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Old 2010-05-21, 17:57   Link #10421
Raiza Sunozaki
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I was going to counter your latest mega-post, Linkin Battler, but then the internet decided to die on me, and Realus covered most of what I wanted to say anyway.

But what still irritates me about your theory is that your still haven't explained how it get's around what I mentioned before. By Knox's 2nd, it is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique. Umineko is an even game, so everything that goes for Battler goes for Beato, and vice versa. If Battler is not allowed to use supernatural agencies to solve the mysteries (which is he isn't, by Knox's 2nd), then Beato is not allowed to use supernatural agencies to commit the murders.
I don't think there's much doubt the meta-world counts as a supernatural agency.
So she can't use Meta-Beato to assist in the murders, she can't communicate with Meta-Beato if it means that it helps with murdering people, and she can't rely on Meta-Beato for anything.
Doing so is confusing fantasy with mystery. Umineko has elements of both, yes; but anybody with some moderate intelligence could separate the two. Not doing so is an insult to the mystery genre.
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Old 2010-05-21, 18:01   Link #10422
Linkin Battler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I am 100% certain that you cannot explain episode 5 with this theory.

Your theory has a big burden of proof here . Episode 5 practically confirms a human Beatrice does not get involved in the murders. It also confirms fake deaths.

Beatrice keeps her promises. Beatrice promised in her letters and to Maria that if the epitaph were solved she would not murder anyone. I've already shown you that according to episode 5 Beatrice has no realistic motive to kill anyone on the game board. Furthermore your human Beatrice theory relies on Maria and Kumasawa's perspectives for her to exist. Well both of those people would beleive she couldn't murder anyone in episode 5. Kumasawa says that it's not possible for Beatrice to be the murderer when Hideyoshi's corpse is found she says that this is something Beatrice wouldn't do. The epitaph was already solved at this point.


Spoiler for Beatrice's promise:


In other words, the number of people in this parlor now is equal to the total number of people on this island. If your Beatrice is a human person she must exist in the parlor in episode 5. She has to be in this room to be part of the total number of people. We saw no human Beatrice in the parlor. Due to this red It is impossible for your person X Beatrice to exist as a human person unless she is somebody else. Even if you claim she is represented by Erika or some other person it is possible for anybody to claim somebody else represents Erika or that other person or that they are the person themselves rendering your theory entirely useless. Furthermore there is a red saying Erika does not exist in the worlds before this one, nor does she influence them. Your Human Beatrice cannot be represented by Erika without in turn influencing the past games and breaking Knox's 7th! You cannot counter this!!
That's right! I personally think you can be right, but however there could be something like that: The number the people in the parlor being equal to the total number of the people on this does not mean that all the people on this island are on the parlor... there could be a dead person and that person can be Erika, since she has arrived dead on the island and then they rescued her and brought in the parlor... As it regard Beatrice being Erika I never thaught something like that xD However... it also depends what it means with "in the parlor". In that scene we see both Kanon and Shannon and Erika, but that could probably be a fantasy scene. If that is the case, then even though in the real parlor there are 17 people (maybe because of Erika being dead or because of ShKanon, remember the point of view is not objective in EP5 if Erika reached the island dead) in THIS parlor there could be more than 17 people, exactly 18, because it there is a living Erika, the illusion of the detective or else because of ShKanon. And if that's the case, a human Beatrice is still allowed to exist.
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Old 2010-05-21, 18:09   Link #10423
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linkin Battler View Post
That's right! I personally think you can be right, but however there could be something like that: The number the people in the parlor being equal to the total number of the people on this does not mean that all the people on this island are on the parlor...there could be a dead person and that person can be Erika, since she has arrived dead on the island and then they rescued her and brought in the parlor... As it regard Beatrice being Erika I never thaught something like that xD However... it also depends what it means with "in the parlor". In that scene we see both Kanon and Shannon and Erika, but that could probably be a fantasy scene. If that is the case, then even though in the real parlor there are 17 people (maybe because of Erika being dead or because of ShKanon, remember the point of view is not objective in EP5 if Erika reached the island dead) in THIS parlor there could be more than 17 people, exactly 18, because it there is a living Erika, the illusion of the detective or else because of ShKanon. And if that's the case, a human Beatrice is still allowed to exist.
Don't ignore my point. That's not how this red works you are ignoring the facts just like you did over and over before. 18 sprites were shown to us in the parlor. One of them was Erika's.

My Blue truth still stands. You cannot prove any of these people are a human Beatrice. And she has to be in the parlor to be a human person. If you claim she is somebody else in the room anyone can claim they are not or that they are somebody else in turn. Anybody here can claim no human beatrice was seen by the witnesses and that therefore she does not exist. Your theory's base has been destroyed.
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Old 2010-05-21, 18:15   Link #10424
KnightOfTwo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linkin Battler View Post
That's right! I personally think you can be right, but however there could be something like that: The number the people in the parlor being equal to the total number of the people on this does not mean that all the people on this island are on the parlor... there could be a dead person and that person can be Erika, since she has arrived dead on the island and then they rescued her and brought in the parlor...
A corpse cannot be counted otherwise Kinzo would factor into the count.
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Old 2010-05-21, 18:16   Link #10425
Linkin Battler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Realus View Post
I disagree that he -has- to be faking. I'm sure there are other ways around the red. (Although, my believe is that he is in fact, faking.)

However, I do not see "He cannot be killed, since he is already dead" as a valid option at all. There is no time tense in the context if I recall correctly about this red.
If he was killed at any time during the first game, I'd think it would count as him being killed.
If he was in fact killed, he would have to have had a way he was killed. And this way would have had to have been a Trap/Sickness/Accident/Suicide/Murder.

Either the Japanese of this line doesn't support what I say. (I'm not looking at the original text at the moment)
Or it seems you don't understand that line very much. Your trying to twist it around to fit your theory, when the line isn't allowed to be viewed that way.

----------


Uh, why?

3rd floor of the house + Rain + Windy Conditions. All of these can hamper hearing.

Let's not even touch on the fact that people can attempt to fake voices? He's never heard "Beatrice" before, so they don't need something they need to match. It just has to be different from their normal voice.

Oh, and if you're really desperate, you can use the whole "You are incompetent!" red truth.

(Although, I don't believe that's really a red truth. Same as people laugh in Red, Ange calling Battler home reds, or Dlanor's Finished/Death reds.
I think those are all just showing it's important, and setting the mood.)

=====================



Please don't post made up red, ever.

Now that that's out of the way, no you cannot use that Red because of that. As I said in the beginning part of my post.

The only reason that might be true, is the (fact?) that Kinzo passed away via his Health.
If that scene was fantasy, and covered up for someone maliciously killed him (With Poison [Drugs], or Weapon and whatnot) then that is no longer even valid.
(And no, I don't believe that's the case)



Please stop copy-pasting your theory to answer questions.
I believe the ones poking holes into it have already read it. When we want a counter argument, we want something relevant, and about our question. Not a reiteration, word for word, of what you've already posted already.

=========================

Anyway, my biggest problem (no, not my only problem, I have lots of them) with your theory is the fact that Shannon has to die before the game starts in Episode 4.

For what reason, Meta and/or Gameboard related, does Beatrice choose to kill Shannon, ONLY on this specific episode?

Does your theory have any reason except: "Kanon is the 9th person to die. So I can't have Kanon dead at the start of -all- games. So I need Shannon dead instead."
If that really is the reason, it seems like a huge cop-out on your part. And your just trying to throw together anything that fits.
No, the motivation is that in the other EP she planned to kill everyone after the night and after George gave Shannon the ring and I personally don't see Kanon getting red because of the ring... however she in this arc planned to kill everyone befode midnight, thus deciding to save Kanon once.

And sorry for posting with the red, it was just an example, I'm gonna editing now xD

You have a point, we have no warranty that person was the human Beatrice I talk about.

However as it regards Kanon I disagree: that red referred to precise moment of the story, i.e. when one person has been killed in the boiler room. And in that moment no one could have killed Kanon, since he is already dead, you cannot kill people twice! I don't find anything weird at all. And remember there was also the door of the boiler room leading to the garden open and the culprit could have passed with that, so if someone was faking his death on the first twilight he could have killed or else also Beatrice could. But it does not matter, no one could have killed Kanon.
And I cannot understand why Kanon has to have been dead by accident
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Old 2010-05-21, 18:19   Link #10426
Linkin Battler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Don't ignore my point. That's not how this red works you are ignoring the facts just like you did over and over before. 18 sprites were shown to us in the parlor. One of them was Erika's.

My Blue truth still stands. You cannot prove any of these people are a human Beatrice. And she has to be in the parlor to be a human person. If you claim she is somebody else in the room anyone can claim they are not or that they are somebody else in turn. Anybody here can claim no human beatrice was seen by the witnesses and that therefore she does not exist. Your theory's base has been destroyed.
I don't wanna prove that: Lambda says that the number of people in THIS parlor is equal to the total number of the people on this island.
However, if that was a fantasy scene where 18 sprites were shown, if THAT parlor did not reflect the real parlor, there is no problem assuming what I said.
Lambda precisly said "in THIS parlor" so I can interpret it if I want, I don't see anything weird.
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Old 2010-05-21, 18:24   Link #10427
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linkin Battler View Post
I don't wanna prove that: Lambda says that the number of people in THIS parlor is equal to the total number of the people on this island.
However, if that was a fantasy scene where 18 sprites were shown, if THAT parlor did not reflect the real parlor, there is no problem assuming what I said.
Lambda precisly said "in THIS parlor" so I can interpret it if I want, I don't see anything weird.
So now your saying this parlor is not the real parlor? Are you going to deny that the word "dead" really means "dead" also? Knox's 2nd. It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective TECHNIQUE.

I will not allow magic rooms like that to exist!

EDIT: Oh and also: Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED!!

Was it ever shown that fantasy scenes can take place in rooms that are not actually the real rooms on Rokkenjima?

EDIT2: Episode 3 shows that there are more than one of each room on different floors. The room Shannon was killed in for example was the "first floor parlor". The room Gohda was killed in was the "third floor waiting room". Considering the structure of the mansion it is not unreasonable for Lambda to say "this parlor" in red since it has been shown that more than one parlor can exist on each floor.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-05-21 at 18:40.
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Old 2010-05-21, 18:31   Link #10428
Raiza Sunozaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linkin Battler View Post
I don't wanna prove that: Lambda says that the number of people in THIS parlor is equal to the total number of the people on this island.
However, if that was a fantasy scene where 18 sprites were shown, if THAT parlor did not reflect the real parlor, there is no problem assuming what I said.
Lambda precisly said "in THIS parlor" so I can interpret it if I want, I don't see anything weird.
So now you don't want to prove it? Are you just really bad at admitting your own faults? This parlor is the only parlor that exists on Rokkenjima. Unless Lambda is talking about the parlor in the Kuwadorian, which would mean there are no people on the island. But we know there are 17 people on the island. So there is only one parlor she can be talking about.
Face it, Linkin. Either your Beatrice has to exist in the mansion's parlor at the time Lambda says the red, or she doesn't exist. Which one is it?
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Old 2010-05-21, 18:37   Link #10429
Renall
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
I don't think Kinzo would make Shannon the heir, after all he said he wouldn't even consider Eva being the heir because she is female.
This was addressed, but exactly who said this? Kinzo said it in one of Eva's flashbacks. Eva has a massive compensation complex and feels the need to excel at everything out of clear feelings of inadequacy. In her mind, she shifts the blame for this onto her father considering her unworthy of the headship (which, you'll note, she believes that she totally deserves). But we don't actually know if this was really how Kinzo behaved.

In fact, it's contradictory to the epitaph if Erika's logic about its purpose is correct. The epitaph is conspicuously displayed, and apparently open to being solved by any old person who happens to do it. If indeed anyone who solves it becomes the next head (and while we aren't sure this is true, it seems plausible), that means the "true" Ushiromiya Kinzo never cared beans about gender, social status, or even family relationship.

The Kinzo we have seen in Umineko up until this point is highly suspect. It is equally possible that every action undertaken by Kinzo is as distorted as Natsuhi's vision of a kind Kinzo.
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Old 2010-05-21, 18:42   Link #10430
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
This was addressed, but exactly who said this? Kinzo said it in one of Eva's flashbacks. Eva has a massive compensation complex and feels the need to excel at everything out of clear feelings of inadequacy. In her mind, she shifts the blame for this onto her father considering her unworthy of the headship (which, you'll note, she believes that she totally deserves). But we don't actually know if this was really how Kinzo behaved.

In fact, it's contradictory to the epitaph if Erika's logic about its purpose is correct. The epitaph is conspicuously displayed, and apparently open to being solved by any old person who happens to do it. If indeed anyone who solves it becomes the next head (and while we aren't sure this is true, it seems plausible), that means the "true" Ushiromiya Kinzo never cared beans about gender, social status, or even family relationship.

The Kinzo we have seen in Umineko up until this point is highly suspect. It is equally possible that every action undertaken by Kinzo is as distorted as Natsuhi's vision of a kind Kinzo.

I think the description Genji gave to Battler that they were similar in personality is probably the least distorted description of Kinzo we have. Although it's only briefly mentioned. So maybe all we should do is imagine what an old man Battler would be like? I'd think he'd be a fun and joking old man at a lot of times.
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Old 2010-05-21, 18:47   Link #10431
KnightOfTwo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
This was addressed, but exactly who said this? Kinzo said it in one of Eva's flashbacks. Eva has a massive compensation complex and feels the need to excel at everything out of clear feelings of inadequacy. In her mind, she shifts the blame for this onto her father considering her unworthy of the headship (which, you'll note, she believes that she totally deserves). But we don't actually know if this was really how Kinzo behaved.

In fact, it's contradictory to the epitaph if Erika's logic about its purpose is correct. The epitaph is conspicuously displayed, and apparently open to being solved by any old person who happens to do it. If indeed anyone who solves it becomes the next head (and while we aren't sure this is true, it seems plausible), that means the "true" Ushiromiya Kinzo never cared beans about gender, social status, or even family relationship.

The Kinzo we have seen in Umineko up until this point is highly suspect. It is equally possible that every action undertaken by Kinzo is as distorted as Natsuhi's vision of a kind Kinzo.
Makes sense and is practically the definition of Knox's 9th. All we ever see about Kinzo is other peoples interpretations. Also regarding the epitaph, it also goes along with what Okonogi says in EP4, that it was simply a way for Krauss not to automatically gain the headship without Kinzo having to go back on his decision.
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Old 2010-05-21, 18:50   Link #10432
Linkin Battler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
So now you don't want to prove it? Are you just really bad at admitting your own faults? This parlor is the only parlor that exists on Rokkenjima. Unless Lambda is talking about the parlor in the Kuwadorian, which would mean there are no people on the island. But we know there are 17 people on the island. So there is only one parlor she can be talking about.
Face it, Linkin. Either your Beatrice has to exist in the mansion's parlor at the time Lambda says the red, or she doesn't exist. Which one is it?
What I said is that if it is a fantasy scene and Lambda is referring to THAT parlor of the fantasy scene there are no contraddiction, but I also said that he can be right.
And I was answering to his "you cannot prove any of the person in the parlour is Beatrice", that was what "I did not wanna prove".
However, Lambdadelta said "In other words, the number of people in this parlor now is equal to the total number of people on this island", she did not say "All the people on this island are on the parlor", I personally think it is quite different that can also not be casual.
And, since it is the third time you (and I don't mean "you singular") are saying it, if I wanted my theory to stand I had just not to post it, if I have posted here is because I wanted to find the weak points, the leaks of my theory to know if he has to be revised or to be rejected. If I find something against this theory ok, but that Lamdbadelta text both for the context and for how it has been put, it can be interpreted in many ways. And that was something I thaught the first time I read EP5, even before creating the theory and it is not something I created "ad hoc".
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Old 2010-05-21, 18:54   Link #10433
Renall
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Originally Posted by KnightOfTwo View Post
Makes sense and is practically the definition of Knox's 9th. All we ever see about Kinzo is other peoples interpretations.
Is he the only example of this? Think about it. Kinzo is the most obvious example, as he never actually appears as a living human being outside the narration of another character or in a circumstance in which it is possible for him to be alive (he appears generally in scenes in 1-4, but on Oct. 4/5 1986, where he cannot possibly be alive). However, is there anyone else in the series, or any part of the series, in which a character's development is characterized solely by what other people think or say about them?
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Old 2010-05-21, 18:56   Link #10434
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Is he the only example of this? Think about it. Kinzo is the most obvious example, as he never actually appears as a living human being outside the narration of another character or in a circumstance in which it is possible for him to be alive (he appears generally in scenes in 1-4, but on Oct. 4/5 1986, where he cannot possibly be alive). However, is there anyone else in the series, or any part of the series, in which a character's development is characterized solely by what other people think or say about them?
Fair enough, Kinzo is just interesting in that we never really hear much about what Battler's interpretation of him is outside of fantasy scenes or from what other people say around him. I mean yeah he hasn't seen him in six years but still he is old enough to have an impression of him.
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Old 2010-05-21, 18:59   Link #10435
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Well, his relationship with Kinzo is rather remarkably blank, but that actually seems to be true of most of the cousins. Jessica doesn't seem to like him, George has met with him but we haven't seen what was said (and one or both of them may already know he's dead). The only apparent references to Maria are a scene in which ghost-Kinzo is lamenting his family's incompetence and Rosa's statement that Kinzo didn't want her to use the name Maria. We certainly don't seem to know what Maria thinks of her grandfather, though it's very possible she's never actually seen him.

Which kind of makes Rosa's claim that Maria was given the umbrella by Kinzo in ep4 a bit odd. How would Maria know what her grandfather looks like if he's been shut up in his room for nearly as long as she's been capable of assembling coherent memories?
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Old 2010-05-21, 19:01   Link #10436
SeagullCrazy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I think the description Genji gave to Battler that they were similar in personality is probably the least distorted description of Kinzo we have. Although it's only briefly mentioned. So maybe all we should do is imagine what an old man Battler would be like? I'd think he'd be a fun and joking old man at a lot of times.
This gives me a fun idea for a crackpot theory:

Spoiler for size:
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Old 2010-05-21, 19:03   Link #10437
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Well, Meta-Beatrice did want to create the ultimate mystery story...
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Old 2010-05-21, 19:04   Link #10438
Judoh
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At least it's not Kinzo is Battler from the future or Battler is his own grandfather.

I like it.

I'll add my own crackpot theory in response.

Spoiler for sin:
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Old 2010-05-21, 19:17   Link #10439
Renall
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
At least it's not Kinzo is Battler from the future or Battler is his own grandfather.

I like it.

I'll add my own crackpot theory in response.

Spoiler for sin:
Let's just keep compounding the tinfoil-hat crazy:
Spoiler for WHEELS WITHIN WHEELS:
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Old 2010-05-21, 19:24   Link #10440
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At first I thought it couldn't be taken seriously.... but maybe we're on to something!

I wouldn't put it past Kinzo after all!
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