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Old 2010-05-24, 21:24   Link #10601
Judoh
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Like I said I don't think "murderer" is the only thing that Culprit strictly means. At least not to Battler. To Battler in his theory the culprit is a liar or something that causes murders to happen. He never claimed anywhere that he murdered anyone. If I really wanted to stretch it I could say it's George and Jessica that give Battler an alibi by observing him and not the other way around.

The thing I'd mostly like go with is that Due to his sin, a great many humans on this island die. I think that's why he's going with that theory in episode 5 anyway. He blames himself because he finally figured out how he caused the murders. Which is why he can pin himself as a culprit.
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Old 2010-05-24, 21:36   Link #10602
Kylon99
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Sorry to go off topic for a sec, but I had been searching for this for awhile with all the Everybodytrice theories flying around lately. (My favorite is the Kumasawatrice or Georgetrice not because I think they're true but because I have two really great (i.e. awful) pictures of that from those Umineko 4komas. 8) )


From EP1 ???? - Bernkastel is talking to 'us' or 'Battler' after Beatrice has left to prepare the next game.

Quote:
"First of all, about that girl.
She does have the name Beatrice, but that doesn't necessarily mean that she is 'one individual woman.'
See what I mean?
In other words, she's not some human.
Her existence is a personification of the rules of this world."
In other words, from the end of EP1, just mere moments after we've been introduced to her, we should have already known that very simple theories where "Shannon is Beatrice!" won't cut it. And Bernkastel bringing up the idea of the rules of the world and from her later TIPs, we know Beatrice is an amalgam of conspiracies, people dressing up and even the rigged explosion at the end.
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Old 2010-05-24, 22:36   Link #10603
NarkNarks
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A question ladies and gentlemen if you would be ever so kind to answer. In ep2 when battle attempts his fight back against the disappearance of Nanjo's and Kumasawa's corpse's resulting in beato's famous, resplendent with shocked beato face,You are incompetant! her laughter afterwards is also in red text.

I was wondering weather this was a mistake in how I'd installed the Eng patch (unlikely) or it was (more likely) a truthful expression of beato's joy of beating down Battler at his most triumphant. If anyone could answer I'd be most thankful, thank you kindly
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Old 2010-05-24, 22:38   Link #10604
Renall
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It's intentional. And so far Battler's proven the red right.
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Old 2010-05-24, 22:50   Link #10605
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Sweet.

A question though, if a number of the theories rely on people hiding in the rooms of the murder victims why would the story go so far in a early episode to attempt to disprove such a hypothesis?

Thanks though
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Old 2010-05-24, 22:53   Link #10606
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NarkNarks View Post
A question though, if a number of the theories rely on people hiding in the rooms of the murder victims why would the story go so far in a early episode to attempt to disprove such a hypothesis?
Two possibilities immediately jump out. One is that it was misdirection to lead a person far from the scent. It's a fun trick to make the solution obvious, then lead the reader away from it by making it seem like they're wrong when you really haven't excluded it at all.

The other is that theories which depend on those things are wrong.

There are various permutations between the two, of course.
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Old 2010-05-24, 23:04   Link #10607
NarkNarks
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Again thanks alot.

I'm rather new to mystery stories, watching Higurashi made me curious about Ryukishi work about year ago and I read through 1-4 back then. Since then I've finally finished Uni and have a few months of spare time on my hands so I decide (along with other things) to have a crack at Umineko again.

Apart from a pointless introduction thanks alot for the info again.
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Old 2010-05-25, 05:41   Link #10608
ijriims
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Well, well, assuming all scenes having Erika's name referred to as fake, then who was this Erika?

Even if we denied all scenes with Erika's presence, there were red texts referring to her.

We got so many red texts on her (rough translation by me, as I don't have the WH version):

古戸ヱリカは、これまでのベアトのゲームに影響を与えない。
(Before this game, Furudo Erika had no influence on Beatrice's game)

私が、探偵だからよ。 (Becase I am a detective)

親族会議以前に、ヱリカ、譲治、朱志香、真里亞、南條、郷田、熊沢は、屋敷より退出し、ゲストハウスへ移動 したものなり。 (Before the family meeting, Erika, George,,... moved to the guesthouse)


24時の時点で、屋敷以外に存在するのは、ヱリカ、譲治、朱志香、真里亞、南條、郷田、熊沢のみで ある
(At 00:00am, the people outside of the mansion is Erika, George....)

絵羽の封印も、ミス・ヱリカの封印と同一のものデス。この封印方法は、ミス・ヱリカと絵羽が晩餐後に共同で 考案したものだからデス。 (Eva's seal and Ms. Erika's seal are the same type. This method of sealing was designed by Ms. Erika and Eva after dinner)

ラウンジでのヱリカ卿の見張りは完璧なりや。わずかの隙も油断も、1秒の見落としも無きにけり 。(Erika's lookout in lounge is perfect....)

それが、朝まで室内の異常を監視していた探偵であるヱリカ卿に与えられなかった以上、犯行は不可能デス…! !(From the morning the room was monitored by Erika..... crime is not possible.)

探偵は古戸ヱリカだぜ、今回の俺は探偵じゃない!!(Furudo Erika is the detective. This time I am not the detective!!)

My question is: if Erika did not have a distinct body, then who are the "Erika"s referred to in the above red texts, even if the peron imposing as Erika can change at different moment? I have not included the red texts from Ep6 yet.
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Old 2010-05-25, 05:43   Link #10609
DgBarca
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Hum...for the golden truth, does EP6 say something about it. Who can use it and who can't ?
IMO, I think that the ones able to use it are the one that know the Rules X Y and Z.
I like the "justice" thing about it. Because it's described like "holy words" and is more like a finishing move, and it is what a judgement is.

Something like...

With the X blue truth that don't break the red truth, I aknowledge one on this theory as the truth.

In court only the judges can do that, but they don't need to know exaclty the truth, just the rules ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
Well, well, assuming all scenes having Erika's name referred to as fake, then who was this Erika?

Even if we denied all scenes with Erika's presence, there were red texts referring to her.

We got so many red texts on her:

古戸ヱリカは、これまでのベアトのゲームに影響を与えない。
(Before this game, Furudo Erika had no influence on Beatrice's game)

私が、探偵だからよ。 (Becase I am a detective)

親族会議以前に、ヱリカ、譲治、朱志香、真里亞、南條、郷田、熊沢は、屋敷より退出し、ゲストハウスへ移動 したものなり。 (Before the family meeting, Erika, George,,... moved to the guesthouse)


24時の時点で、屋敷以外に存在するのは、ヱリカ、譲治、朱志香、真里亞、南條、郷田、熊沢のみで ある
(At 00:00am, the people outside of the mansion is Erika, George....)

絵羽の封印も、ミス・ヱリカの封印と同一のものデス。この封印方法は、ミス・ヱリカと絵羽が晩餐後に共同で 考案したものだからデス。 (Eva's seal and Ms. Erika's seal are the same type. This method of sealing was designed by Ms. Erika and Eva after dinner)

ラウンジでのヱリカ卿の見張りは完璧なりや。わずかの隙も油断も、1秒の見落としも無きにけり 。(Erika's lookout in lounge is perfect....)

それが、朝まで室内の異常を監視していた探偵であるヱリカ卿に与えられなかった以上、犯行は不可能デス…! !(From the morning the room was monitored by Erika..... crime is not possible.)

探偵は古戸ヱリカだぜ、今回の俺は探偵じゃない!!(Furudo Erika is the detective. This time I am not the detective!!)

My question is: if Erika did not have a distinct body, then who are the "Erika"s referred to in the above red texts.
It may be like Kinzo in EP4.
My theory is that Kinzo's name is passed on as the title of the Ushiromiya family head! Ushiromiya Kinzo was already dead. And he passed 'that name' on to someone else! Everyone acknowledged that!! That way, 'All of those who met at the family conference recognized the existence of Kinzo'!! There wasn't even any need to disguise themselves as Grandfather. Because everyone recognized a new 'Kinzo'! Therefore, 'there's no way they were mistaken for someone else'!! As long as the preceding theory is not denied, nothing can change the fact that you are dead!!!

My theory is that Erika's name is passed on as the title of the guest! Erika was already dead. And she passed 'that name' on to someone else! Everyone acknowledged that!! That way, 'All of those who met at the family conference recognized the existence of Erika'!! There wasn't even any need to disguise themselves as Erika. Because everyone recognized a new 'Erika'! Therefore, 'there's no way they were mistaken for someone else'!! As long as the preceding theory is not denied, nothing can change the fact that Erika is dead!!!
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Old 2010-05-25, 06:17   Link #10610
J the Drafter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Like I said I don't think "murderer" is the only thing that Culprit strictly means. At least not to Battler. To Battler in his theory the culprit is a liar or something that causes murders to happen. He never claimed anywhere that he murdered anyone. If I really wanted to stretch it I could say it's George and Jessica that give Battler an alibi by observing him and not the other way around.

The thing I'd mostly like go with is that Due to his sin, a great many humans on this island die. I think that's why he's going with that theory in episode 5 anyway. He blames himself because he finally figured out how he caused the murders. Which is why he can pin himself as a culprit.
By all means do this. Let's see what comes up.
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Old 2010-05-25, 06:43   Link #10611
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
My question is: if Erika did not have a distinct body, then who are the "Erika"s referred to in the above red texts, even if the peron imposing as Erika can change at different moment? I have not included the red texts from Ep6 yet.
Most of these red statements do not require Erika to exist on the board. "Furudo Erika does not influence the games before this one" does not mean that she influences this one. "Furudo Erika is the detective" connects Meta-Erika and the metafictional concept of the detectve, it would be odder if someone real said they are "the detective" with game rights pertaining to one. There are only a few reds that actually necessitate an image of Erika and name of Erika to be bestowed on a real person, though neither of them requires them to be the same as Meta-Erika.

In particular, Erika has a location in red and seems to move in red (though it never says when), Erika has a lookout in red, and Erika designs seals with Eva in red.

I would rather avoid naming names until I see a properly translated Ep6 though.

P.S.: Is it just me, or is it that when Meta-Erika is mentioned in red, she is always "Furudo Erika"?
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Old 2010-05-25, 11:06   Link #10612
Raiza Sunozaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
P.S.: Is it just me, or is it that when Meta-Erika is mentioned in red, she is always "Furudo Erika"?
Running through the red text to see if this is true, I noticed a strange occurrence.
You are right, whenever people refer to meta-Erika, it's "Furude Erika", when referring to the Erika on the game board, it's just "Erika." Dlanor has her own weird way of doing it, calling meta-Erika "<Miss> Erika" and game board-Erika "Lady Erika."
But I thought about it, and looked through some other red text, and I noticed that Erika is the only person who receives this distinction. All other human characters that appear on the game board have their full names and given names used interchangeably throughout the red truth.
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Old 2010-05-25, 12:24   Link #10613
KnightOfTwo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
Running through the red text to see if this is true, I noticed a strange occurrence.
You are right, whenever people refer to meta-Erika, it's "Furude Erika", when referring to the Erika on the game board, it's just "Erika." Dlanor has her own weird way of doing it, calling meta-Erika "<Miss> Erika" and game board-Erika "Lady Erika."
But I thought about it, and looked through some other red text, and I noticed that Erika is the only person who receives this distinction. All other human characters that appear on the game board have their full names and given names used interchangeably throughout the red truth.
Wow, I completely missed that when I went through but yeah looking at it now, you and Oliver are quite right. Looks like we have another "Golden Land" vs. "village of gold" instance here. Most likely to show they are to distinct beings, which leads us back to "Erika" being a title held by someone on the board. Sorry for the obvious comment, I just can't believe I didn't pick up on this before.
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Old 2010-05-25, 14:13   Link #10614
Oliver
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A thought probably wrong, but why not:

Maria got a 'completely different name' from the one Kinzo wanted her to have, but still in the same design pattern. Rosa doesn't sound like she's the one to defy Kinzo openly, or at least, the first to go out and do it. One would think that if she dared to name her daughter Maria instead of whatever Kinzo wanted, prior experiments had to have occurred.

Could Jessica or Maria be the onboard "Erika"? If not, which red in particular stops them and when?
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Old 2010-05-25, 14:19   Link #10615
Judoh
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Maria doesn't work because the red places her in the first twilight in both of the chiru games.

Maria might work in episode 6 if you use my theory about episode 6's killer, but there are better candidates than Maria.

Jessica just doesn't make sense unless a title can somehow make her into two people. She also didn't want the epitaph to be solved while Erika did.

At 24:00, only Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa existed outside the mansion
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Old 2010-05-25, 14:41   Link #10616
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Maria doesn't work because the red places her in the first twilight in both of the chiru games.
But is the red saying she's dead said before or after the reds requiring "Erika" to be applied to a body? If it's after, she can still be one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Jessica just doesn't make sense unless a title can somehow make her into two people. She also didn't want the epitaph to be solved while Erika did.

At 24:00, only Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa existed outside the mansion
If you have a character named "John Lennon" and want to create the illusion there are two people, John, and Lennon, there's nothing literally untrue about saying "At 24:00, John, George, Paul, Ringo and Lennon were in this room." It will immediately become untrue if you add "for a total of five people" to this statement, because there's only four, but referring to the same person twice in a single location list is not a lie. As long as a candidate and "Erika" are not listed in separate locations explicitly, they can still be Erika.

As for 'Jessica did not want the epitaph solved', that is not strictly true, because she literally tells Battler that "we" (a list that has to include her, and probably includes George and Shannon) made an attempt to solve the epitaph during a prior conference.
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Old 2010-05-25, 14:48   Link #10617
Judoh
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Let me put it another way. Since both of them presumably "faked" their deaths and Natsuhi believes they are dead it is impossible for those people to corner Natsuhi as the murderer later without weird continuity problems. Therefore they cannot be Erika.
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Old 2010-05-25, 14:53   Link #10618
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Let me put it another way. Since both of them presumably "faked" their deaths and Natsuhi believes they are dead it is impossible for those people to corner Natsuhi as the murderer later without weird continuity problems. Therefore they cannot be Erika.
If the scene where Erika corners Natsuhi really required "Erika" to be there, yes. But as far as I remember it doesn't, there's no red saying "Erika" is there. It's one of those cases where Meta-Erika can be painted over any character on the board.
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Old 2010-05-25, 15:02   Link #10619
Kylon99
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Hey, if you're arguing that Erika is really another person, how do you get by this red text?

Furudo Erika only increases it by one person.
古戸ヱリカが1人増えただけ。


This is in response to Battler asking about the count of people on the island. (See, he was already wise to the red about there being no more than 17 people... 8) ) The red was used by Lambdadelta in response.
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Old 2010-05-25, 15:13   Link #10620
Judoh
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Besides her, the number of people on this island is exactly the same as it was in the previous games.

dying of hypothermia on the island can up the count to 18 temporarily. Moving on...
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