive]. Except for the last one that is only a theory, we have the confirm that the previous two were a lie, so what is the point of making Battler believe in magic? I think it is impossible that everyone gathered together and says "let's believe Battler-kun in magic for joke, while killing each one of us" xD
So I reached the conclusion that they must be obliged to, but I can't think of anyone else other than Beato .-. And also about ShKanon... the hints are too much, I think that something true there must be ...
I think that this can ONLY be explained with a connection between metaworld and real world, I don't find any way out.
Furthermore in the EP2 Rosa goes around screaming Beatrice at 24:00, while she expressed that she wanted to be in the parlor and not going out. Don't you think it is could be a proof that there is a connection between Beato and Rosa in EP2?
Yes, I think Rosa and EP2Beato are linked. However, it's not possible to her to be Beatrice because of the candy scene, because Maria see actually 2 different people. So in EP2 I think it's Rosa+Someone dressed at Beatrice(Shannon) = Mastermind.
Once Battler said "I shall suspect the one that witness magic" or something like that, I think it's in EP3.
So I suspect Rosa. Moreover she was in the chapel!

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Old 2010-05-21, 13:43   Link #10412
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Originally Posted by Linkin Battler View Post
(1) Who said it is confirmed? It is just a theory I built up. And if you cannot disproove it, don't try just to show other possibilities, because the fact it was not the ONLY thing possible, it doesn't mean it is NOT possible, ok?
Your reading disability is showing again. Did you even read what I said? The point was about ERIKA. get a fucking clue.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Linkin Battler View Post
(2) The red texts about Kanon are those:
All of the survivors have alibis! Let us include the dead as well!!
In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!
Kanon did not commit suicide
Kanon did not die in an accident!

This red texts have a CONTEXT (yes, I know what it is ) and are referred to the moment when someone died in the boiler room.
Now, your theory about Kanon alive where does it bring? Kanon was alive... and so? Does this put in in a whole context that is related with Umineko solution? Have you found a possible solution that can explain almost everything of the Umineko games? Or else you are going to tell me Kanon is the culprit? And so if he wasn't dead Nanjo and Jessica lied for a cause X which there are no clues for in the whole game? Please, I'd like you to explain this. Until you don't give me a good explanation I'm going to think that "In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!" because he has already died the previous day. And I don't find it ridicolous, it is logical. If it was impossible for everyone to kill Kanon it was because he was already dead. Sorry, but I don't find the connection between the sentence "No one could have killed him" and your sentence "He faked his death". And so, if it was as you say, where are the clues? Don't you remember that Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED!!?
Let me put it another way. The detective and witnesses saw Kanon before he went into the boiler room. I already explained the lack of evidence for a Kanon or Shannon disguise in my last post. It is impossible for Kanon to have walked in there and "presumably died" because for you Kanon is already dead. Jessica, Kumasawa, Nanjo and Battler all saw him walk into the boiler room.

and really? The red is not a clue that Kanon faked his death? Battler just got done explaining after finding Kinzo's that ANY of the corpses could have been faked and you don't think there are any clues. Your a moron!

Quote:
And, come on, I understand you can not share the ShKanon theory, but do you REALLY think that the fact that Battler never sees Kanon and Shannon together, the fact that we don't find Kanon's corpse twice, the fact that someone is trying to create the illusion of a fake Kanon in EP2, even though he is already dead, the fact that George and Jessica always dies before Shannon and Kanon (except in EP5, but I already explained what I thought about EP5), the fact that it does not contradict any of the red said before, etc. are ALL a coincidence? I personally prefer to believe in something with a lot of clues supporting it and that could help resolving the game, rather then in... nothing?
Are you kidding? The red in episodes 1-4 heavily contradict shkanon theory. It's not until episode 6 that we get ANY red supporting it.

Quote:
(3) Whoa! There surely is a big mistery behind the key that opens Kyrie's house, behind the ticket of the boat she used to reach Rokkenjima and - above all - under 100 yen coin! Sorry if I haven't already explained that, my theory is completly falling down! I explained the number 07151129 and the cigarette butt, but in comparison with a 100 yen coin they have no points at all! And sorry if I lost a lot of red throughout the game, as you say I don't know what a context is! Can you please show the red that are in contraxt with my theory? D:
(4) You're right, sorry! The argument "Shannon and Genji are not the culprits since Kinzo attested their presence" is more than convincing! And also Rosa is not suspect at all in EP2! And... haven't you read how I had explained EP2 so far?
I'm asking you to include evidence in your theory so it's complete. if you can't even do that I'm not going to even listen to you.

Quote:
(5) You're right, the fact they have the same height, they have almost the same face and all hints shown in Episode from 1 to 4 are not enough, sorry!
This is the only time in the entire game Shannon an Kanon have EVER been compared by appearance and it's not supportive of Shkanon.
Spoiler for space:


Quote:
Sorry if I have been harsh, but I hate people who acts as if they have understood everything while they do not actually show anything.
That's what your doing buddy
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Old 2010-05-21, 13:43   Link #10413
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
The number of people is really seventeen: Beatrice + the four sibling + the four cousins + the three respective spouses + Genji + Kanon or Shannon + Kumasawa + Nanjo + Gohda
1+4+4+3+1+1+1+1+1 = 17
I told you in my opinion only the corpse of Erika arrived on the island. Or else there is the talk about the apple. I can say in red I have two apples in my hands, even though I actually have three.
So basically you are saying that both ghosterika and shkanon are true, allowing the existence of the x person Beatrice?

However EP6 suggests shkanon as much as it suggest shannontrice. In fact Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice are found in the very same predicament. If you claim that Shkanon must be true at least to some degree because there are many hints about it, then why don't you say the same about shannontrice?

Even though we see a scene where an X person admits to have created a Beatrice-like personality so that she could love Battler?

Look at what zepar and furfur say to Beatrice:

Quote:
紗音も嘉音も、駒である君ももちろん!あなたたちはみんな家具!魂が一人分に満たないから人間 以下ッ

Shannon and Kanon they all are "piece", and of course you too! All of you are furniture! Since you are a fraction of a whole person's soul you are less than humans.
So if you accept that Kanon and Shannon are the same person, then how can Beatrice not be the same?
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Old 2010-05-21, 14:06   Link #10414
J the Drafter
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Episode 1 thought. I just got through playing the part where Eva and Hideyoshi are in their room, and it almost seemed like they were expecting to die. Hideyoshi told Eva how wonderful life with her had been up to that point. We know that Eva and Hideyoshi left the nighttime meeting under vague circumstances, and that they went to the guesthouse when they left, instead of the room Natsuhi had prepared for them in the mansion. I'm wondering if Eva and Hideyoshi didn't witness something related to the murders that they're not sharing. (I do know that Battler and co. never asked Eva and Hideyoshi about that night.)
It's possible Eva and Hideyoshi were offered to take part in a plan to fake their deaths, and refused to join in.
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Old 2010-05-21, 14:18   Link #10415
Raiza Sunozaki
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Age: 21
Spoiler-wrapped for size, again.

Spoiler for size:
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Old 2010-05-21, 15:16   Link #10416
Linkin Battler
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[QUOTE=Raiza Sunozaki;3058326]Spoiler-wrapped for size, again.

Spoiler for size:
As it regards Kanon... who said he's not dead? That red could be interpreted both "he cannot be killed since he is already dead" and "he cannot be killed and in fact no one has killed him", I think is useless to talk about it since both the interpretation have the same level of validity.

Well... as it regards the Ist twilight I actually think it is weird that the most hidden corpse is actually also the one whose identity is not confirmed by red. There is also Krauss, but I think there is no doubt about his identity.
As it regard Shannon, Shannon remembers almost everything of Battler because assuming that she were friend with Beato, she obviously always talk about "his love".
As it regard metaBeato, she is the humanBeato of EP1, and suitBeato in EP4 is humanBeato of EP4 and there is a clear scene where they talk toghether. If she was Shannon or Jessica Battler would have recognized the voice.


However, the "exchange" that happened six years ago was obviously only for those two day, Shannon is Shannon and "Beatrice" is "Beatrice", the exchanged just for the time of the family conference of six years ago.


However, with my theory I should be able to explain even EP5, the culprit is always the same one, humanBeato. Also, the murders should continue even after Natsuhi being acknowledged as the culprit, since the servants will "separate" the group and other people will be killed until 24:00 when will happens the explosion.
To say "how" Beato killed them is not difficult, since we don't know how, where and when they were killed and without this information with can imagine all the most crazy killing method.
As it regard EP6 I haven't played it, so I don't know whether it is solvable or not with my theory, even though I'm not too much sure about it... However, remember that in both EP5 and EP6 we don't have a detective (in EP5 it should be Erika but imho she reached the island as a corpse, and in fact even though she should be the detective, there are fantasy scenes with her, such as when she uses her "detective authority") so we don't have an objective point and we can trust only the red, not the narration. In fact those are not "question arcs", but "core arcs". Personally I think this is the "dirty trick" Ryu07 talked about, couldn't it be?

For Zepar and Furfur also my interpretation is good, I don't think that is the problem.

However, as it regards EP2 I interpret the fantasy scenes where everyone acknowledge as a scene where Beato shows them the three ingot and says she has the gold, so everyone accept her as the true owner or something like that. My explanation of EP2 is that:

Before the arrival of the siblings, Beatrice kills Kanon and obliged Shannon to disguise herself as Kanon, telling her that if she wouldn't, she will kill George (and in fact Shannon dies before George)

Beatrice appears in front of Maria and Rosa and gives the letter with the key (which she used before to unlock the chapel) to Maria and the other letter to Rosa.
After the dinner, the letter, etc., probably late after midnight, Beatrice appears in front of the siblings who were discussing and bring them to the chapel, where she says she has something to show them. Probably, before going to the chapel, Beatrice tells Rosa to take Maria’s letter without opening it and without waking her up and in this moment Rudolph or Kyrie did the scribbles on Natsuhi’s door.

I twilight (and also the explaining of the fantasy scene where everyone acknowledge Beatrice as a witch): After having brought them in the chapel, where there are all the halloween decoration (or maybe she put them afterwards), she shows them the gold ingot and explains them that she is an illegittimate heir and has all the gold. They acknowledge she as an heir (because she knows the location of the gold), but soon she kills them with a gun. The only one who does not get killed is Rosa and Beatrice proposes her a pact (further down I also wrote why I think this): she (Beatrice) has to kill other 7 people, but in exchange of some favours and her silence, Beatrice will give Rosa the chance to choose who not to kill (and she obviously choose Rosa and Maria) and will give her part of the gold (100 milion yen as for everybody?). Then she said that they will meet again tomorrow at 24:00, always in the chapel. She also says to Rosa “don’t try to do anything suspicious if you want me to follow the pact I’ve done with you, I have a lot of allies in the mansion” or something like that and that’s why she does not say anything and has the obsession for the “Wolves and Sheep puzzle”, but also the motivation because of she took the gun with her. The motivation I think of this are the following: (1st) in the chapel in the fantasy scene also Rosa appears, but she is the ONLY one who does not die, don’t you find it weird? and (2nd) in the end of the Episode there are Rosa and Maria who doesn’t want to go out from the parlor, but notwithstanding, we find them in the chapel exactly at 23:59 with Rosa screaming: “Beatriceeeee? Where are youuuu? Maria?!? Do you know where Beatrice is?!?”, isn’t this a clear proof that Rosa has a pact with Beato?. (3rd) We hear her lying about the existence of Kinzo (when she says she has gone to take Kinzo’s gun. I did not understand if she claim to have really seen Kinzo, however), (4th) the sentence of Beatrice: “show me what will you do, dance for me, Rosa!” or something like that and also other things I don’t remember now @_@
However, after Beatrice killed them, Rosa opened Maria’s letter (it is already 5th Oct and this does not conflict with “Starting when Maria's key was received, and until the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day, it passed through no one's hands!!”), closed the chapel and Beatrice put again the wax with the ring she has.

II Twilight: There are many people who could have killed them, it’s not difficult at all to explain Jessica closed room.

IV-V-VI-VII-VIII Twilight: metaBeatrice said that Kanon was dead in Jessica's room in red and humanBeatrice obliges the servants (Gohda Shannon and Genji) to lie about Kanon saying he has appeared and about Nanjo's and Kumasawa's corpses being in the servants' room. humanBeatrice called Nanjo and Kumasawa out and then she killed them.
As it regards the letter, it could have been possible for Rosa to put it there or also for Maria. And that’s not all, if the servant’s room had a window Beatrice could have taken the key relative to the parlor, put the letter there and the close the parlor without any problems at all. Then Beatrice kill Shannon, Gohda and George in Natsuhi’s room and then hid until Rosa and Battler opened the doorm checked the corpses and went out, after not having done any inspection of the room at all. The Beatrice comes out from her hiding place (an armchair probably) and goes out.

IX Twilight: Battler surrenders to the witch and believes in his existence, so he loses his role as the detective (he has not anymore an objective point of view, that’s way he could not be the detective anymore) and that’s why he sees Kinzo alive in the study and the golden butterflies. Meanwhile Rosa and Maria had gone to the chapel (we don’t know why, but probably for the motivation I said before, the pact between Rosa and Beato) at 24 o’clock, but suddenly the explosion begins. That’s why the game master interpretation is that they sees golden butterflies following them, the explosions! And that’s why Rosa says “we have to escape from this island, here there is nothing but death! Let’s reach the sea and then swim, swim, swim”.
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Old 2010-05-21, 16:00   Link #10417
SeagullCrazy
Endless Witch-Doctor
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
However if Erika is a real person and alive, then shkanon must be true. But in that case she couldn't possibly say she was the 18th human.
Even if "human" is including dead bodies, then she should be the 19th human because of Kinzo.
Just wanted to point out that the bold part is not that certain.
I've already made a theory to deny both Shkanon and Ghost-Erika (explained here and here)

So far there hasn't been a single piece of certain evidence that proves Shkanon must be true. Don't needlessly assume there are no other possibilities, because there's always still a chance of it being wrong.
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Old 2010-05-21, 16:20   Link #10418
Judoh
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linkin Battler View Post
However, with my theory I should be able to explain even EP5, the culprit is always the same one, humanBeato. Also, the murders should continue even after Natsuhi being acknowledged as the culprit, since the servants will "separate" the group and other people will be killed until 24:00 when will happens the explosion.
To say "how" Beato killed them is not difficult, since we don't know how, where and when they were killed and without this information with can imagine all the most crazy killing method.

I am 100% certain that you cannot explain episode 5 with this theory.

Your theory has a big burden of proof here . Episode 5 practically confirms a human Beatrice does not get involved in the murders. It also confirms fake deaths.

Beatrice keeps her promises. Beatrice promised in her letters and to Maria that if the epitaph were solved she would not murder anyone. I've already shown you that according to episode 5 Beatrice has no realistic motive to kill anyone on the game board. Furthermore your human Beatrice theory relies on Maria and Kumasawa's perspectives for her to exist. Well both of those people would beleive she couldn't murder anyone in episode 5. Kumasawa says that it's not possible for Beatrice to be the murderer when Hideyoshi's corpse is found she says that this is something Beatrice wouldn't do. The epitaph was already solved at this point.


Spoiler for Beatrice's promise:


In other words, the number of people in this parlor now is equal to the total number of people on this island. If your Beatrice is a human person she must exist in the parlor in episode 5. She has to be in this room to be part of the total number of people. We saw no human Beatrice in the parlor. Due to this red It is impossible for your person X Beatrice to exist as a human person unless she is somebody else. Even if you claim she is represented by Erika or some other person it is possible for anybody to claim somebody else represents Erika or that other person or that they are the person themselves rendering your theory entirely useless. Furthermore there is a red saying Erika does not exist in the worlds before this one, nor does she influence them. Your Human Beatrice cannot be represented by Erika without in turn influencing the past games and breaking Knox's 7th! You cannot counter this!!

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-05-21 at 17:25.
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Old 2010-05-21, 17:15   Link #10419
Realus
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Join Date: Aug 2007
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Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linkin Battler View Post
That red "In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!" refers to the moment when someone is killed in boiler room, after the 2nd twilight, and it is impossible for anyone to kill Kanon in that moment since he is already dead, that's what I meant ^^
But he is not dead. And he does not not die. If it is impossible for anyone to kill Kanon in the boiler room, then he simply does not die. It is not said in red that Kanon was killed, it was said that it was impossible for anyone to kill him.
This is nothing new, Linkin. The chance that Kanon faked his death then has been around since Episode 1.
Quote:
As it regards Kanon... who said he's not dead? That red could be interpreted both "he cannot be killed since he is already dead" and "he cannot be killed and in fact no one has killed him", I think is useless to talk about it since both the interpretation have the same level of validity.
I disagree that he -has- to be faking. I'm sure there are other ways around the red. (Although, my believe is that he is in fact, faking.)

However, I do not see "He cannot be killed, since he is already dead" as a valid option at all. There is no time tense in the context if I recall correctly about this red.
If he was killed at any time during the first game, I'd think it would count as him being killed.
If he was in fact killed, he would have to have had a way he was killed. And this way would have had to have been a Trap/Sickness/Accident/Suicide/Murder.

Either the Japanese of this line doesn't support what I say. (I'm not looking at the original text at the moment)
Or it seems you don't understand that line very much. Your trying to twist it around to fit your theory, when the line isn't allowed to be viewed that way.

----------

Quote:
If she was Shannon or Jessica Battler would have recognized the voice.
Uh, why?

3rd floor of the house + Rain + Windy Conditions. All of these can hamper hearing.

Let's not even touch on the fact that people can attempt to fake voices? He's never heard "Beatrice" before, so they don't need something they need to match. It just has to be different from their normal voice.

Oh, and if you're really desperate, you can use the whole "You are incompetent!" red truth.

(Although, I don't believe that's really a red truth. Same as people laugh in Red, Ange calling Battler home reds, or Dlanor's Finished/Death reds.
I think those are all just showing it's important, and setting the mood.)

=====================

Quote:
Now, I don't think so: I can say whenever I want after the starting of the game no kind of human or dead person on the island could kill Kinzo! because Kinzo is already dead at the moment I say it. Nothing change if I say it referring to a precise moment in the past. (no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kinzo!).
Please don't post made up red, ever.

Now that that's out of the way, no you cannot use that Red because of that. As I said in the beginning part of my post.

The only reason that might be true, is the (fact?) that Kinzo passed away via his Health.
If that scene was fantasy, and covered up for someone maliciously killed him (With Poison [Drugs], or Weapon and whatnot) then that is no longer even valid.
(And no, I don't believe that's the case)

Quote:
My explanation of EP2 is that:

Spoiler for Length:
Please stop copy-pasting your theory to answer questions.
I believe the ones poking holes into it have already read it. When we want a counter argument, we want something relevant, and about our question. Not a reiteration, word for word, of what you've already posted already.

=========================

Anyway, my biggest problem (no, not my only problem, I have lots of them) with your theory is the fact that Shannon has to die before the game starts in Episode 4.

For what reason, Meta and/or Gameboard related, does Beatrice choose to kill Shannon, ONLY on this specific episode?

Does your theory have any reason except: "Kanon is the 9th person to die. So I can't have Kanon dead at the start of -all- games. So I need Shannon dead instead."
If that really is the reason, it seems like a huge cop-out on your part. And your just trying to throw together anything that fits.
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Old 2010-05-21, 17:44   Link #10420
Marion
The Great Dine
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Spoiler for response:


Sorry, but I can't bother myself with this theory when your explanations are hinged on blaming Beatrice, the one person we have been told not to blame. Hell I didn't like pony theory that much, but at least they understood that putting all the blame on a human Beatrice is against what the entire game is trying to say.
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