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Old 2010-05-23, 14:27   Link #10521
NarkNarks
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
There's also the Battler Masterstroke perspective that he totally allowed all of this to happen, but nobody seems to have as much faith in Battler as I do to buy that.
Well he is incompetent

I quite like this theory of oliver's to be fair if we know that Erika does not exist how can we stick by the assertion that she acts as the detective if she does not have a piece on the game board. Yes she might act through a proxy on the board but that by no means ensures that the character that represents her on the board is the detective.
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Old 2010-05-23, 14:27   Link #10522
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
There's also the Battler Masterstroke perspective that he totally allowed all of this to happen, but nobody seems to have as much faith in Battler as I do to buy that.
Well, I wouldn't put it past Kinzo... er, Battler.

There is a chance that the entire setup was his complicated plan to resurrect Beatrice, in which case continuing Erika's delusion from previous game and humouring her would have to be an important part of that plan, and Erika's pathetic death in the end was just Battler and Beatrice finally throwing away a bothersome tool that is no longer needed.

It's just that prior to that Battler has usually shown himself to be incapable of such complicated activities, so it feels iffy... unless Kinzo's supposed ingenuity did get resurrected in Battler somehow by the same method.

The important bit for the current discussion is that No-Piece-Erika concept keeps working in either case.
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Old 2010-05-23, 14:28   Link #10523
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
There's also the Battler Masterstroke perspective that he totally allowed all of this to happen, but nobody seems to have as much faith in Battler as I do to buy that.
I'm not saying I believe it, but there's was one thing that struck me as kind of odd. When Battler presented his first logic error solution to Lambda, she reacted as if it was the most amazing thing she'd ever seen. But since she knows the truth of the game board, she should have seen all kinds of variations on "dead" people wandering around already. So what exactly was so incredible about Battler's solution that it provoked such a reaction from her?
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Old 2010-05-23, 14:40   Link #10524
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Battler also suggests that there's a fine line between insanity and genius, and is remarkably willing to refuse to concede ground to Erika even though everyone else tells him he might as well just let the bedroom thing go and regroup. Battler's stubborn, but is he that stubborn? He knows Beatrice has done the same thing, so it's hardly a game-ender.
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Old 2010-05-23, 14:45   Link #10525
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Battler also suggests that there's a fine line between insanity and genius, and is remarkably willing to refuse to concede ground to Erika even though everyone else tells him he might as well just let the bedroom thing go and regroup. Battler's stubborn, but is he that stubborn? He knows Beatrice has done the same thing, so it's hardly a game-ender.
I'm afraid I'll only be able to form a proper opinion on this subject when a properly translated Ep6 shows up, but I will agree it is a possibility.

Painting Erika onto the murderer he now knows about and being fully aware that in the end he's going to deny her anyway would be delightfully evil from him.
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Old 2010-05-23, 14:48   Link #10526
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Well, yes. There's really no evidence he did it, I just hate this "Battler screws everything he does up and has to be bailed out by people" thing and would like to see him doing something brilliant for once.
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Old 2010-05-23, 14:53   Link #10527
Shiro Kaisen
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Well, yes. There's really no evidence he did it, I just hate this "Battler screws everything he does up and has to be bailed out by people" thing and would like to see him doing something brilliant for once.
Truth-Enlightened Batter really comes off as more competent than his previous fumbling version. I can buy that.
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Old 2010-05-23, 14:56   Link #10528
Judoh
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
I'm not saying I believe it, but there's was one thing that struck me as kind of odd. When Battler presented his first logic error solution to Lambda, she reacted as if it was the most amazing thing she'd ever seen. But since she knows the truth of the game board, she should have seen all kinds of variations on "dead" people wandering around already. So what exactly was so incredible about Battler's solution that it provoked such a reaction from her?
What was Battler's first solution?
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Old 2010-05-23, 15:01   Link #10529
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Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen View Post
Truth-Enlightened Batter really comes off as more competent than his previous fumbling version. I can buy that.
I think it makes thematic sense, it's just entirely speculative:
  • Battler is now, as you said, more enlightened. So presumably he's less incompetent.
  • Yet Battler appears to screw up massively. So if he knew the truth, why would he do that?
  • Unless screwing up was intentional. But why would he do that?
  • He can't just want to beat Erika, because if his game is good enough, shouldn't he be able to do that anyway?
  • But beating Erika may not even be his goal. So what is his goal?
  • Pretty much his only other objective in the episode is reviving Beatrice. But he's told it's impossible and would take a miracle.
  • How do you obtain a miracle in Umineko? Take a ridiculous risk.
  • What is the greatest possible risk Meta-Battler can take? Risking his own existence by putting himself into a situation which he cannot escape unless Beatrice miraculously is able to figure it out.
Like I said, it makes sense, but not a single piece of evidence here can be backed up by anything other than thematic elements. Basically, if Battler turns around at the start of ep7 and says "By the way, I meant for that to happen," that's pretty much the only support he can offer for it. If he didn't say that, it would still play out exactly the same way. So how would we ever know?
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Old 2010-05-23, 15:01   Link #10530
LyricalAura
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What was Battler's first solution?
That he was rescued by one of the other first twilight victims. This was right before Erika declared that they were all dead.
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Old 2010-05-23, 15:05   Link #10531
Judoh
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For a second I was thinking that maybe it was possible that Erika was one of the first twilight victims since Beatrice says Erika is not the rescuer and I don't think there would be any contradictions since she can't kill herself. It would be an interesting twist if one of the victims that were supposed to save Battler wanted to kill him.

However this red got in my way.

All five of the people I killed... were perfectly alive until the exact moment I killed them.

bummer...

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-05-23 at 15:16.
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Old 2010-05-23, 15:17   Link #10532
SeagullCrazy
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
However this red got in my way.

All five of the people I killed... were perfectly alive until the exact moment I killed them.

bummer...
Just because she killed five people doesn't mean they were the same five victims of the first twilight. She could have killed 4 victims + someone in the cousin's room.
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Old 2010-05-23, 15:22   Link #10533
Judoh
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Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
Just because she killed five people doesn't mean they were the same five victims of the first twilight. She could have killed 4 victims + someone in the cousin's room.
I was thinking that too. but the reason I think she was able to kill those people was because, except for Battler, none of the victims were in sealed rooms. Each of them probably chose their own rooms to fake their death in.
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Old 2010-05-23, 15:26   Link #10534
SeagullCrazy
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I was thinking that too. but the reason I think she was able to kill those people was because, except for Battler, none of the five were in sealed rooms. Each of them probably chose their own rooms to fake their death in.
Wouldn't it be better for the culprit to be part of the victims, though? I mean, if you're part of the conspiracy, you would know the rooms everyone else is hiding in, right?

But I can't remember how Erika found each of the victims anyway. Did Gohda or someone tell her what rooms they were in?
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Old 2010-05-23, 15:28   Link #10535
Laserworm
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Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
Wouldn't it be better for the culprit to be part of the victims, though? I mean, if you're part of the conspiracy, you would know the rooms everyone else is hiding in, right?

But I can't remember how Erika found each of the victims anyway. Did Gohda or someone tell her what rooms they were in?
Didn't she look on from afar when they were going around the rooms in the morning. And then she drew pictures of each of the scenes.
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Old 2010-05-23, 15:32   Link #10536
Renall
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  • Ushiromiya Kyrie...cannot save Battler.
  • Ushiromya Natsuhi cannot save Battler.
  • Ushiromiya Eva cannot save Battler.
  • He's finished. Neither Rosa nor Maria can save him.
  • I properly re-killed them.
  • she completely severed all of the victims' heads.
  • All five of the people I killed... were perfectly alive until the exact moment I killed them.
Some thoughts:
  • If one of the FT victims were the killer, she (I'll say she since Battler is the only male victim and probably isn't the one responsible) would not be capable of saving Battler, because it isn't her intention to save him.
  • It is never explicitly stated that the five people killed are the FT victims, but the phrase "re-killed" sort of insinuates it.
  • "All of the victims" does not specify identities or a number. "All five" specifies a number, but it is possible that there were people Erika did not kill who were also victims and somehow had their heads severed.
Not much to say there, just suspicion of the red as always.
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Old 2010-05-23, 15:36   Link #10537
Judoh
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If the fifth person she killed was Kanon there aren't any problems with the red, but she probably thought it was Battler when she killed him...
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Old 2010-05-23, 15:39   Link #10538
Laserworm
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
If the fifth person she killed was Kanon there aren't any problems with the red, but she probably thought it was Battler when she killed him...
The only chance Battler had to escape was after I broke the seal.
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Old 2010-05-23, 15:41   Link #10539
Renall
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The only chance Battler had to escape was after I broke the seal.
Killer breaks seal, enters room, searches bathroom first and gets distracted by trap.

Battler leaves room.

Kanon enters room, sets chain, goes into closet.

Killer leaves bathroom, assumes Battler is in the closet, shoots it and kills Kanon.

I don't see any problem with a person thinking they'd killed Battler when they really hadn't.
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Old 2010-05-23, 15:43   Link #10540
Laserworm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Killer breaks seal, enters room, searches bathroom first and gets distracted by trap.

Battler leaves room.

Kanon enters room, sets chain, goes into closet.

Killer leaves bathroom, assumes Battler is in the closet, shoots it and kills Kanon.

I don't see any problem with a person thinking they'd killed Battler when they really hadn't.
yeah it makes sense, but it doesn't really help us solve anything...in the other closed rooms.
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