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Old 2010-05-27, 19:22   Link #10721
NarkNarks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Piece-Battler's train of thought clearly seems to mirror Meta-Battler's at times. Sometimes he'll stumble upon a new line of reasoning because Meta-Battler was doing so. That seems to be the extent of their connection in ep1-4.

What Piece-Battler's been up to in 5 and 6 though is anyone's guess. In 5 it's implied Bern played with him more directly to solve the epitaph, and in 6... well, Battler's behavior is very odd there, but everyone's behavior on the board is odd there.
Yeah I've been going through the episodes again for the and that is especially true when Battler is defending Kanon after Jessica's death. He clocks he's gonna get trapped by Beatrice and resigns, apparently he says it in both piece and meta world as george notices what he says something.

I can't comment on 6 but it seemed a bit odd.
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Old 2010-05-28, 04:09   Link #10722
Dlanor A. Knox
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in 6:
Didnt they all had their own will or something like that?

Because Beatrice somehow knew where they where, how they where and when they where at some place, like she was planning every step of every piece, the same is with Lambda.

Could it be that Battler doesnt know how to control the pieces as the new gamemaster?
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Old 2010-05-28, 08:19   Link #10723
Raiza Sunozaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Genji and Kumasawa are both inherently suspicious characters whose connections to Ronove and Virgilia make me seriously doubt the suspicions. But I honestly can't figure out what they are up to.
I'm with you on Kumasawa unknowingly assisting the cultprit with the muders, but I'm still puzzling out Genji. I'm stuck between whether he's a real culprit, going around murdering people, or (under the Stage Magic theory, which I really like) he's fufilling Kinzo's supposed will, and trying to create one last magic show for his good friend.

One thing about Kumasawa though. I'm sure she's more intelligent than she lets on, and she might be the one character Battler had an accurate judgement of personality on. I mean, if her personal artifacts that were passed on to her son have any merit, she was trying to solve the epitaph, and got to the point where she realized the chapel has something to do with it.
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Old 2010-05-28, 10:37   Link #10724
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
I'm with you on Kumasawa unknowingly assisting the cultprit with the muders, but I'm still puzzling out Genji. I'm stuck between whether he's a real culprit, going around murdering people, or (under the Stage Magic theory, which I really like) he's fufilling Kinzo's supposed will, and trying to create one last magic show for his good friend.
Something to ponder regarding Genji:

Kinzo is supposed to have never been on the frontlines in the war. Beside still meeting the experience that profoundly changed him, however, he also managed to somehow get Genji to feel indebted to him for the rest of his life and beyond the grave. At the time, Genji was probably a bit younger than Kinzo, who was about 30, but only marginally. There is nothing to connect them before the war, so it's not some kind of ancestral servant loyalty.

Just what kind of a situation could this possibly have been? There aren't a lot of options.

P.S. I keep thinking about some spy story, because Genji looks kind of like Richard Sorge would if he lived to see 1986...
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Old 2010-05-28, 20:34   Link #10725
DaBackpack
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Tangent:

Has anyone else noticed that the years in Umineko don't add up?

In Episode 3, when Kyrie is fighting Leviathan, she mentions being jealous of Asumu Ushiromiya for 18 years.

18 years ago, according to Kyrie, Rudolf impregnated Asumu and married her.

Buuuut, in Episode 5, something different is revealed to us in Natsuhi's phone conversation with the baby from 19 years ago.

Yes, the mysterious baby says something like this:

Quote:
I came back for revenge... ....Revenge for your crime 19 years ago.
Has anyone else picked this up? It certainly seems like something like an egregious error, but I'm starting to think that there might be some other significance to it.

How old is Jessica, again? I know that George is over 20 years old, and Battler is (supposedly) 19.

Any explanations?
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Old 2010-05-28, 20:44   Link #10726
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
Tangent:

Has anyone else noticed that the years in Umineko don't add up?

In Episode 3, when Kyrie is fighting Leviathan, she mentions being jealous of Asumu Ushiromiya for 18 years.

18 years ago, according to Kyrie, Rudolf impregnated Asumu and married her.

Buuuut, in Episode 5, something different is revealed to us in Natsuhi's phone conversation with the baby from 19 years ago.

Yes, the mysterious baby says something like this:



Has anyone else picked this up? It certainly seems like something like an egregious error, but I'm starting to think that there might be some other significance to it.

How old is Jessica, again? I know that George is over 20 years old, and Battler is (supposedly) 19.

Any explanations?

Battler's stated age is 18. It only says he's 19 one the wiki because people edited it after the reveal of the 19 year old master in the Chiru arcs. It's possible Battler's 19, but nobody has been confirmed for that age yet.

I'd look at Oliver's timeline for evidence about ages.
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Old 2010-05-28, 20:46   Link #10727
DaBackpack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Battler's stated age is 18. It only says he's 19 one the wiki because people edited it after the reveal of the 19 year old master in the Chiru arcs. It's possible Battler's 19, but nobody has been confirmed for that age yet.
I don't know--- while Meta-Battler incriminates himself in Episode 5, I'm a little hesitant to accused Piece-Battler until I found out exactly how old he is.

How old is Jessica? Isn't she 18, too?
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Old 2010-05-28, 20:52   Link #10728
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
I don't know--- while Meta-Battler incriminates himself in Episode 5, I'm a little hesitant to accused Piece-Battler until I found out exactly how old he is.

How old is Jessica? Isn't she 18, too?
Yes supposedly.

Jessica is also stated to be born under the same unlucky star as Battler. If we take that statement literally that could mean she has the same horoscope as Battler, which is Cancer, and that would limit her birth to June-July.

However if we use older astrology (like arabic astrology) it could means something completely different.

Or you could just say Battler's narration is lying. He does that a lot in episode 1.
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Old 2010-05-28, 20:55   Link #10729
DaBackpack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Yes supposedly.

Jessica is also stated to be born under the same unlucky star as Battler. If we take that statement literally that could mean she has the same horoscope as Battler, which is Cancer, and that would limit her birth to June-July.

However if we use older astrology (like arabic astrology) it could means something completely different.
If we do take this literally, then it just seems that "19 years ago" is just a typo. But I find it hard to believe that such an important detail would be screwed up.

Or... well, Battler could have been killed before he was born.

I'm starting to think that this whole 18-19 year thing is a sort of a red herring. Or one of the characters is lying or is just misinformed.

...If Meta-Battler is so stupid as to forget his own age.
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Old 2010-05-28, 20:57   Link #10730
Judoh
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Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
If we do take this literally, then it just seems that "19 years ago" is just a typo. But I find it hard to believe that such an important detail would be screwed up.

Or... well, Battler could have been killed before he was born.

I'm starting to think that this whole 18-19 year thing is a sort of a red herring.
Zepar and Furfur talk about it in episode 6 IIRC.
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Old 2010-05-28, 21:05   Link #10731
DaBackpack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Zepar and Furfur talk about it in episode 6 IIRC.
Can't read Japanese So no Episode 6 for me until the patch comes out.

But 19 years is not referenced before Episode 5, if I remember correctly. Before then, I do believe that they say that Battler is 18.

But really, I'm sure that Meta-Battler would have mentioned it after his epiphany/enlightenment if he truly thought that he was the baby from 19 years ago.

Oh, wait a minute. Battler was born sometime in July, right? And the conference is in October?

Well, it's a bit of a stretch, but I know how some people in real life like to round down when they give their age.

For instance, someone 18 and 3 months old would be 18.

Maybe Kyrie just rounded down and Battler rounded up?
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Old 2010-05-28, 21:51   Link #10732
Xeles
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
Buuuut, in Episode 5, something different is revealed to us in Natsuhi's phone conversation with the baby from 19 years ago.

Yes, the mysterious baby says something like this:



Has anyone else picked this up? It certainly seems like something like an egregious error, but I'm starting to think that there might be some other significance to it.

How old is Jessica, again? I know that George is over 20 years old, and Battler is (supposedly) 19.

Any explanations?

Maybe Battler and Natsuhi got the impression that the baby from 19 years ago was a male only because the caller used such a voice. If the caller had a feminine voice, then Natsuhi would cast more suspicion on Erika. After she questioned Genji on the details regarding her arrival, she calmed down a bit after hearing that the guest was female.
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Old 2010-05-28, 22:28   Link #10733
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeles View Post
Maybe Battler and Natsuhi got the impression that the baby from 19 years ago was a male only because the caller used such a voice. If the caller had a feminine voice, then Natsuhi would cast more suspicion on Erika. After she questioned Genji on the details regarding her arrival, she calmed down a bit after hearing that the guest was female.
It's a very interesting question, whether Natsuhi was really so unconcerned with the baby she supposedly killed that she did not even know it's gender. It feels like a stretch, then again, it's not impossible if her story is to be believed literally.

Mind you, I'm not so sure that extra baby really existed. There's nobody to support Natsuhi's words. There are no other witnesses, and neither Krauss, Genji or Kumasawa, who should have been in on this story, confirm or deny it. The story about a servant who suffered for disparaging Beatrice is fairly consistent throughout the rest of the text and doesn't quite match, neither does Rosa's story, so we can't even be sure they're the same one. And the scene where Natsuhi tells her story includes Erika, who is suspect to the gills with her detective perspective.
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Old 2010-05-29, 00:14   Link #10734
Xeles
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Quote:
Oh, wait a minute. Battler was born sometime in July, right? And the conference is in October?
That is weird though, why is Battler the only one with a known birthdate?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
It's a very interesting question, whether Natsuhi was really so unconcerned with the baby she supposedly killed that she did not even know it's gender. It feels like a stretch, then again, it's not impossible if her story is to be believed literally.

Mind you, I'm not so sure that extra baby really existed. There's nobody to support Natsuhi's words. There are no other witnesses, and neither Krauss, Genji or Kumasawa, who should have been in on this story, confirm or deny it. The story about a servant who suffered for disparaging Beatrice is fairly consistent throughout the rest of the text and doesn't quite match, neither does Rosa's story, so we can't even be sure they're the same one. And the scene where Natsuhi tells her story includes Erika, who is suspect to the gills with her detective perspective.

I forgot that Kumasawa was present in Kinzo's study with the baby. But that really is strange, she's the only one that could have had some insight on Natsuhi's dilemma and remained silent during her confession.

Either Natsuhi found the baby so repulsive from the shame of her infertility and refused to hold it, or it's gender is another part of her repressed memories. Other than all of her recollections skating over the topic of the baby's gender, there's Kinzo's reaction. If Rosa's Beatrice had died before this, he might have tried to raise another one within the confines of the main mansion, just under the guise of an heir.

The story about the servant falling down stairs and/or receiving a serious injury matches Beatrice's illusion slightly...but I don't know if that was possibly done to distract new servants who may have heard about the incident.
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Old 2010-05-29, 00:33   Link #10735
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeles View Post
That is weird though, why is Battler the only one with a known birthdate?
Because it's in 07151129. That's the only reason his birthday was mentioned. Jessica also said she doesn't know anybody who has a birthday in 11/29 (although we can't prove that since we don't know everyone's birthdays), but it could be a date of an event and not a birthday. Maybe it's the date Battler left the family for example.



Quote:
I forgot that Kumasawa was present in Kinzo's study with the baby. But that really is strange, she's the only one that could have had some insight on Natsuhi's dilemma and remained silent during her confession.
I think Kumasawa was in on the prank call somehow. What I'm more worried about is Krauss's disappearance. I don't know if anyone really had a chance to kidnap him, but somebody had to and there would have to be multiple people to restrain him.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-05-29 at 00:46.
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Old 2010-05-29, 01:16   Link #10736
Renall
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Krauss disappears yet calls after being "kidnapped" in the First Twilight twice, in ep4 and ep5. Might there be a pattern here?
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Old 2010-05-29, 09:59   Link #10737
Marion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Krauss disappears yet calls after being "kidnapped" in the First Twilight twice, in ep4 and ep5. Might there be a pattern here?
Well if you want to nitpick, Krauss isn't the one calling in EP 5. Presumably his killer is.
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Old 2010-05-29, 16:00   Link #10738
Renall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Well if you want to nitpick, Krauss isn't the one calling in EP 5. Presumably his killer is.
I've often wondered if perhaps faking being kidnapped is one of Krauss's panic options, possibly even tied with suicide (ep5 hints at the possibility he's suicidal). He just winds up getting killed off or something before he can put it into action. Or maybe suicide/disappearance really is his plan.
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Old 2010-05-30, 11:46   Link #10739
DaBackpack
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I've been thinking about some things Ryukishi07 said in interviews, and I present another way of thinking about the mystery.

The author said that many people have found solutions to individual mysteries, but that they are far from solving Umineko.

It seems to me like there is some sort of "event" that determines who dies and who becomes the culprit.

I'm going to call this the "key," which may or may not be the key described in the epitaph.
Here is a possible example:

Person A talks to Person B in Episode 1. Because of this conversation, Person B becomes the "culprit" for the episode. Person A is deemed the "mastermind."

In Episode 2, Person A talks to Person C. Because of this conversation, Person C becomes the "culprit" for the episode. Person A is still the "mastermind" for the series.

Now, is there any one person that talks to Eva in Episode 3 and Kanon in Episode 1 (assuming they are indeed the culprits of those episodes)?

The conversation need not be "I want you to kill this person," but it may be a certain "key word" that means "Hey, I choose you to do this for me."

After all, Ryukishi makes it seem like once the "key" has been found, all of the mysteries can be solved. The mysteries will be much easier to solve if we have a definitive idea of who the culprit is.
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Old 2010-05-30, 12:18   Link #10740
Judoh
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I think the "key" had to do with going back and solving all the closed rooms. He seems to think the murders are actually easy mysteries to solve. He had Battler say that in episode 5.
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